Why do Christians always assume they're right?

page: 15
16
<< 12  13  14    16 >>

log in

join

posted on Feb, 25 2008 @ 06:14 PM
link   
reply to post by enchantress62
 


Thats a great post but the majority of devout religious followers wont open their minds to such basic concepts. That wouldn't be good for those contributions on Sunday and God forbid people start to question religious authority....hell is hot I hear..




posted on Feb, 25 2008 @ 07:59 PM
link   
reply to post by luxor311
 


Our Bible tells us to question religious authority and all doctrine. It also tells us to use reason and discernment in all things. Many of us have examined the evidence with an open mind and have accepted the faith after critical research and personal experiences. To know such things and still say, "Nah." is close minded in my opinion.



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 05:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by luxor311
 


Our Bible tells us to question religious authority and all doctrine. It also tells us to use reason and discernment in all things. Many of us have examined the evidence with an open mind and have accepted the faith after critical research and personal experiences. To know such things and still say, "Nah." is close minded in my opinion.


So if I'm reading you right, then you are saying "The devil you know is better then the one you don't?" hhhhmmmm If I'm wrong then I appologize, but that's what it sounds like to me.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 03:10 AM
link   
reply to post by AshleyD
 


you know ashley..I finally took a little time and went over (briefly) a couple of the links you provided for "Answers to difficult Bible question"

I think the sites you provided are a perfect example of why the op decided to post the heading he did for this topic.

here is a quote from the third link:


Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.


of course this can be applied to both sides of the argument, but there certainly is A LOT of this going on in the Christian camp.

in a nutshell...the axiom that defines Christianity's views and why they always think they are right (generalizing of course) is because Christians believe the Bible to be a 100% infallable account of history and spiritual dogma.

true REASON and LOGIC can provide heavy arguments that this is just simply not the case.

In my opinion, it does not matter whether the Bible is 100% correct (unless people are stating such..then I am all for countering as some of you know
).

Much of the new testament gives a spiritual message that can actually, possibly help and improve your relationship with?... God, universe, self "governing power".... whatever that realm is. (unlike the old testament which pushes agenda and false/ altered-to-fit information)

And this goes for other "holy" texts as well. so it is not that Christians are the only ones that think they are right..it is all religions. Like i said to someone else..if you are going to be religious and follow a certain belief then at least study as many of them as you can and then choose. not just the one that is convenient and easily accessible, or becaue your parents went to one church their whole life. Do some homework and learn. why be subjected to one belief and never try to understand and compare other religions?

Unfortunately though, much like ego and self righteousness, many "believers" think they have all the answers because the Bible (or equivalent book) tells them all that is needed to know (going back to it being infallable). That is where there is a huge divider between spirituality and run of the mill control-religion.

if you think you have the answers..more than often you do not. and more than often you will not be able to connect with that ever so important spiritual side that is so often brushed aside for the material world we live in.....

god knows i am as guilty as they come.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 07:46 AM
link   
I know AshleyD can sufficiently address this, but, I'm not one to sit idly by.


Originally posted by abelievingskeptic

I think the sites you provided are a perfect example of why the op decided to post the heading he did for this topic.
here is a quote from the third link:

Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.


The same thing that is done in 'scientific' fields, especially evolution.
Whose suppositions will change many times each year. Their conjecture
is what most of their careers are based on.
It can't be PROVEN. Just because someone says, "It's a FACT!"



of course this can be applied to both sides of the argument, but there certainly is A LOT of this going on in the Christian camp.


You mean we believe some things(Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), which can't be 100% proven, yet? It takes faith to see the Big Picture.


in a nutshell...the axiom that defines Christianity's views and why they always think they are right (generalizing of course) is because Christians believe the Bible to be a 100% infallable account of history and spiritual dogma.


I think most every Christian here has said or implied that we are not infallible or perfect. The Bible being perfect is a different matter, since it IS perfect!
The Living Word.
It can hide pearls of wisdom from the foolish or give it's treasures to those who LOVE the truth! It's also a mirror, where, like it or not, God CAN show you your spiritual condition.(Most people don't care to know.)



true REASON and LOGIC can provide heavy arguments that this is just simply not the case.


True reason and logic?
I haven't seen you or your like-minded posters provide ANY that is contrary to the scriptures.




Much of the new testament gives a spiritual message that can actually, possibly help and improve your relationship with?... God, universe, self "governing power".... whatever that realm is. (unlike the old testament which pushes agenda and false/ altered-to-fit information)


Old Testament agenda and false information.
Such as?


And this goes for other "holy" texts as well. so it is not that Christians are the only ones that think they are right..it is all religions. Like i said to someone else..if you are going to be religious and follow a certain belief then at least study as many of them as you can and then choose. not just the one that is convenient and easily accessible, or becaue your parents went to one church their whole life. Do some homework and learn. why be subjected to one belief and never try to understand and compare other religions?


Studying religions(even non-Abrahamic ones) is what most Christians who post at this site have done, We've read, talked to others about what they believe, etc...
Then WE STILL KNOW that the Bible and Jesus are true. But, we can see where others are 'coming from'.


Unfortunately though, much like ego and self righteousness, many "believers" think they have all the answers because the Bible (or equivalent book) tells them all that is needed to know (going back to it being infallable). That is where there is a huge divider between spirituality and run of the mill control-religion.


Ego and self-righteousness run EXACTLY counter to what Jesus and the Bible teach.
Christianity is about controlling a person's STUPIDITY and ignorance about God.


if you think you have the answers..more than often you do not.


The Bible said that very eloquently here;

1Cr 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.




and more than often you will not be able to connect with that ever so important spiritual side that is so often brushed aside for the material world we live in.....

god knows i am as guilty as they come.


Believing the scriptures (and studying them) is mandatory for developing a rich, wholesome and mature spirituality.



posted on Mar, 8 2008 @ 11:24 PM
link   
reply to post by Clearskies
 



I know AshleyD can sufficiently address this, but, I'm not one to sit idly by.


well done chap. well done..its good to come to the aid of your allies
..j/k
let me ask U the question..have you taken the time to check her links?


The same thing that is done in 'scientific' fields, especially evolution.
Whose suppositions will change many times each year. Their conjecture
is what most of their careers are based on.
It can't be PROVEN. Just because someone says, "It's a FACT!"


and here we go! a comeback I suppose was the intention here.. please point out when and where I said evolution was the all-encompassing answer that you seem to be implying somehow?

this is where the defensiveness gets so old. it is almost sad that because you feel such a need to protect the beliefs that are ingrained in your bones that you want...need...HAVE to comeback with such a trivial completely off topic statement..where does this come from?..seriously


please..if you would like to express yourself..find a way that does not completely derail the topic. I believe ashley made a thread about evolution..feel free to apply these comments to that subject




I think most every Christian here has said or implied that we are not infallible or perfect.


are you responding to me?...if you are..when did i say christians said they are perfect?..either you, somehow, completely misconstrued what I said or you re-aranged a message that never indicated anything of the sort so you could come across righteous...interesting christian approach that never has been attempted before......lol


**please note sarcasm**



Bible being perfect is a different matter, since it IS perfect!
The Living Word.


hallelujah folks!..you heard it here..the bible IS PERFECT! thank you for revealing the 'forbidden knowledge'....

you know..this crap i just wrote above is completely unnecessary..just as your assertion that the bible is perfect is completely unnecessary. i hope god gave you a big pat on the back for it..or maybe a star by your name in the book of peter next to the pearly gates...


i mean this in the most un-negative, nicest way possible....instead of blatantly stateing something (input many adjectives here) as this maybe you should try to step down from that mile high pedestal you are standing on and humble yourself for one instant....maybe, just maybe then you might enlighten yourself the tiniest amount to understand that sometimes it is better to say nothing at all than to express what your 'infallable' brain thinks it knows...hope i was not to harsh




It can hide pearls of wisdom from the foolish or give it's treasures to those who LOVE the truth!


please enlighten us on these pearls of wisdom...we understand your intellect tips the scale is on a much higher level than the rest of us foolish goyim..so please...do tell

i do agree lessons can be learned from the bible..specifically the old testament, but i am sure you will not agree on which lessons these are.



It's also a mirror, where, like it or not, God CAN show you your spiritual condition.(Most people don't care to know.)


yes..i would absolutely deplore to think God can show me spirituality

sir,
if you are so positive that the bible is so infallable then why even respond? especially without taking into consideration as to why certain questions are being asked in the first place...you dont even consider considering the possiblility that there may be something to all the skepticism about the bible....if your beliefs are so concrete in your being, then what would be the point in even debating different aspects of christianity?

i am more than willing and more than happy to recognize a well thought out reply from a devout christian. And I would absolutely consider re-converting to christianity if clarifying evidence surfaced that defied my understanding and interpretation of the Bible.

But to listen to someone spout 'knowledge' with absolute certainty only gives more credence to my beliefs.



True reason and logic?
I haven't seen you or your like-minded posters provide ANY that is contrary to the scriptures.


that is because you read posts with such a narrow minded, one sided, biased approach that you couldn't recognize anothers well rounded reasonable argument if it were there slappin you in the face. this is evident just from this post you so 'delicately' tried to reply to.

After all "the Bible IS perfect"..right?

ever wonder why the Bible needs soooo much defence from its loyal subscribers?

If it were "PERFECT" as you arrogantly stated, dont you think it would be knocking doubters out of the park everytime? maybe it would appeal to EVERYONES sense of human nature..since we are all humans, correct? but that is simply not the case, unfortunately. Some people doubt and don't take it as infallable. and some are SO scared they could be wrong they do everything they can to diminish other perspective and critical thinking.

and there are those that give the case "oh its perfect alright...See..it says it right here...in verse blah blah, chapter blah blah, book blah blah.." never have I heard it is perfect because of this example or that example.

and like i previously stated before. i would be more than happy to retract EVERYTHING I have said in this post and other posts if someone can give some serious evidence in validating the Bible and its claims (specifically the covenant between 'God' and Abraham)

so as i have stated before the ball is in the christian court. provide the evidence or be prepared to face many skeptics on all fronts. and if your knowledge is limited so that you can not find anything to say except: "the Bible IS perfect because it is" then just keep it to yourself...sorry

the people in the Bible, self-admittingly were not perfect, and these main characters were not even the ones who actually put the pen to the paper and wrote most of the thing. So you are taking a third party account (not to mention the many arguments and debates about the authenticity of the claims themselves) and calling it perfect.

if that is not dillusional then i don't know what is.



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 12:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
if you are so positive that the bible is so infallable then why even respond? especially without taking into consideration as to why certain questions are being asked in the first place...you dont even consider considering the possiblility that there may be something to all the skepticism about the bible....if your beliefs are so concrete in your being, then what would be the point in even debating different aspects of christianity?


You just did it again, ABS!


"Why is no one answering my questions!?! (
) But if you answer my questions, it is because you feel compelled to defend your not-so-concrete faith."



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 01:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by luxor311
 


I've said this a million times before and will say it again. Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Raelians, Jews, and Buddhists all assume they are correct. The only group that might not be included in this is Agnostics.
[edit on 2/12/2008 by AshleyD]

I know this reply goes a page or two back, but I just wanted to clear something up about the eastern religions likeTaoism Jainism Hinduism and Buddhism,
They almost NEVER assume they are correct. (this is assuming i am correct lol) They will be the first to tell you everything they know is wrong, and the truth can only be found within, beyond what is conveyable to words, the moment you think you are correct via words, you fall so far away from what that truth is that jesus was teaching about in the first place.
I have yet to meet a practicing monk of eastern tradition that will deny the christ or his teachings, yet can still be within the grounds of their own original teachings. Why it doesnt go both ways all of the time is just a great example of the language barrier we suffer here in the 21st century.

and just for the record, no man is a fool but by his own accord. we shouldn't be in here passing judgment on people no matter what we THINK is true.
(is me thinking people are passing judgment, me passing judgment? oops, yes it is!)
chances are we will all do whatever it is we do, and in the end, our bodies will all decay like the rest of the material universe, and all of the words we made up to describe our own discrepancies along the way will be the only hell we serve. such truth restricting limitations that we trust more than the actual voice of god when it speaks.
(im just an observer who's point will always be lost in translation so dont mind me and dont be bothered by what i say, as far as the universe is concerned, I does not exist.)

[edit on 9-3-2008 by psychedeliack]



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 02:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic


and here we go! a comeback I suppose was the intention here.. please point out when and where I said evolution was the all-encompassing answer that you seem to be implying somehow?









Bible being perfect is a different matter, since it IS perfect!
The Living Word.


hallelujah folks!..you heard it here..the bible IS PERFECT! thank you for revealing the 'forbidden knowledge'....


Hallelujah! YES! it is perfect.

"The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). The King James Version-- relying upon the Textus Receptus or the Received Text, which has been known as the Majority Text or Universal Text from the Byzantine family of Greek manuscripts [MSS] of the New Testament-- preserves against the corrupting tendencies found in the modern translations. "Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him" (Proverbs 30:5). The Alexandrian Text-- once identified as the Minority Text or the Egyptian Text-- with its non-Biblical Apocrypha and Gnostic tendencies were used to produce the Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament (1881), which are found in those modern translations. "18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this Book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this Book" (Revelation 22:18-19)


Also, there is Much evidence in the ruins of ancient cities!
How does archaeology prove the bible And PLEASE check out my signature!



. i hope god gave you a big pat on the back for it..or maybe a star by your name in the book of peter next to the pearly gates...


We have our reward. My main goal is to open people's eyes to the truth BEFORE it is too late. DEATH.




please enlighten us on these pearls of wisdom...we understand your intellect tips the scale is on a much higher level than the rest of us foolish goyim..so please...do tell

I'm not that smart, but God has given me wisdom through his Bible and Love! Pearls of wisdom, such as prophesy, instruction, to know who we are and who God is!
If you want to discuss goyim, please go Here.






i am more than willing and more than happy to recognize a well thought out reply from a devout christian. And I would absolutely consider re-converting to christianity if clarifying evidence surfaced that defied my understanding and interpretation of the Bible.{/quote]

Many could do it better than me, but, I've said what I think is good.



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 03:19 PM
link   
Its because if they do not fully believe then they go to hell. You have to be right to go to heaven. If they are wrong they are just worm dirt like everyone else.



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 03:56 PM
link   


Inerrancy is the view that when all the facts become known, they will demonstrate that the Bible in its original autographs and correctly interpreted is entirely true and never false in all it affirms, whether that relates to doctrine or ethics or to the social, physical, or life sciences.

source

I used to have big problem with people saying the Bible was perfect. Note the doctrine of inerrancy states "in its original autographs" which we don't have... this means that no present manuscript or copy of Scripture, no matter how accurate, can be called inerrant. The Romans burned up most of the old stuff when they sacked Jerusalem. However, comparisons to the Dead Sea Scrolls have verified that what we have today is very very close. Close enough for me not to be too concerned... the discrepancies are minor.



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 02:24 AM
link   
reply to post by AshleyD
 


pick and choose ashley. pick and choose what it is you want to highlight and reply to...the easy road well taken with a twisting if intent..golf clap for you


your words are a testament to how you stand up for the ideologies and beliefs you so desperately grasp...and the testament has turned weak to say the least (especially when that road of 'evidence' that apologetecists try and take runs head on into a brick wall )...you do not even begin to approach the tougher questions..instead you give a pathetic attempt to mock someone trying to gain and give an equal amount of perspective...

i suppose face has to come out behind the veil at some point, eh?



for anyone taking a moment to consider what some of these fundamental christians put on the table as 'evidence' and truth regarding their beliefs..feel free to look at some of ashley d's links to "tough bible questions answered"...spend 5 minutes and you will begin to see the "evidence" that is presented...biased..and an attempt in providing philisophical tough answers to EASY questions.

but what ever you do..don't ask a question and expect to get a complete answer. expect a response trying to be philisophical with a holier than thou attitude that answers nothing besides the trivial..for anyone else trying. good luck


and let me pose this ONE MORE TIME to any christian/ jew/ muslim/ christian aplogetic historian/ bible thumper willing to take a shot. what evidence is there that supports the covenant between God and the biblical Abraham?

Anyone?...anyone at all?

one person said there is none, but you have to have faith to believe it so you can 'see the big picture'...

so I ask: first) what is the big picture? it seems to me from my own interpretation and understanding the MAIN objective of the bible is to achieve a relationship with your creator....so again. what is the 'Big Picture'? Second) in what way does this section/part of the Bible..this very important piece of history that has influenced sooooo many lives throughout the ages, even until today have to do with YOUR personal relationship w/ God?

How will believing this part help you achieve a stronger spiritual bond with the very same god that supposedly made this 'covenant'? Afterall, that is what the bible is about, is it not? I

I believe this is the most significant point in the Bible concerning where the judeo/christian faith bases its roots, and I ask these questions in humbleness and a desire to truly understand the pure (if it is there and not what I believe it to be) nature of these words.

If an answer can not be given in the way it was originally meant to be understood then i ask you to ask yourself.

Why is this ever so important piece of the puzzle included?

Could there be an alternative, more devious, motive than what is portrayed in church and christian teachings? (not saying that ALL people who have taught christianity and judaism have supported a possible devious motive willingly. I am 100% sure the state of heart and mind with most christians/ jews/ muslim is pure with no agenda attached....and they truly believe their faith is divinely influenced..hence the willingness to die and kill for said religion) But i don't think there is enough attention given to this specific slice of the massive pie.

And IF this (an alternative motive for the covenant) IS possible then maybe the Bible is not 100% infallable. Maybe part of it was written with selfish objectives in mind..Maybe this piece of it could have been fabricated. And if it has been fabricated what are the implications throughout history?

Well it is simple really...the implications are wars, genocide, a span of power and control unequaled and a constant flow of corruptive influence in power positions. If it were not for this 'covenant' PEACE may be actually achievable in the middle east and beyond.

Another question worth asking. God is omniscient, correct? If the 'god' in the bible is omniscient, then why would 'he' not understand the implications of such a biased covenant? why would he subject humans to a covenant that could easily be misconstrued by everyone who was not included, especially when 'he' knows human nature better than all, and he knows this covenant is directed toward a specific group of people that could possibly use it as leverage to control (which undoubtedly is exactly what has happened and ALL the evidence is right there for anyone to see it..if you like I can provide ample amounts)?

in what way does this add up?


I really am interested in finding out how this piece fits in the christian bubble. I certainly encourage the most devout christian to speak up and give an eye-opening perspective.

oh, I almost forgot..please do me the favor and leave out the knee jerk reaction comments such as: "the Bible IS perfect" so that makes it true...
if that is your overwhelming evidence then by all means find another christian and try to drill it in their head. my head hurts from all the prodding :-,



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 03:08 AM
link   
reply to post by Clearskies
 



Hallelujah! YES! it is perfect.



whoa dude, you win. cant argue that!.....anyways...



Also, there is Much evidence in the ruins of ancient cities!
How does archaeology prove the bible And PLEASE check out my signature!


never said there were NO truths in the historilogical accounts of the Bible. Although I presonally call into question many of them. On this thread I am only talking about one. the covenant between abraham and god.

your link did absolutely nothing in way of proving anything at all. so im not sure what that was about, actually. yes i have heard about nephilim and the annunaki as you have there in your signature.

if you are a sitchin guy then you are really contradicting your own beliefs...and sitchin has been debunked thouroughly. and it was something i was beginning to dig deeper into, honestly looking for answers and all. But if i remember correctly, basically the 'debunking' if that is what you want to call it was based off his ancient linguistic knowledge. basically, he misenterpreted much of the ancient sumerian words that are vital for his thesis to be validated.

although i can find reason in claims that there could have been some sort of extra terrestrial influence in the development of human consciousness...but i have no evidence to claim it nor would i ever claim it as truth...just mere speculation


We have our reward. My main goal is to open people's eyes to the truth BEFORE it is too late. DEATH.

and u do this by screaming "the bible IS perfect" at everybody? can i ask u one question?...does it ever work?


If you want to discuss goyim, please go Here.

dude, i could careless about discussing the word goyim. u obviously missed my entire point, again.

and which prophecy from the Bible has been fulfilled? please dont say the jews regaining the promised land...please read my other post before you say that one..please

oh and if you are into documentaries..check out "the ring of power". u can find it on youtube or google video...it is kind of an all in one conspiracy video..i dont subscribe to everything it says because it makes too many assumptions, but it does kind of put things into perspective, and a lot of it can be corroborated.



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 03:21 AM
link   
Christians always think they're right because if they thought they were wrong, they might be Buddhist. If an Atheist thought they were wrong they might be a Baptist...

Sorry, I couldn't resist.. I need to go hide from flying objects now



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 11:54 AM
link   

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
pick and choose ashley. pick and choose what it is you want to highlight and reply to...the easy road well taken with a twisting if intent..golf clap for you


Exactly. Pick and choose. Why? Because sometimes we have to realize when we're wasting our time with people who do not listen, twist our words, and use the same double standard you have done: 'If you answer me you're threatened. If you don't, you're scared.' You did it on the other thread, too.

Oh, to answer your question about Egypt and the Jews. Ever heard of the Ipuwer Papyrus? The Sinai Inscriptions? The heiress lamentation? Probably not. When I ignored your question on the other thread, it's not that I didn't know. It's that I knew it was pointless because I'd lose either way.


Take care.



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 02:47 PM
link   
reply to post by abelievingskeptic
 


I am not a 'dude'. I'm an older 'Lady'.
AND, I have never read or heard any material of Sitchin's.
I believe what the Bible says about the fallen Angels and Jesus the Faithful! And God!



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 09:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by abelievingskeptic
 

[quote
I am not a 'dude'. I'm an older 'Lady'.


I do apologize. It is impossible to differentiate on a public forum. If it is a concern to you how you are addressed then i suggest you make that known before hand. But again, I do apologize. No disrespect intended.



AND, I have never read or heard any material of Sitchin's.


ok. in the literal sense of the nephelim sitchin was a big proponent. except in a much different way than what you were thinking.



I believe what the Bible says about the fallen Angels and Jesus the Faithful! And God!


good for you.
i hope it is as fullfilling as possible, really.
i have never have had a problem with peoples personal decisions regarding what they believe.

the problem exists when people claim their theorys and beliefs to be infallable and then ignore the evidence and logic that contradicts those claims. i encourage all faiths and beliefs to keep an open mind about every and all belief system they wish to subscribe to.

good luck with your pursuit of spirituality



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 09:32 PM
link   
Hmmm.


I think they think they are right because they read a book they have no concept of, and if they were GOOD human beings, they'd realize they need to wage war against the NWO.



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 10:06 PM
link   

Originally posted by TruthIsNow
I think they think they are right because they read a book they have no concept of, and if they were GOOD human beings, they'd realize they need to wage war against the NWO.


Not quite, my friend. No book in the history of man warns against the NWO quite as loudly as the Bible does.



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 10:40 PM
link   
reply to post by AshleyD
 


The NWO is the government of the Antichirst. The Illuminati or world elites pretend to embrace Christianity, that's what confuses a lot of people, they are really satanists at heart. they worship personal power and money.

The one world system has been predicted since the Old Testament why do people think it's a new idea?







[edit on 3/10/2008 by Bigwhammy]





new topics
top topics
 
16
<< 12  13  14    16 >>

log in

join