250+ 9/11 'Smoking Guns'

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999


As ususal, you are certainly entitled to you biased self-appraisal.

I prefer to get back to the topic "250+ 9/11 'Smoking Guns"

Not sure why everyone gives Orion so much crap......I guess its easy to take things personally. To actually choose to ignore is juvenile when there is a discussion that is being held. Look there are 250+ arguments stated on here. Go ahead and debunk a few here and there as speculation, or just plain wrong. The fact remains, if half of this stuff is true, which is more than likely the case....SOMETHING IS WRONG. Its obvious! look the other way...defend the official story. E

Everything I have seen against this is either a personal attack against the author, or debunking of a few points being made. There was a lot of time and energy spend creating this list, and its impressive to say the least. To even begin the debunking process one is going to have to systematically shoot down at least 50% of the points made, or else its pointless.... Sure one could make the point, if they make one false claim, it pretty much debunks everything they say. Not so...THis is not a philosophical argument, it is something taken from OUR American media. We have access to all of this information. It is just compiled.

please begin to debunk and provide sources. My guess is its not going to happen....there are just going personal attack slung around.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
Especially when Mr. DeMartini radioed that as he was inspecting the impact zone of one tower, that he believed there was a danger of a collapse?????

you've said this twice, now(that i know of).
do you have a source for this tidbit?

yeah I dont think you will find a source for that. I think he stayed in that building rescuing people because he DID NOT think they would collapse

Originally posted by Jeff Riff Look there are 250+ arguments stated on here. Go ahead and debunk a few here and there as speculation, or just plain wrong. The fact remains, if half of this stuff is true, which is more than likely the case....SOMETHING IS WRONG. Its obvious! look the other way...defend the official story.

But according to some people here if you prove one or 2 to be false then all the list get thrown out the window because the credibility of the author its in question.

I know that's not your statement but a fellow of your CT's said so when talking about Swampfox rebuttals.

Anyways, I went through the list and to call it 250 smoking guns is just deceiving, that's one of my big problems with CT, that they claim to have the "Super Smoking Gun" or 100% PROOF! of this and that, its just deceiving, and then when someone look at it and raise a few questions, I'm wrong for asking.

This list is comprised of 250 statements and between those 250 are good points, unverifiable good points, conjectures and speculations, eyewitness accounts that lead to more speculation, and statements that are completely irrelevant to what happen that day. They are hardly 250 SG!

[edit on 24-1-2008 by Bunch]

Bunch, now that we at ATS are aware of this :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

we all know at last why we will not be able to ever convince any present military men or women on this forum of the historical truth of 9/11, because your employer will punish you with harsh measures if you ever will show any signs of doubting the official story of what happened at the Pentagon, and at other places during 9/11 where the military could have been involved, like flight 93. Or the stand down of the Air Force during critical hours on 9/11.

I even start to doubt that the military will allow you to visit this particular forum while on duty, and as you or others said in that thread, the army expect you to be on duty 24/7, and you signed, to be always on duty until you leave the force, when you stepped forward to serve your nation.

So, your only possible lawful existence at these boards could be, in my eyes, to defend at all costs, the DoD's point of view on the events of 9/11.

I could even argue, following logic when reading above link, you have to obey special orders when you show up here while on duty.
I repeat, you are on duty 24/7, period!

If not on duty, you are exposing yourself to enemy combatants propaganda.
Since I expect your present superiors to see us, 9/11 researchers, as such.

Any other cause for participation in these discussions could be construed as illegal in the opinion of your employer.

We will have to look at all military personnel's participation in these 9/11 forum threads from now on as highly suspicious, the punishment of this decorated war hero can not lead to any other conclusion.

You are on DUTY. Even behind your privately owned box.
And you can not ever utter a shroud of doubt of the performance of the military during 9/11, because then you are in violation of your DUTY, namely, to not ever doubt in word or writing, your superiors viewpoints, which could lead to a weakening of the MORALE of the troops at WAR.
They are obliged to shoot you after a war tribunal for uttering any doubt in public.

WHAT UTTERLY CRAP your side can come up with.
If it wasn't so sad, it would be bordering hilarious.

reply to post by LaBTop


Just a couple pf points regarding your post. Me as a person, as an individual can express my views all I want.

Now I cant jump on my military computer a send email to all my superior and subordinates telling them that 9-11 was an inside job and the military has anything to do with it.

We in the military discuss things on a daily basis, our personal views, beliefs and such, with respect and decorum and that is that. I have some doubts about what happen on 9-11, but you wont see me expressing them on my job.

I have some serious issues with the War in Iraq (which by the way I have post them here), and we in the military talk how screwed up it was handle. Now you wont see me expressing those views at my job.

We in the military have to walk a fine line when it comes to expressing our views and opinions no doubt about that, but there no one telling me how I need to think or speak, I do so on my own and choose the right places and times to express those.

reply to post by LaBTop


You said it much more eloquantly than I did in that thread. That's what I was trying to get at when I said about most of the debunkers around here are military.

reply to post by Bunch


But, remember that you are still government property. You said so yourself. Have you been chipped yet? Joking......

reply to post by Griff


Chipped.... it took me a while to get that one!

Look Griff, I wish I get paid extra for posting in these boards. The matter fact is that I personally would like to know more about what happen that day than I think anybody on these boards (I have my reasons). You guys do amazing work here and I respect that, sometimes it gets out of line, but hey we all have our good days and our bad days. Some of you might think that I come here as a goverment puppet and I see how can you see that, but I dont. I come here as many of you do, looking for truth.

Look at this Killtown list, I already says that he raises some good legitimate points, I wont call them "Super Smoking Guns" but they still some good points. Now im I being subversive to the military by doing so? I dont think so. But like I said earlier, that doesnt mean that I will sent an email in my Government computer and send a mass email telling people to go and checkout this Killtown list.

Hope I make sense.

Originally posted by Bunch
Hope I make sense.

Perfect sense. And I don't mean to come off as a jackass either. I think if you've seen my posts, you can agree that I'm one of the more rational (I mean no offense to my truther brothers and sisters ). I'll eat crow any time I'm wrong (I've done it before here). Anyway, cheers.

[edit on 1/24/2008 by Griff]

Bunch, I must admit you at least keep up decorum, and don't shift into overdrive patriotism gear.

Do me a favor, if ever you come to the conclusion that there is something utterly wrong with the total 9/11 picture painted by the present administration, do keep it for yourself, until you retired from the military.
Just like my brothers did.

Look up posts on this board about the doubts ret. General Partin has about the Oklahoma City bombing, and his detailed explanation why he doubt the official "truth". I salute that man. As I salute many more former or present military men and women for their deeds and outstanding behavior in life threatening situations.
Sadly enough, there are also a bunch of cowards in the service, who deserve nothing else than a firm boot in the behind. To everybody's surprise, most of these cowards were the ones who got rewarded with a raise or promoted.
You know that something stinks to heaven when things like that occur.
Debts being paid off.

reply to post by Bunch


Do you not realize you made self-contradictory statements? You said you felt free to always expressed any thought you desired. And then said you guard what you express to your superiors, because they will not allow you to freely exercise your rights, per the First Amendment, as guaranteed to all US citizens under the US Constitution. You cannot have it both ways.

we all know at last why we will not be able to ever convince any present military men or women on this forum of the historical truth of 9/11, because your employer will punish you with harsh measures if you ever will show any signs of doubting the official story of what happened at the Pentagon, and at other places during 9/11 where the military could have been involved, like flight 93. Or the stand down of the Air Force during critical hours on 9/11

The historical truth? Now thats a riot. As for "convincing" those of us in the military, you will have to do better than rehashed, debunked conspiracy theories, witness you once again mentioning the fictional "stand down" of the Air Force. Real evidence would be a start. As for our employer, provided we dont waste our on duty hours with this, or use government computers/speak as a government rep, they really dont care if we post to sites like this. The MORON in the link you posted, used his official email, from a duty computer to post his foolishness. Misuse of government property will get you in deep crap everytime.

I even start to doubt that the military will allow you to visit this particular forum while on duty, and as you or others said in that thread, the army expect you to be on duty 24/7, and you signed, to be always on duty until you leave the force, when you stepped forward to serve your nation

I know that our system blocks out ATS...as it does almost all bulletin board type sites.

So, your only possible lawful existence at these boards could be, in my eyes, to defend at all costs, the DoD's point of view on the events of 9/11.

Nope. I dont need to defend the truth. I come here for laughs....and to shake my head at ravings of some.

I could even argue, following logic when reading above link, you have to obey special orders when you show up here while on duty.

Special orders??? LOL

If not on duty, you are exposing yourself to enemy combatants propaganda.

LOL

We will have to look at all military personnel's participation in these 9/11 forum threads from now on as highly suspicious, the punishment of this decorated war hero can not lead to any other conclusion.

Pretty narrow minded view.

They are obliged to shoot you after a war tribunal for uttering any doubt in public.

Sorry, this isnt China.

WHAT UTTERLY CRAP your side can come up with

That should be UTTER crap......and have you read YOUR post?

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999


I do not know too many people willing to do what you do in these discussions, and not expect to be paid for it.

Time to look at more of the guns...

A MASCAL (mass casualty) exercise about a terrorist incident involving an explosion is conducted at Fort Belvoir near the Pentagon to test first team's "external response."

Once again, this isnt a smoking gun, its recurring training. Means absolutely NOTHING in regards to 9/11.

July 15, 2001 - Two 400-foot-high gas tanks, known as the Maspeth Avenue Holders, are imploded by Controlled Demolition, Inc (CDI) near the WTC.

At least 6 miles away from the WTC. What does this prove? Again, absolutely nothing.

Jeff Birnbaum

When we got to about 50 ft from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go. The way I see it, it had to be the rivets.

The way he sees it, it was the rivets that were popping.....yep...thats definitely a smoking gun....NOT.

Louie Cacchioli

We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building. I had just asked another firefighter to stay with me, which was a good thing because we were trapped inside the elevator and he had the tools to get out." - People (09/12/01

More on Mr. Cacchioli....

Furthermore, Cacchioli was upset that People Magazine misquoted him, saying "there were bombs" in the building when all he said was he heard "what sounded like bombs" without having definitive proof bombs were actually detonated

www.arcticbeacon.com...

Even more from Mr. C..

At that time, the doors closed and that's when the power went out. Which, what we found out later was when the south tower fell down. They were able to force their way out of the elevator and for some reason the guy from the truck, from 13 truck, went to the right and he went to the left and found a stairwell and he was able to make it out.

So, when you read his WHOLE testimony, he states that the loud, explosion like noises he was hearing...was the south tower's collapse.

Score another mistruth from Killtown

The North WTC Tower collapses -- in 8 seconds -- even though it was hit before the South Tower

Video suggests a bit longer....as in over 14 seconds for the collapse. The second part about "even though it was hit..." is a red herring. The south tower was hit much lower and closer to the corner which subjected the south tower to more stress than the north tower.

/11 - Immediately after the WTC's second tower fell, Jeb Bush declares a state of emergency in Florida with no termination date even though no acts of terrorism occur in his state.

Already blasted this one, if you read killtown's site it mentions the "emergency" order that Bush signed on Sept 7, which was actually nothing more than a routine executive order.

9/11 - Frank A. De Martini, Manager of WTC Construction and Project Management who said he believed that the WTC twin towers could withstand multiple crashes from a jetliner, is killed at the North WTC tower on the 88th floor.

Again, this means absolutely nothing. He worked at the WTC and was killed in the collapse. The statement about his opinion of the towers construction is another red herring.

9/11 - Over a billion dollars in gold and silver were stored in a vault under the WTC 4

And was recovered and returned to its rightful keepers....again, a red herring. BTW Killtown, quit watching "Die Hard With a Vengeance"

Then he posts plenty of quotes from firefighters about WTC7..yet the majority of them speak of the building falling...not being imploded....Actually one of the quotes speaks about how they were afraid WTC7 was going to fall into what was left of the North Tower (NOT a possibility with a controlled demolition)

9/11 (5:20 pm) - The 47-story WTC 7 mysteriously collapses even though no plane crashed into it and its collapse hardly gets any media attention.

No, a BUILDING collapsed into it.

9/11 - Explosions rock the capital city of Kabul in Afghanistan in which The Northern Alliance claims responsibility and the U.S. denies involvement.

The Northern Alliance launches an attack and THIS is a smoking gun??????

• 9/11 (6:15 p.m.) - Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge surveys the crater allegedly created by Flight 93 crashing into the ground from a National Guard helicopter.

Again, HOW is this a smoking gun??

9/11 - Show business notables who cheated death on September 11 included: action superstar Jackie Chan; creator of FOX TV's Family Guy Seth MacFarlane; and Real World New Orleans cast member Julie Stoffer.

YEP that cinches it, Jackie Chan cheated death that day. This PROVES that it was a US led conspiracy.

The towers had no rivets. They were bolted and welded at the joints.

swampfox.
i asked for a source on your claim that martini said the buildings night collapse.

do you have one? i'd really like to see it, if you do.

i also notice you never admitted that private flights for saudis were flying out on the 13th of september on orders from the whitehouse.

c'mon. make it look like you're a genuine seeker, and not (just) a(nother) propaganda agent.

[edit on 25-1-2008 by billybob]

reply to post by billybob


Martini knew the buildings were not going to collapse....that is why he stayed in there. I have looked for sources to support the claims of swampfox and I have not found them.....feel free to look for yourself...I am sure that you have.

And if either of you had bothered to read the first post, I said he REPORTEDLY radioed down that he wanted engineers to assess the building because he was concerned there was going to be a collapse at the impact point.