Round 1. LDragonFire v Whatukno: One Nation, Under the Military

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posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 01:58 AM
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The topic for this debate is "In the next 50 years, there is a serious risk that America might fall victim to a military coup".

LDragonFire will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Whatukno will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


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posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 06:13 AM
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I would like to thank ATS, The Vegabond, and my esteemed opponent Whatukno for this opportunity to participate in this debate tournament.

Our topic is "In the next 50 years, there is a serious risk that America might fall victim to a military coup" and I will attempt to show that this is a likely scenario.

The perils of Imperialism:
I will open this debate by looking at this from a historical view. Has a republic form of government ever been taken over by the military? The answer is Yes. Our government is modeled after the Roman and Greek republics, John Adams, and John Quincy Adams two of our founding fathers where inspired by the Roman political philosopher Cicero. Many of our political principals like separation of powers, checks and balances, government in accordance with constitutional law, fixed terms in office, where taken from Rome before it became a Empire. There are dangers in Empire and one of those is the threat of a military coup, at the end of the Roman Empire, they defeated themselves as much as from outside sources.

In 27 BC the Roman republic collapsed. The militant imperial projects undermined its constitutional government in the same ways that is occurring in America, there was a break down of human rights in Rome and is occurring right now in the USA. The USA has over 725 military bases all over the world, and with a huge military and the huge military budget that goes with it, there has ever been a larger threat to the USA Constitutional form of Government than this Imperial machine we have created. Imperialism and a Constitutional form of government cannot co-exist.

What is the will of the people? The people want to be safe and have a stable government, with a free constitutional republic there are threats because of the freedoms that such a republic enjoys, under a militant empire there is a since of security that you can’t have with a free and open society. The military industrial complex {MIC} seems to be an unstoppable machine, right now the USA has just less than three million people in our military active and reserve and our budget for 2007 was $439.3 billion, this ladies and gentleman is the threat {empire} that will untimely destroy our constitutional government, not terrorists or a rogue country, but we will destroy ourselves from within.

Political Ideology:
We are the great melting pot; our country has peoples from all parts of the globe. Now you have to ask yourself will the American public allow such a coup to occur. I say yes they would based on there ideological beliefs. Right now we have a conservative president in power, one that seems to ignore congress, and the courts. In all the areas that they are ignoring congress and the courts are based on ideas of Empire {War on Terrorism} and basic human rights {domestic spying, torture, political dissent}the military at this point has no reason to launch a coup, they are getting what they want. What happens when the will of the people goes against this MIC what happens when the people tire of war, and spending all this tax payer money on these wars and other programs?

Questions 1-5: What happens when a more liberal group are in control of the USA and attempt to scale back war spending, and pursue peace throughout the world? Will there be false flag ops designed to further a war like posture? Will the public believe such false flag ops? But the most important question is what will the military do? Will they go with the will of the people or will they do what ever is necessary to further there MIC empire?

With income tax supplying tax money to finance our MIC and empire building, with the growing oil prices, with the degrading of basic human rights, and an ever weakened constitution, it seems to be that a military coup is inevitable.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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Thank you ATS, Vagabond and my worthy opponent LDragonFire for this chance for a debate.

In this topic “In the next 50 years, there is a serious risk that America might fall victim to a military coup.” I will show how unlikely and practically impossible that this scenario is.

My point is going to be simple and straightforward, I will show that it is not the military brass that would carry out this coup but the troops themselves and how they through their own conscience would never follow such an order.

Pride, Tradition, Honor

These are the great hallmarks of our nations military. These principals are what every soldier, every marine, every airmen, and every seamen hold dear into their hearts. Before entering military service every single man and woman raises their right hands and swears an oath to protect and defend the constitution and this land against any enemy foreign and domestic.

A person that goes into the military no matter what service group does it for their country. Every single person that volunteers for our military would sacrifice their lives to defend our freedoms and our way of life. Without these men and women to actually fight on the ground in a supposed coup of our government, the coup would fail.

Unlike former ways that military personnel were recruited our military is all volunteer. Every man and woman that joins this nations military does so of his/her own free will. If they do not wish to belong to the military they have the option to quit. This is what makes our military strong and gives each and every person in the military the will to do what is right.

They fight they die for our freedoms. It is because of their service and their pride and honor that no coup would ever succeed. That coup in and of it self would be a domestic enemy that each and every serviceman vowed to defend against.

Checks, Balances and our Government

The way our government is structured no one individual holds enough sway over our military to perpetrate any sort of coup. The president may lead our nations military but it is congress that drives it. Without the approval and subsequent financial backing of our congress there is no fuel for the president to drive our military machine.

Conversely without our president there is no direction that the military could go. The top generals of our armed forces are directly under our president and he is the commander in chief.

No sitting president or no member of congress would want to run the risk of loosing the power they have in order to subvert our constitution and coup our government. While the American people may not agree with what is happening with our government we as a collective society know the ramifications of dismantling these united states as it stands. To coup the government of this country would mean an all out civil war.

Answers to questions 1-5

Q1. What happens when a more liberal group are in control of the USA and attempt to scale back war spending, and pursue peace throughout the world?

A1. Peace is the ultimate goal of our nations military. Peace at all costs.

Q2. Will there be false flag ops designed to further a war like posture?

A2. Many, in my estimation, the wag the dog effect works well to keep our military going. No servicemen wants to loose their job but at the same time no man or woman in our armed services would bite the hand that feeds it.

Q3 Will the public believe such false flag ops?

A3. Yep, usually hook line and sinker the mass majority of Americans still believe in our government and will believe what they are told.

Q4. What will the military do?

A4. The military being made up of primarily volunteer men and women will do what they feel is right by the constitution and the people of the United States. They will fight our enemies as long as they are told that these are their enemies.

Q5. Will they go with the will of the people or will they do what ever is necessary to further there MIC empire?

A5. They would go with the will of the people. In the event of a military coup what would happen is the leaders of the coup would become a domestic enemy and the pride and honor of the brave men and women in service to our military would not allow that to happen. They have taken an oath not to the military leaders but to our constitution and to our way of life. They will defend that way of life to the bitter end.

There is more danger in an all out civil war happening in our country before a military coup is allowed to occur.

Questions 1-5

Q1. How could a successful military coup occur in a country whose populace is as well armed as the people of the United States?

Q2. How many would desert the military in the case a military coup should occur?

Q3. What serviceman would fire upon the civilian population of this country?

Q4. What gain to whom would it benefit for a military coup to occur?

Q5. In the event of a military coup of the United States how long would it last before degenerating into all out civil war?

Our brave men and women of these armed forces would rather die than to see our government be overthrown. Their sense of pride and honor would prevent any sort of military coup to occur in this country, now or in 50 years. The oath they took they take seriously and to show how seriously they take it they are willing to put their lives on the line in order to defend that oath.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 02:23 AM
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Pride, Tradition, Honor


Originally posted by whatukno
These are the great hallmarks of our nations military. These principals are what every soldier, every marine, every airmen, and every seamen hold dear into their hearts.

This is a blanket statement, in a perfect world I would agree with you, but this isn’t a perfect world. Soldiers are trained to follow orders from there superiors, whether or not they are moral orders or not.


Originally posted by whatukno
This is what makes our military strong and gives each and every person in the military the will to do what is right.

The military does not train soldiers to follow orders that are right, just to follow orders. The soldier just because they are American does not automatically make them good or right, just check out some of the news headlines of late; there training does not necessarily make them Good people.

The all volunteer army is a very good point, however that all volunteer army has lowered its recruitment standards, this will have a overall effect, and it’s difficult for me to believe that this effect will be good.


Originally posted by whatukno
They fight they die for our freedoms. It is because of their service and their pride and honor that no coup would ever succeed. That coup in and of it self would be a domestic enemy that each and every serviceman vowed to defend against.


This is another good point; however history has shown us that the greatest motivator for the soldier is to fight for what they believe in. If the soldiers believe in and trust there commander, they can be used to destroy paradise in order to save it. If our civilian government can be shown to be a threat to our way of life, or just being unpopular, I think the soldiers could be motivated to join a coup. Some soldiers would be motivated just to be involved in creating a more militant society for security reasons.

Checks, Balances and our Government


Originally posted by whatukno
The way our government is structured no one individual holds enough sway over our military to perpetrate any sort of coup. The president may lead our nations military but it is congress that drives it.


You bring up some very good points here. A military coup could not survive if they took out congress, they would need the bureaucracy to run the government. A coup would involve members of the military replacing the president and vice president, and holding congress hostage if you will, congress would be forced to do there bidding, more than likely through threats against there families.

I have to agree with you that it would almost be impossible for one person to carry out a coup, but a group like the Joint Chiefs of Staff could do this. In order for this to occur, the soldiers must believe in these people, they must be willing to follow these people.

Look at history at the military leaders that have gone on to be president, Washington, Grant, Roosevelt, just to name a few, it is possible for military leaders to become so popular that most of our soldiers would follow them, but if a coup occurs it would most likely be a group of military leaders that enacts such a plan.

Q1. How could a successful military coup occur in a country whose populace is as well armed as the people of the United States?

A1. They didn’t seem to have a problem disarming the citizens in New Orleans after Katrina. This goes back to training that has been going on for years. The military trains for urban combat, disarming the populace, detaining the populace, and just controlling the citizens in a war or martial law situation. See this video operation urban warrior I’m not saying this would happen without a fight, but if we are at this point, then the coup has already occurred.

Q2. How many would desert the military in the case a military coup should occur?

A2. This would depend on how popular this action would be within the military.

Q3. What serviceman would fire upon the civilian population of this country?

A3. Soldiers do what they are ordered and trained to do. I bet more than you think. If they believe in what they are doing.

Q4. What gain to whom would it benefit for a military coup to occur?

A4. It would benefit the American Empire, and the MIC.

Q5. In the event of a military coup of the United States how long would it last before degenerating into all out civil war?

A5. It doesn’t matter how long it would last, at this point we would have already had a coup here.

Possible Reasons for a Coup
I have the upmost respect for our men and women in our armed forces, but there are certain things that could happen to spur this type of coup event. Our civilian government is rumored to be attempting to create the North American Union. This union is completely unconstitutional and would destroy The United States of America. Would the military stand by and allow our civilian government to allow the destruction of America, or would the do there duty and uphold there pledge to protect us from enemies both foreign and Domestic.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 03:18 AM
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Thank you, LDragonFire for your poignant and timely rebuttal…

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this being a simple blanket statement. These are core values in our nations military. What unfortunately happens is on some select occasions we do find personnel that do not hold these core values in the esteem that the majority of military men and women hold dear. Unfortunately we see especially on ATS and in the mainstream media the few that disregard these tenants of our military. Don’t let a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch as the saying goes.

In the scenario where you state that the joint chiefs of staff eliminate the executive branch and hold hostage the legislative branch what you would find is a group of power hungry men vying for the position of authority. One does not become the leader of their branch of the military because they are not power hungry. In a coup a single leader would have to emerge to dominate the others. The others would not like their authority usurped and would not allow the single player to take control of what they worked so hard to achieve.

Also your scenario would depend on our civilian government being so wayward from the constitution that a violent overthrow of our government and a reestablishment of core constitutional values would have to be implemented to regain our American way of life that each and every US citizen holds dear. Fortunately for us the checks and balances system of our government also includes the judicial branch, which is also a key point in our government. They hold the task of not allowing such an atrocity to the constitution to occur. The president appoints a judicial member to the Supreme Court and Congress is in charge of making sure that the person nominated can do the job effectively.

It is these checks and balances that would prevent and eliminate the need and the desire for a military coup of our government. It is in this way that a military coup happening within the next 50 years is near to impossible.

The scenario also would have to take into account that the American people become so complacent and so cowed by the system that they become apathetic to our government becoming so tyrannical that we would have no other choice than to coup our own government to replace it with one that the American people would stand behind. Trends indicate however that the American public is becoming more and more aware of their government and more and more aware of their rights and what they can do to effect good change in our democratically elected system. More and more people are going out and voting, more and more people are getting involved. More and more people are sick of the status quo, and desire change in our government to reflect their ideals of what America should be.

This is the reason our founding fathers fought so bravely in the first place to overthrow the tyrannical British Empire and to develop a system of government that they felt would be able to adapt and change to fit the majority of the people by the people and for the people. Americans believe in that way of life and so does our nations military.

A coup would be a deathblow to the military industrial complex. We live in a free society. The military industrial complex is also made up of civilian contractors that supply our government and military with the arms and other equipment necessary for our war machine to continue at a good profit to them and their shareholders. In the scenario where the government would be overthrown by a military coup the MIC would loose profitability because the Coup would also affect their bottom line. I seriously doubt that the CEOs and the shareholders would like for their cash cow to be slaughtered in that way.

This scenario and our nations military are also made up of American citizens. These people hold our American way of life in such high regard that they chose to fight for it. They believe so strongly in our constitution and government style that they are willing to put their life on the line in order for it to continue. I doubt that they would want to see that way of life irreparably changed in order to retain their power.

The NAU scenario also follows with a formerly established American ideal of manifest destiny. The original purpose was of course to have one nation from sea to shining sea. Do you think seriously that our government is going to willingly share power with Canada or Mexico? In all reality what the NAU is, is the annexing of these countries into the United States Empire. Eventually dividing these sovereign nations up into states and bringing them under complete United States control. No coup necessary in order for this scenario to play out just clever diplomatic relations. Ostensibly at first sure it would seem like a blow to our governmental power but our nations government democratically elected by the people of the united states would not stand for the sharing of power in such a union. The inevitability of our government to gobble up control of the NAU would reign supreme and we would once again be the United States. Our constitution would not change being the oldest constitution in use on the earth our traditions and values would not change but we would force Canada and Mexico into our way of life.

The Military in the above scenario would be sent out to Canada and Mexico in order to secure our new boarders. The realistic eventuality is that Canada and Mexico’s governments might be overthrown by our nations military in order to have them comply and submit into the United States not that our government would be seen as a domestic threat but they would be seen as a foreign threat. Overthrowing this threat to our sovereignty would be more morally acceptable to men and women of our military than the violent dismantling of our own government. It would also be much more palatable to our nations citizenry for this scenario to play out as well.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by whatukno
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this being a simple blanket statement. These are core values in our nations military.


I will agree that one can’t use a blanket statement labeling service men and women as all good or all bad. Really though, just how much does the average American Civilian or service member know about our constitution. You have the constitution before the American civil war, where generally the states trumped the federal government, and then you have the constitution after the civil war where the federal government trumps the states.

To me it’s all about the training the individual soldier receives, they are trained to follow orders and the chain of command. They are also being trained in urban combat tactics to control civilian populations on the pretext it’s for battles or wars in other countries, but could easily be used right here.

Q1. What happens if the Civilian Government is labeled incompetent, or unfit for duty, who the soldiers will side with?

I don’t believe right now we have a General with enough charisma to be a threat, but what happens when another general like Patton, MacArthur, or Lee rises to power, and conflicts with the civilian authority. Remember we are engaged in a War on Terrorism, a perpetual war, one without end. We live in a fear society and the beginning of any coup could very well be played out in the MSM, before any physical action takes place.


Originally posted by whatukno
In the scenario where you state that the joint chiefs of staff eliminate the executive branch and hold hostage the legislative branch what you would find is a group of power hungry men vying for the position of authority.


You see, this power struggle between these men, if I’m reading this paragraph correctly, would happen After a coup.


Originally posted by whatukno
Also your scenario would depend on our civilian government being so wayward from the constitution that a violent overthrow of our government and a reestablishment of core constitutional values would have to be implemented to regain our American way of life that each and every US citizen holds dear.


I’m glad you brought this up; this would be just another scenario of what could happen. The civilian government could be labeled as a threat to our constitution/republic form of government, and the military could step in with the pretext of restoring our constitutional form of government.


Originally posted by whatukno
It is these checks and balances that would prevent and eliminate the need and the desire for a military coup of our government.


History has shown that checks and balances can be eroded in time, it is happening right now in America. How many unprecedented things has this current administration achieved, mostly in the area of the War on Terror, Habeas Corpus suspended, holding people indefinitely, torture, Executive Privilege, Posse Cometatus just to name a few. I agree with you that these checks and balances were put in place to protect us from a tyrannical government, and to insure a continuation of our republic, but these safeguards are falling away in the name of security, how long till it will be up to the military to just step in to make sure we have a safe and secure country and who ever said that the courts, and congress would not support a possible coup.

One of the problems we face is that we are so polarized as a nation; most people are lumped into two groups, conservative or liberal. I bet if a coup did occur, based on a good PR campaign, I bet many Americans would support it, based on there ideological beliefs hence, you would get a civil war, two groups opposing one another, but this is a issue for another debate.


Originally posted by whatukno
The scenario also would have to take into account that the American people become so complacent and so cowed by the system that they become apathetic to our government becoming so tyrannical that we would have no other choice than to coup our own government to replace it with one that the American people would stand behind.


I couldn’t have said this better myself. When was the last time the will of the people really happened? Did Americans want Osama Bin laden dead, or did they want to War with Iraq? Did the Americans get there way after the last election or are we still at war in Iraq? Just a few examples here.


Originally posted by whatukno
This is the reason our founding fathers fought so bravely in the first place to overthrow the tyrannical British Empire and to develop a system of government that they felt would be able to adapt and change to fit the majority of the people by the people and for the people.


Some say our founding fathers would be the first to rise up against the Government we now have, it is so much larger and powerfull than they could have imagined, and it reaches into every home, car, and e-mail of almost all Americans, but again this isn’t the topic of this thread.


Originally posted by whatukno
A coup would be a deathblow to the military industrial complex. We live in a free society. The military industrial complex is also made up of civilian contractors that supply our government and military with the arms and other equipment necessary for our war machine to continue at a good profit to them and their shareholders.


This is just not correct; you have even said that if such a coup were to occur, that it would result in a civil war, and well War means profit for the MIC, I could see those selling arms to both sides it would be a profit windfall a win/win situation for those that make weapons for war. Q2. The first American civil war claimed one million lives, and saw our navy go from 90th place in the world to 3rd in the world, millions where made by the manufacture of weapons, do you think a new civil war here would be any different?


Originally posted by whatukno
This scenario and our nations military are also made up of American citizens. These people hold our American way of life in such high regard that they chose to fight for it.


This to me is another blanket statement; some join the military to fight, just like some people that become police officers like to be in control or to have authority over others.

Personally I think this is how the USA will fall, it will fall from within, and relying on the good nature of humans, or the faith that humans will do the right thing in such a greedy world is just wishful thinking.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 08:53 PM
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Thank you, LdragonFire your rebuttals are quite timely and are rather difficult for me to respond to in the time frame allotted for this debate.

The constitution of the United States has remained unchanged for over 200 years, amendments to that constitution have been ratified since then but the basic wording and regulations to our government have not changed at all. The Supreme Court does the interpretation of that constitution, as the judicial branch of our government has the right to do. This interpretation has changed over the years but the core values of the constitution and the freedoms of the citizens of the United States have relatively remained intact.


It is a fact that the US government has more recently appeared to trump the sovereignty of individual states rights but there are several examples where US law is indeed trumped by state law. California’s medicinal marijuana law is just such an example.


To me it’s all about the training the individual soldier receives, they are trained to follow orders and the chain of command. They are also being trained in urban combat tactics to control civilian populations on the pretext it’s for battles or wars in other countries, but could easily be used right here.


Soldiers are indeed trained to follow orders; this is a hallmark of any great military force. The difference is that in this military if a soldier is given a direct order that is contradictory to the law or an individual personnel’s moral compass that soldier has the right to (after the order has been carried out) They may file a grievance with the JAG office and there is a hearing. In these (more often than not) extreme cases, the superior officer may be found guilty and can lead to discharge.


Q1. What happens if the Civilian Government is labeled incompetent, or unfit for duty, who the soldiers will side with?


Most likely the soldiers will side with the government, however the police would most likely side with the citizenry. The scenario that you describe above is not a coup but a revolution. These happen sometimes. (in fact it happens every 2 years for a midterm election and every 4 years for a general election) If the citizenry rise up against the governing body of a country it is much different than a military body forcibly taking over a government for it’s own power gain.


I don’t believe right now we have a General with enough charisma to be a threat, but what happens when another general like Patton, MacArthur, or Lee rises to power, and conflicts with the civilian authority. Remember we are engaged in a War on Terrorism, a perpetual war, one without end. We live in a fear society and the beginning of any coup could very well be played out in the MSM, before any physical action takes place.


We actually have had a military leader in recent memory that could be considered as charismatic as Patton, Macarthur, or Lee. His name is Colin Powell. Like the others though he believed in our government and would never seriously consider a military coup of our constitutionally elected government.

We have lived in this society for quite a while now. It was just like this during the cold war. We lived in perpetual fear of commies during the cold war and no coup ever took place. A fear society is a great thing for the MIC, it allows them to develop and spend money on arms. This keeps the MIC happy and content. This in and of itself decreases the already minimal chance of a military coup.

I’m glad you brought this up; this would be just another scenario of what could happen. The civilian government could be labeled as a threat to our constitution/republic form of government, and the military could step in with the pretext of restoring our constitutional form of government.

In the event that the military would rise up against a government that has been deemed a threat to our constitution this would be a revolution not a coup. To restore the constitutionally elected government, by the people and for the people would simply be a revolution. This massively differs from a military coup.


History has shown that checks and balances can be eroded in time, it is happening right now in America.


Yes you are right, our core values in this country are being usurped. However these atrocities to our civil rights are happening through a corrupt administration and may not continue in subsequent administrations.

I have to take this next paragraph apart in order to correctly explain this…


How many unprecedented things has this current administration achieved, mostly in the area of the War on Terror,
Our society has changed dramatically in the wake of September 11, Whether or not that event was a wag the dog event or a legitimate attack on our country has no bearing on this debate.

Habeas Corpus suspended
only in the cases of foreign nationals held out of this country where the right of Habeas Corpus does not apply.


holding people indefinitely
All are being held according to the Geneva convention of warfare, These are enemy combatants and according to the articles of the convention they may not be released until the cessation of hostilities have been concluded.


torture
Being currently debated as what is classified as torture I may not agree with what is considered torture but this in and of itself is a debatable point., and not applicable here in this debate.


Executive Privilege
Not applicable in this debate.


Posse Cometatus
I do apologize but I am not familiar with this term. Please explain this to me so that I might understand.


how long till it will be up to the military to just step in to make sure we have a safe and secure country and who ever said that the courts, and congress would not support a possible coup.
This would not be a coup. In this eventuality that congress gets finally fed up with the executive branch there is a system in place that would allow them to remove a sitting president without the need for a coup. It is called an impeachment. It has been done before and is capable of happening again.

A civil war is much different than the taking over of a government by the military. There are major differences in both these scenarios.


Q2. The first American civil war claimed one million lives, and saw our navy go from 90th place in the world to 3rd in the world, millions where made by the manufacture of weapons, do you think a new civil war here would be any different?

Absolutely not, I in fact think that a civil war in this day and age would be a boon to the manufacturers of military equipment and supplies provided location availability and who has the money to buy the supplies. But this is different from a military coup of the government.
Again the first thing a person does when they join the United States military is to take an oath to protect and defend the constitution and the country. While not all persons take this oath literally the indoctrination into the military life leads one to uphold these tenants fiercely. Not all persons do so and eventually they leave the military. Who are left and become “lifers” are people that believe so much in these values that they commit their entire carriers to these principals.

Q1 What is the difference between a revolution and a military coup?

Q2 What is the consequences of a military coup of the government?

Q3 What would be the benefits to the American people for a military coup of the government?

Q4 What would be the reaction from the rest of the world especially our enemies in the event of a military coup of the government?

Q5 What economic impact would occur in the eventuality of a military coup?



posted on Feb, 19 2008 @ 10:28 AM
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Regarding the first two paragraphs of your last reply, I completely disagree with you. Before the civil war there was no national law against slavery, it was up to each individual state to decide, how there laws would be, after/during the civil war slavery was outlawed by the federal government, effectively trumping any state law that was for slavery, and about the California pot laws, just Google information about how the Federal government has responded to them. Now back to the debate.


Originally posted by whatukno
Most likely the soldiers will side with the government, however the police would most likely side with the citizenry.


With the militarization of our police force in the last decade or so, it’s sometimes hard to tell the difference from the military and the police. Our police are engaged in a war of there own, a war on drugs, so what does that make the general population? It makes them potential enemies, and what does it make the police? It makes them soldiers.

The topic at hand is about a possible coup against the government in the future, not a revolution.

I don’t believe that Colin Powell is charismatic enough or ever has been, besides his credibility has been pretty much shot after his speech to the UN about WMP and Iraq.


Originally posted by whatukno
We have lived in this society for quite a while now. It was just like this during the cold war. We lived in perpetual fear of commies during the cold war and no coup ever took place. A fear society is a great thing for the MIC, it allows them to develop and spend money on arms. This keeps the MIC happy and content. This in and of itself decreases the already minimal chance of a military coup.


Bingo! You are correct here. I have stated that the MIC would be motivated to launch a coup against a civilian government that threatened this status quo. Let me use Ron Paul as a example here, Ron Paul feels that the current US Government is in violation of the constitution, lets say he won the presidency, and lets say he was able to launch his agenda of getting rid of the income tax or IRS {this supplies the MIC with most of there income} lets say he was able to close military bases all over the world, effectively ending the American Empire, lets also say that the MIC could not assassinate him, one of the only other alternatives would be to launch a coup against the Paul administration.


Originally posted by whatukno
I’m glad you brought this up; this would be just another scenario of what could happen. The civilian government could be labeled as a threat to our constitution/republic form of government, and the military could step in with the pretext of restoring our constitutional form of government.

In the event that the military would rise up against a government that has been deemed a threat to our constitution this would be a revolution not a coup. To restore the constitutionally elected government, by the people and for the people would simply be a revolution. This massively differs from a military coup.


Sorry but you just confirmed everything I have been talking about, this is a coup plain and simple, whether there pretext is truthful or not. I will explain and reply to your questions about revolution below.

A civil war in America would be the likely result of a coup.

Posse Comitatus

Q1 What is the difference between a revolution and a military coup?

A1 A revolution is a general uprising of the “people” against there government, a coup is when the military takes over there government.

Q2 What is the consequences of a military coup of the government?

A2 More than likely a civil war, but it of course would mean that a coup has occurred, and that is what this debate is all about.

Q3 What would be the benefits to the American people for a military coup of the government?

A3 I don’t see it benefiting the American public, even though I believe a potion of this public would support such a action in the future.

Q4 What would be the reaction from the rest of the world especially our enemies in the event of a military coup of the government?

A4 Who is to say, but then again this is assuming a coup has occurred.

Q5 What economic impact would occur in the eventuality of a military coup?

A5 Again Who is to say, but then again this is assuming a coup has occurred.



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 03:27 AM
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With the militarization of our police force in the last decade or so, it’s sometimes hard to tell the difference from the military and the police. Our police are engaged in a war of there own, a war on drugs, so what does that make the general population? It makes them potential enemies, and what does it make the police? It makes them soldiers.


The individual police forces around this country are primarily answerable to local and state government. They, believe it or not are in the business of protecting the innocent and serving the citizenry of the country. Yes it is true that they are in a perpetual war on drugs. However this war is not what it seems. This war is purely economic with no local government having any real goal of stopping the flow of drugs into this country. It is more profitable to hand out fines than to stop the drug trade. But in the end the majority of police officers are good people that want to help people out, serve the public interest. In the event of a coup it would be in the local law enforcement’s best interest to continue to protect and serve the general public and to stop a potential coup from ever occurring.

Point of example, during hurricane Charlie that ripped through Punta Gorda FL. After the hurricane had passed The local police and sheriffs department helped my wife and I recover. Not once were we intimidated by the local law enforcement. Even though the entire county was in a state of emergency and under martial law local law enforcement was willing and able to give aid and lend a hand to people in need.

In another example I have read a pamphlet that was issued to county law enforcement officers for such an event that there was a general coup or revolution of the federal government. The local law enforcement has been ordered to side on the of American citizens. As they are obligated to protect and serve the public they would be the front line troops in the event of a unlikely coup of the government. Believe me when I say to you that the police are actually on your side. Again a few bad apples ruins the reputation of many honorable men and women whose real goal in their carriers is to protect our freedoms protect our lives and serve the public interest.
One also has to remember that the majority of people are in general good people. They do not want to harm anyone or have harm come to them. Yes there are evil humans on this planet. But the majority of people want nothing to do with violence or the destruction of our way of life. This philosophy will continue for a long time


The topic at hand is about a possible coup against the government in the future, not a revolution.

Good then lets get back to that. I wanted to point out the difference so that you would know what this debate is about. The problem with a possible coup of the government is the gray area of coup vs revolution. This should be defined and I believe I have done this with my last two rebuttals. This is a debate about a military coup of our constitutionally mandated United States government. It is a debate about the laws the probability and the eventuality of such an event within the next 50 years. I have tried as hard as I might to show how this is such an impossibility at this point and in the next 50 years.

Fear and ignorance, Ignorance and fear these are the worlds watchwords.


Sorry but you just confirmed everything I have been talking about, this is a coup plain and simple, whether there pretext is truthful or not. I will explain and reply to your questions about revolution below.


What I have confirmed is the legality and the potentiality of such an event occurring. There is neither precedent nor historical requisite for such a coup of the military to occur. Even during the continental congress the American militia was not more authoritative than the governing body of the early United States.

With all the checks, balances and backups that are in place a military coup of the united states is not only unlikely it is nigh impossible.



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 03:28 AM
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(accidental double post eliminated by The Vagabond

[edit on 24-2-2008 by The Vagabond]



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 07:38 AM
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Closing Statement

Whatukno it has been a pleasure debating this topic with you, again I would like to thank ATS and all involved for making these debates possible.

Here is a List of coups and coup attempts throughout history. There are literally hundreds of these types of events dating as far back as 509 BC. So from a historical stand point, what has happened will happen again. All types of governments have been victims of coup, monarchy’s, republics; even dictators have been victims of coup.

Is it possible for elements of our military to overthrow our executive branch of government, yes it is very possible and also very likely in the next 50 years. Can these groups be successful in holding onto power after a successful coup, is unclear, and would be a good subject for a debate.

Our government has been changing of late, if you told me a decade ago that the USA would invade a country that posed no direct threat to us, or that did not attack us first, I would have told you you’re crazy, but we did just that. It’s just one change in policy and law in America among many, what changes are in store in the future is hard to say. The further we move away from our constitution, the less safe all of America will be, our civil liberties are under fire, as our basic human rights, if this trend continues and weakens the checks and balances that are just hanging by a thread the more likely it would be for us to witness a coup type event occur.

In a world ruled by greed and power, I frankly don’t trust the idea that men and women of the armed forces are somehow above this type of action.

All Empires fall, history has proven that, and most fall from internal forces.

Ladies and Gentleman, I rest my case.

LDF



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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Closing Statement

Thank you LdragonFire for a wonderful and entertaining debate. I also would like to thank The Vagabond and all the staff of ATS that have made this tourney possible.

In this debate I hope to have shown how, through our system of government a military coup is not likely. How through military core values of tradition and service it is not likely that a military coup would occur.

I have also hopefully shown that a military coup at any time is not in the best interest of the Military Industrial Complex and that to do so would be at the peril of those involved, financially as well as supportively.

How through the advantages brought on by a all volunteer military, it works to negate decent in the ranks and boosts moral and loyalty. This also plays a key factor in the negation of any possibility of a takeover of our government by the Military Industrial Complex.

I have also shown that there are other systems in place within our current government that allows for it to repair itself before a military coup would be a viable option.

Within our military beats the heart of courage, and honor. It beats strongly in each and every serviceman and woman. They felt so strongly in protecting our way of life that they risk theirs. While it is true that not all military personnel are perfect as humans go, no one is, but hopefully we can all agree that the vast majority of people serving in our armed forces are honorable decent people that would never try and quell the legally entitled and constitutionally mandated central government of this country.

In our government there are checks and balances to ensure that the heart of the constitution is adhered to. If in the event that a member of our government crosses a constitutional line there are procedures in place to right the situation long before a military coup is required.

In Conclusion

In the next 50 years, there is no serious risk of our government succumbing to a military coup. Our military works honorably and heroically to face dangers every day to our way of life. The men and women in uniform are proud and brave and would not sink to a low as to commit high treason against our constitution. As long as our constitution is the benchmark for these United States our military will continue tirelessly fighting to keep those ideals a part of our lives.

Violence is of course, the last refuge of the incompetent.

Thank you

What U KNO



posted on Feb, 24 2008 @ 06:50 PM
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This one is off to the judges. Applause to both debaters for their timely posting and outstanding participation.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:23 PM
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Whatukno is the victor.

Judge's comments:


Nice debate, both members handled themselves well and both made a good case. Makes it hard to judge but I think that whatukno had the staying power and closed better.



It was close, but at the end I didn't feel like I had been given a clear picture of any political trend in the military that represented a compelling danger. On that note I was a little disappointed not to hear more about certain generals who have warned that such a danger existed.

Both did a good job, but a critical piece of the affirmative case seemed very understated, and that made the difference.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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Congratulations Whatukno, for a entertaining debate, and good luck with round 2

In the future I recommend that when the winners are selected, that you include All of the participating debates, it seemed unusual to me, that our debate was not judged till 2 days after the others. I'm only saying this, because think of pitchers in baseball, they need rest between games, to physically and mentally prepare for their next outing.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 05:17 PM
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Thank you LDragonFire, I appreciate your views and I salute your valiant effort. It was fun to debate this topic with you and I enjoyed how you handled yourself with respect and tact.

This is going to be a difficult Tourny I guarantee





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