Why do Christians always assume they're right?

LOL...I love that answer. Off the topic, but I don't understand why we have to type so much in the threads. It would seem to me they would want to save space...but who am I? I prefer shorter, succinct answers myself, but I assume it has something to do with shorter answers appearing to be too mean. In short, they're short!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000

Got any figures on the casualties the Tibetan Lamas caused during their very long, rapacious reign over Tibet?

Seventy-eight million? Maybe if you buy into Jung Chang's propaganda book. Actual historians place the figures of deaths under Mao's reign to have been closer to 30 million, the overwhelming majority due to famine. A combination of natural drought, Japanese destruction of infrastructure, and a halt to trade because the NATO powers didn't want to empower or legitimatize a communist government, and, yes, bad decisions by that government all contributed.

Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23,000,000 (the purges plus Ukraine's famine)

2 million died from this famine, which stretched through the western soviet bloc. It's called the Holodomor, and like the famine under Mao, was a combination of factors. The government's policies made a bad thing worse, but the bad thing was there anyway.

Historians put forth a figure of 700,000 deaths from the Stalinist purges. The "official count" from Soviet Records is only 25,000 total people affected by the purges, with no record of any dead... But then we know how reliable those must be.

However, 20 million did die under Stalin - fighting the Nazis on the Eastern Front. Combination civilian and military deaths.

Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)

Hitler was a Christian, as were the majority of the Nazi party and hteir followers. Hitler did abandon religion shortly before his suicide - apparently he was wrong about the whole "God wanting me to conquer the world for the German race" thing. Ya think?

Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians in WWII)

8,000,000, actually, is the figure of civilian casualties from the Japanese part of the war that are given. Tojo, like all Japanese military elite, revered the Emperor as a divine being, the spiritual child of Amaterasu. He wasn't an atheist, he was a nationalist shinto.

Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000

You got a number right! Hot dog. Alright, and for scale, 5,000,000 people died in the Viet Nam war, only 1m of them soldiers on either side. Carpet bombing is a hell of a thing.

Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)

Got another one right.

Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000

300,000, primarily from a famine that is still ongoing.

Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians

The man who created the "Army of Islam" in 1917 and planned to go to war to capture southern Russia from the Bolseviks was an atheist?

Okay, so, inflated numbers and false attributions of atheism for some of your examples aside, I'd like you to explain, in detail, what leads you to believe these many tragic deaths are the result of atheism, or were killed "in hte name of" atheism. I'm sure you have a great argument as to why you are certain of all this.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by TheWalkingFox]

[edit on 15-2-2008 by TheWalkingFox]

reply to post by THIseNdsnowoldKings


Ah yes. The "Christians are incapable of wrongdoing because if they do any wrong they're not Christians" and the same old "Catholics aren't Christians"

Parent: "Augh! Who drew all over the wall!"
Kid: "...Not me!"
Parent: "You were the only person here to do it..."
Kid: "Nuh uh!"
Parent: "And you're holding the crayon."
Kid: "This is a different crayon."
Parent: "It's the same color as the marks on the wall."
Kid: "Nuh uh, this is a DIFFERENT crayon, because I didn't do that"
Parent: "You signed your name!"
Kid: "No! That was some other kid!"
Parent: "You're an only child"
Kid: "YOU HATE ME WAAAAAAH! *stomps off and throws things*"

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Okay, so, inflated numbers and false attributions of atheism for some of your examples aside, I'd like you to explain, in detail, what leads you to believe these many tragic deaths are the result of atheism, or were killed "in hte name of" atheism. I'm sure you have a great argument as to why you are certain of all this.

Thanks for the post TheWalkingFox. But I never attributed those mass murders to atheism. I was simply responding to the idea that Christians had killed more people than anyone in history. Which is not born out of the numbers. Those murders were probably over politics not religion.

In the end I think my problem is with the believers and not so much as the word itself.

There are some Christens that believe you can not be a good and whole person unless you let the light of God into heart. And I personally call B.S. on that one.

You can love, be kind, and have morals without being among the faithful.

Now maybe I think this way because I did live with a Jewish family for a while and in there faith you were a good and just person because you were supposed to be, not for a reward. With Christianity, it's seems to be a lot about obeying the rules and sucking up to the man in white to get a reward and avoid the flames.

Humans are a beautiful and terrible creature all at once. Not because of an invisible father figure, but because of our choices, our self given freewill.


I'm sorry I went off topic, but I did feel that my comment does relate to the O.P.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


When did i ever say that christians did no evil? But riddle me this then, who is totally innocent?
HA
No one. So if i were to say anything, then it is that christians arent bad people. Just so you know, i am not christian. i am of no religion. Neither am i atheist.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Fair enough.
But I still stand by my statement.
I've known plenty of Christians whose belief system reflects the church's tyranny.
Like I said before, bad apples.
However, there are lots of bad apples.
You can't stick up for all of them just like I can't condemn all of them.

Originally posted by THIseNdsnowoldKings

Actually, you are getting christians mixed up with, catholics.
There hasnt been a christian crusade, or holocast. NO ethnic cleansing. Christians are basically, people who dont like the ideals and negativities of religions, so they choose christianity. Which appears to be described best as, the belief that there is a god, the comandments, and a possible day of reconing.

Actually, this whole thread seems to be a problem with PEOPLE and not religion.

Life can be likened to a game, as once was told to me when I was immersed in a world of Scientology (no i am not a scientologist)

Like a game, life has freedoms and barriers, finding a balance of those two is what makes the game fun and interesting. It makes life that way too.

Lets take a pigskin oblong object teams of people with one goal one truth one clear objective to get that oblong shaped ball to the end of a field when someone says "Hike"

You run the ball to the end over and over its all freedoms and not very interesting. Well lets add another team that trys to stop the team with the oblong shaped pigskin object. Now you have barriers and now you got a game. It is more interesting and we don't take life that serious till we start losing the game of life. You usually hear people say things like "Life isn't a game man,, life is serious!" Well I had also seen when people get very very good at a game they get accused of cheating. Whether they are or not, I will always remember a Quake player that had said this after being accused of cheating.

Someone announced over the console of the game that "Player 1" was cheating! Then Player 1 said: Player 1's translation = I hate losing.

This sour grapes title of this thread reminds me of the guy that called player 1 a cheater.

Religious people like most people when their need to be "right" is in jeopardy they will use their standard of truth to argue with same as atheist, use theirs then comes the attack on both of their staple truth sources both accuse the other of always trying to be right both will go googling for atrocities of the past in which they can re-shame the other by attaching them and their "type" of this or that into it substantiating them as the right one and them the wrong one.

The whole process is intoxicating to some and you see it in every thread on these boards. To even have said "why do (fill in your group) always think they are right" means (if they are honest with themselves) that they have met enough of "them" (truther, christian this or that, atheist, agnostic, debunker, skeptic, republican, democrat etc) to even say such things and stayed long enough after the religious tract, or latest 911 artifact was given to get into a discussion which escalates along with your respected foes and friends and now we have actual groups arguing and then sometimes fights start, sometimes what starts as a discusion ends in a war. It is not that "they always assume they are right" is the problem, it is that your need to be right is always in jeopardy when you insist on engaging a people who like you want you to see it their way while you think your way is the "right" way.

It is all the same with skeptics and 911 truth seekers, Christians when arguing with other "types" of Christians and now I even see atheists do it which surprises me. (no I wont elaborate)

almost every post on this forum is an argument of sorts and we all have the argument monkey on our necks. To say that a "this" or that assumes they are always right tells me only one thing.

they just hate losing arguments

with Christians or who ever

(fill in the blank) they are

- Con















[edit on 15-2-2008 by Conspiriology]

Well, it is true that the Catholic Church was itself responsible for the Crusades. But what of the Anglican Church and it's being a force behind Englands conquest of Wales, Ireland, and Scotland? And here in America, what of the Southern Baptists not only not criticizing slavery in the South, but in some cases actively encouraging it and defending it when Abolitionists at first, and later the North, became convinced that a nation could not survive if it was half free and half slave. And of the Christian belief that the Native American's were heathens and were also one of the driving forces behind Manifest Destiny. Admitedly, atheists and pagans may not be perfect themselves, but have you ever heard of an atheist or pagan crusade. Or of atheists or pagans burning people at the stake or having witch hunts. Unless I have missed something along the way, I have not seen anything of that sort in the history books. Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying ALL Christians are like that. Only a very small percentage of them are that way. I know many Christians, as well as Catholics and members of other faiths who are not that way themselves. Most members of the different religions are very decent hard working people who would not even consider condoning a lot of what has happened in the past. They simply ask to be left alone so that they can practice their beliefs the way they see fit. And that is all I ask for myself, too. After all, isn't there enough room on this planet for ALL faith systems? I believe that there is.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Chrisitans have been around for 2,000 yearts give or take. In that period there have been no shortages of murders at their hands. If only by weight of time, Christians have a LOT of murders on hteir hands. But hey, all you have to do is do the "bad Christians aren't Christians" defense... Yeah well, bad atheists aren't atheists either, I'm sure!

I agree with the fact that there have been atrocities perpetuated in the name of the church. That's why we need a savior. The figures I listed demonstrate that there have been greater atrocities committed just for power. I am critical of organized religion as well. My point is so was Jesus. The religious leaders of his day had him killed. I really think on the whole the church has done more good than harm. Feeding the poor, medical supplies in Africa etc etc. However end times prophecies (and I believe we are near the end) predicted that some of the church would be apostate. So corruption is no surprise.

Back on topic: Of course Christians aren't right about everything (no one is). Why do I think it is the right faith. I became a follower of Christ as an adult when a young seminary student convinced me by the way he lived. His testimony was his selflessness and holiness, not what he said. After studying the Bible and seeing fulfilled prophecies, and what I perceived as supernatural inspiration, I was impressed enough to call myself a Christian. The reason I think I am right to choose this faith are 1) The resurrection of Christ 2) supernatural nature of scripture (fulfilled prophecies) 3) Selfless acts other Christians

"Belief" in anything without proof is insanity. Believing you will fly and jumping out of a window is insanity. Investing in a junk stock and hoping without evidence that it will increase in value is insanity. Believing in a story about a supposed afterlife, people rising from the dead, talking spirits, etc and rules set down by men without any evidence that they are supported by the physical realities of the universe or any data of psychology is insanity. Insanity is acting in a way that is contrary to the built-in-by-God-if-he-exists hardware in your brain that is supposed to function with logic and reason with emotion as a motivating impulse. Belief in the religious sense is akin to reaching a conclusion without data or facts, just because you hope it is true or are too intellectually lazy to examine the evidence, become educated about the subject and draw a logical conclusion. If a person can prove using data and logic that Christianity is true, then I and every person with a functioning brain would accept it. Anything less is insanity.

from 26 ce to 29 ce the scribes and the pharisees and the chief priest in israel heard and saw Messiah teach perform miracles and raise the dead yet at the end of Messiah's 3 1/2 year ministry they conspired together to cause the romans to put Him to death------and if He came back as a human this time-----our people would repeat that cycle and put Him to death again.

this next time He returns it will be as G-D to save His people and whats left of humanity after they have been using their logic to almost destroy all life on the earth


when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken through daniel the prophet,standing in the holy place then those who are in judah(israel)must flee to the mountains--------------for then there will be a great tribulation,such as not occurred since the beginning of the world until now,nor ever will.unless those days had been cut short,no life would have been saved;but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.(matthew 24:15-22)


it appears that some of us will wait too late to take the religion of G-D seriously in this lifetime.other bible prophecies appear to indicate that G-D will let us get our fill of our wars until 1/3 to 1/10 of earths population is left before Messiah stops our mad logic.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

Chrisitans have been around for 2,000 yearts give or take. In that period there have been no shortages of murders at their hands. If only by weight of time, Christians have a LOT of murders on hteir hands. But hey, all you have to do is do the "bad Christians aren't Christians" defense... Yeah well, bad atheists aren't atheists either, I'm sure!

This sounds like a police matter,, has anyone thought of calling the police on the collective serial killers called Christians??

The Christians are coming the Christians are coming

Lions and tigers and bears oh my!

sheesh fox you sure know how find the common denominator and make a distinction to blame them for . These were all christians having done it in the name of Christianity right. They come blasting in saying We are the Christian and you will be assasinated.

Resistance is futile

- Con

Originally posted by j_kalin
"Belief" in anything without proof is insanity. Believing you will fly and jumping out of a window is insanity. Investing in a junk stock and hoping without evidence that it will increase in value is insanity. Believing in a story about a supposed afterlife, people rising from the dead, talking spirits, etc and rules set down by men without any evidence that they are supported by the physical realities of the universe or any data of psychology is insanity. Insanity is acting in a way that is contrary to the built-in-by-God-if-he-exists hardware in your brain that is supposed to function with logic and reason with emotion as a motivating impulse. Belief in the religious sense is akin to reaching a conclusion without data or facts, just because you hope it is true or are too intellectually lazy to examine the evidence, become educated about the subject and draw a logical conclusion. If a person can prove using data and logic that Christianity is true, then I and every person with a functioning brain would accept it. Anything less is insanity.

Yet people like Jeffery Dahmer who are Atheist serial killers get insane AFTER they go to prison and "find God" .

Sam Harris an Atheist has been expressed in statements like this one he made recently

"some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them."

Seems to me he should be the leader of a hate group then they could round up all those bad Christians who possess that evil memeplex virus called faith, then the sane people who think they have a corner monopoly on logic can exterminate all those negative mutations with a frontal lobotomy. Or should they be killed?

No wonder Christians feel like they got to go out and kill a bunch of people that think they know so much.

- Con

Originally posted by wu kung

Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
...
I know you say it's man's inhumanity to man, and I agree, however, when done under the banner of a larger cause (Christianity), it becomes unforgivable.

I disagree. A wrong done under any name is still a wrong. The name under which it occurred is simply a detail. The term 'unforgivable' I have a problem with also, as a Christian. Forgiveness for all, one of the basic tenets.

The sad fact is that men who lust for power will use any means, any excuse, to justify their actions. It can be religion, oil, or just that simple belief that 'we're right, they're wrong' taken to extreme (how ya like that? pulled the whole thing back on itself ). My stance from the beginning is that Christianity is not the problem; mankind is the problem. And unfortunately, we seem to be stuck with that one.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Chrisitans have been around for 2,000 yearts give or take. In that period there have been no shortages of murders at their hands. If only by weight of time, Christians have a LOT of murders on hteir hands. But hey, all you have to do is do the "bad Christians aren't Christians" defense... Yeah well, bad atheists aren't atheists either, I'm sure!

Actually, you're right, Fox. Atrocities committed under the name 'atheist' could very well have no relationship to actual atheism. Same with any other label used to justify them.

BTW, what's a 'yeart'? (sorry, j/k, but couldn't resist)

TheRedneck

Their is no church. There is no God. There is no son of God. You people come up with all this sacramental jargon and your fancy little speeches, for what? What are you trying to prove and to who? Yourself, period. No one cares about your Gods and angels, whatever you want to call or give a name to something that does not exist. You can debate until your fingers bleed. It doesn't matter to anyone anymore.
So slip away to never never land with your supreme being and the little toads who are thought to be some kind of winged ape, "angels." No one cares but a totally neurotic sociopath. Just my opinion you understand.

Double Post. OOPS!

[edit on 2/15/08 by TEMELUCHUS]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
This sounds like a police matter,, has anyone thought of calling the police on the collective serial killers called Christians??

Well, given that the majority of convicts in the western hemisphere, Australia, Europe, and sub-saharan Africa are Christians, I think the police may already have been tipped off.

You miss my point though. By simple weight of time and numbers, Christians beat Atheists in bloodshed.

The Christians are coming the Christians are coming

Well it's about time. Maybe it'll help them relax!

sheesh fox you sure know how find the common denominator and make a distinction to blame them for.

If that's how you choose to interpret my presentation of figures and instances with some corrections on the theological leanings of everyone's favorite people to hate for the 20th century, go right ahead. I've already made plenty of commentary on my positions on Christianity. None of 'em involve a religion-wise murder credo... which is more than you can say about your positions on other religions or non-religions.

These were all christians having done it in the name of Christianity right. They come blasting in saying We are the Christian and you will be assasinated.

Nope. Nor were any of hte crimes above done for atheism. Are you building up to a point or just attributing stuff to me erroneously?

Resistance is futile

- Con

The borg have better personalities.