Are alien greys really that frail (physically)?

I just came across a very interesting article regarding Earth-like terrestrial exoplanets. Basically the article is talking about the importance of plate tectonics to life as we know it. It mentions that the size of our planet makes it a borderline case for plate tectonics -- any smaller and it would be tectonically dead (like Mars and Venus). For the purpose of discussion, here are some points from that article that relates to the thread topic:

Plate tectonics are crucial to a planet's habitability because they enable complex chemistry and recycle substances like carbon dioxide, which acts as a thermostat and keeps Earth balmy.[..]

The team found that super-Earths would be more geologically active than our planet, experiencing more vigorous plate tectonics due to thinner plates under more stress. Earth itself was found to be a borderline case, not surprisingly since the slightly smaller planet Venus is tectonically inactive.

[..]Even better, an Earth-like atmosphere would be possible, while the surface gravity would be up to three times that of Earth on the biggest super-Earths.

Earth: A Borderline Planet For Life?

That last paragraph is what I would like to discuss. It would appear that for life as we know it to exist, the terrestrial ball of rock that supports it has to be between the size of the Earth and smaller than the mass required to become a gas giant. From the article, the largest would be about 10 times the size of our planet, in which case the gravity would be 3 times as strong as it is here.

With that in mind, am I to believe that your stereotypical aliens would look like this?



Look at that neck. How can such a flimsy construct support that massive head? If we are to take Earth as the minimum and the super-Earth 10 times its size as the maximum, then the average exo-planet with a rocky surface (and therefore plate tectonics) would have a force of gravity 50% stronger than it is right now (unless my math is rubbish).

What am I missing here?

Mod Edit: Changed title by beachcoma's request.


[edit on 15-1-2008 by TheBandit795]

Nice post,

I think aliens that developed in high gravity would have to be bigger and stronger than us to move around. I think the smaller species might come from planets with lower gravity than Earth.
Mind you when Major Corso discusses the dissection of the grey aliens he says they have very lightweight bones that are very strong as if they were designed or evolved to resist very high g forces in spaceflight.
There are reports of giant races as well as smaller ones.

Originally posted by Dr X
I think the smaller species might come from planets with lower gravity than Earth.

Well, that's contrary to the point of my post. The implication of the study mentioned in the article suggest that a planet with a smaller mass (and hence lower gravity) might not have extensive plate tectonic activities which are apparently vital for life as we know it.

Unless of course there is some other process that replaces the function of tectonics as quoted in the post in the OP.

By the way, who is Major Corso? That bit about lightweight bones fascinates me to no end. I have another thesis I'm working on and that provides and excellent piece in the puzzle if it's true. Do you have a link or something for that so that I can read more about it?

Beach,

Hello my friend. I have a question though....why is this paragraph/source the model from which any possibility may be derived? Yes, this may be a possibilty, then again maybe not....correct?

I mean, what we are assuming (again, a flaw perhaps) is that all other assumptions are correct. They may not be, and therefore a whole new set of possibilities may exist. The plate techtonics theory may be valid for any extremely Earth-like situation/being. But, maybe things radically change at some certain mass ratio or gravity point????

My point is....how exactly do we know? Yeah, mathematics are assumed to be constant but we really have no other point of reference to comapre it to...................or maybe I am way off!?

Anyway, nice interesting post. Peace, Mondo

Hiya,
Major Phillip Corso is an ex-pentagon official who is now dead but wrote the book the day after Roswell. I highly recommend it. He is a very credible source of information. One of the only ones really.
Do you need to have plate tectonics on planets for life to evolve? Surely all you need is the right conditions, energy and water and then some evolution? Interesting that plate techtonics gives the correct conditions on Earth though. Now the tectonics on mars have stopped it is less habitable but is there life there? There is methane in the atmosphere, so perhaps bacterial life.

Hey Mondo and Dr X,

You're right, it's an assumption that's for sure. But as I've mentioned in my opening post, it's an assumption that fits for 'life as we know it'. It may not be necessary for a 'plasma based life-form' for example. Not that I know how those look like or where to even begin looking for them.

But for the purpose of this discussion, I'm limiting it to the type of life we are familiar with -- cellular life. And more specifically, these alien greys. Why? Because the overwhelming majority of those who report abductions or encounters seems to indicate that that is the one we should be particularly interested in. Since these greys look pretty much like your typical vertebrate, we can also safely assume that they emerged under pretty similar circumstances as we did.

Is plate tectonics really necessary for these sort of life forms to evolve? Maybe not. It's possible that a complex mechanism of interdependent bacterial life might serve the function tectonics play. But if we assume that, we also have to assume that that planet where those conditions are present is relatively safe from external influences (meteors, cosmic rays, etc.) that could disrupt the equilibrium of said interdependent microbial life (and therefore their role in recycling and producing the complex chemicals required for life as we know it).

I don't know about you, but those seem like fantastic odds to me. I'm inclined to believe in the principle of Occam's Razor.

Anyway I'm trying to track down the actual research for this press release. Unfortunately the Harvard Origins of Life Initiative website is still under construction.. so I've hit a wall there.

Here is some more food for thought, to further build up the case for the importance of plate tectonics in the development of life as we know it.

Earthquakes Under Pacific Floor Reveal Unexpected Circulatory System

ScienceDaily (Jan. 15, 2008) — Zigzagging some 60,000 kilometers across ocean floors, earth's system of mid-ocean ridges plays a pivotal role in many workings of the planet, from its plate-tectonic movements to heat flow from the interior, and the chemistry of rock, water and air. It was not until the late 1970s that scientists discovered the existence of vast plumbing systems under the ridges, which pull in cold water, superheat it, then spit it back out from seafloor vents -- a process that brings up not only hot water, but dissolved substances taken from rocks below.[..]

"It's an exciting and substantial contribution. It begins to look at some really big questions," said Dan Fornari, a marine geologist at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution who was not involved in the study. Among other things, it is a mystery where vent organisms came from--some evolutionary biologists believe they originated life on earth--and how or whether they now make their way from one isolated vent system to another. The findings could add to an understanding of seafloor currents along which they may move, and of the nutrient flows that feed them. The work also has large-scale implications for how heat and chemicals are cycled to the seafloor and overlying waters, said Tolstoy.[..]

The implication being that undersea volcanism plays a big role in bringing minerals essential for life as we know it to the surface and into the environment. There is also the fact that it may be the major driving force for ocean currents which as we all know affects climate and circulates nutrients throughout the oceans. If life as we know it evolved from the seas, then it is conceivable to think that without tectonic activity to constantly circulate all these minerals, it wouldn't have lasted very long. Certainly not long enough to evolve into the alien greys which are the focus of this thesis.

Oh, one more idea to throw into the mix -- what if these greys aren't really alien, as in they didn't come from the next star system?

hello again,

Yeah the vents of hot water on the bottom of the oceans are really interesting. They prove that you don't need sunlight for life which used to be a requirement I think. They show that life can exist using alternative power sources and chemistries different than what we are used to in our surroundings. I think the discovery of these things has increased the chances of there being life (to out understanding) in places such as Europa, where liquid water exists under the icy surface. In fact Europa has a reddish colour under the ice. I was reading somewhere that this may be due to bacteria. Europa is thought to be warmed from the tidal forces from Jupiter. I really think it is the best candidate for simple life in our solar system.

Back to the greys. I think they are from a different solar system.
They are thought not to have a sex and are cloned. THis means that they were either

1. Ancient and lost the need to reproduce after they started cloning themselves
2. are asexual in some way
3. created by some other race

I think 1 is probably the most logical. If you think about the age of the universe it is highly likely that some race will have existed for a hell of a lot longer than us.

Hi Dr X,

Perhaps they do have different genders, it's just that we don't know how to tell them apart (kinda like how it's hard to tell the gender of a blackbird apart). In fact, I can't tell apart the gender of most birds unless their plumage is different.

Anyway, can you explain why you think they are from another star system? I'm thinking they might be from another time, but not a different system (no time travel here).

Think about it -- of all the possible shape and form they could have evolved into, they evolved into a pretty typically Earth-like vertebrate format. A pair of eyes, a pair of arms, pair of legs and a single mouth. Not to mention most of these parts are in the same position you'd expect of an average Earth vertebrate.

See where I'm going with this?

talking of genders is it reasonable to assume aliens have male/female & trans gendered or gay? I mean they may be so advanced but still have emotions & attachments so I wonder how feasible this it!

strength isnt always the size of the creature

look how fragile ants look and yet they can lift so many times their own weight

i think it has more to deal with than we can figure out

even if they do look physically weak i tend to think they are mentally strong minded

i guess its all how you look at it

kinda like dont judge a book by its cover kinda thing

Originally posted by atsguy_106
talking of genders is it reasonable to assume aliens have male/female & trans gendered or gay? I mean they may be so advanced but still have emotions & attachments so I wonder how feasible this it!

well god in a sense if of both male and female as he created both in his image

wether that actually entails physicalities who knows? it could just mean the essence of both sexes as it tends to go beyond just sex organs

like i said who knows

most stories of angels and all that tend to lead them being either asexual or androgynous with no defined sexual organs

i cant remember where i read it but in some of the sumerian artifacts it showed what looked like people being born of test tube, like their offspring which they couldnt actually spermiate? but rather envelop from DNA and our DNA, woman egg and maybe some sort of male human spermatozoa

in the end, will we ever know?

im not sure

but its great to speculate and wonder

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil
strength isnt always the size of the creature

I don't really have much issue with their whole overall appearance, nor their size for that matter. It's that ridiculously thin neck supporting that large head that puzzles me (hence why I mentioned plate tectonics and gravity strength in the opening post).

There's one possibility I can think of for this. Perhaps they've continued their evolution in space. Low gravity would explain the neck, low light would explain those massive eyes.

Originally posted by Beachcoma

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil
strength isnt always the size of the creature

I don't really have much issue with their whole overall appearance, nor their size for that matter. It's that ridiculously thin neck supporting that large head that puzzles me (hence why I mentioned plate tectonics and gravity strength in the opening post).

There's one possibility I can think of for this. Perhaps they've continued their evolution in space. Low gravity would explain the neck, low light would explain those massive eyes.

good points, i guess the main thing i meant, is we know nothing of their bodies and how they work for that matter

i think its very possible for them to have such a thin neck

and until we actually see one and how they really look and work

we will never know

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Look at that neck. How can such a flimsy construct support that massive head?

If these aliens exist, being that they are alien, we have no idea of the environmental factors that went into their evolution, or their physiological make-up.

However, we can make some guesses. Their head may not be as massive as it seems. Some species of birds have hollow bones, though generally only in those species capable of flight. Still, many birds also have a network of struts and truses in their bone and muscle structure to help support their weight, same could apply to the Greys.

The veterbrae on the neck could be fused, to help support the weight of the head. And the head may be like the human skull, filled with sinuses to reduce the weight.

Or, because they are alien, their structure may not be like any animal we know, and more akin to plants. Look at a flower, for instance...a thin stem can hold a very large blossom.

Originally posted by Beachcoma


There's one possibility I can think of for this. Perhaps they've continued their evolution in space. Low gravity would explain the neck, low light would explain those massive eyes.

I think that's definitely within the realm of possibility.

Also, another further-out-there hypothesis is that these beings do not have to subscribe to the physically dense structure of atomic mass that we do. Perhaps they are multi-dimensional and can literally change the density / weight of their matter through thought / intent?

Just tossing that out there as a possibility...

[edit on 15-1-2008 by DimensionalDetective]

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Good points about the bird anatomical structure and the sinuses within the skull. I like it

Speaking of birds and aliens, have you seen this?



It was taken from Undo's Stargate thread here. Hope she doesn't mind me reposting it here.

Are those feathers I see?

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


Yeah, that's pretty out there, but I wouldn't say it's entirely impossible. We still don't know enough about the universe, much less our own planet. Why recently they discovered that it is possible for the mass of a neutron star to exist above the theoretical limit that would have turned it into a black hole. We still have much to learn.

Anyway, you reminded me of something relating to extraterrestrial. It's this short essay. Hilarious! And possibly true

Then again it is important to remember that these species are capable of manipulating gravity as we know it,
therefor wouldnt it be logical to conclude they would alter the effect gravity has on their own bodies?

I do like this thread!

@Beachcoma

I think it was in Major Corso's book that I read that the greys had no sexual organs, from the Roswell autopsy.

I don't believe this theory that they are from the future either. relativity prevents time travel backwards but allows it forwards.
Intuitively I don't think it's possible because of all the paradoxes that arise.

THe Universe is such a vast place with countless galaxies, let alone stars and planets. We don't need to invent dubious theories to explain alien life. They are clearly from other planets outside of our solar system.
A more pertinent question would be are they from our galaxy?
Some alien encounter reports claim that they come from other galaxies (not the greys though).

Hi Dr X. Thanks for your response and continued participation in this thread.

Originally posted by Dr X
I think it was in Major Corso's book that I read that the greys had no sexual organs, from the Roswell autopsy.

Is that 'no sexual organs' or 'no external sexual organs'? Either way, would they know it if it was staring at them?

Originally posted by Dr X
A more pertinent question would be are they from our galaxy?
Some alien encounter reports claim that they come from other galaxies (not the greys though).

I think it's safe to say there are alien life in ALL the galaxies, in ours or the other local group members. In the case of the greys, I have not heard of anything to indicate that they are not from our galaxy.

Which brings me to the next idea -- given what we've already discussed here, what are the chances that these familiar greys actually came from our own planet? They seem to share a lot of features with birds -- lightweight bones, no visible sex organs, long sinewy fingers and a basic form that isn't that much different than most vertebrate life here on Earth. They also seem to have this excessive fascination with our planet -- a large percentage of alien encounter reports are about them. If their ancestors were from here, it would explain that.

Observe the following:


Taken from this paper

(A-C) Triassic dinosaurs: (A) the ornithischian Heterodontosaurus, (B) the early theropod Herrerasaurus, (C) the neotheropod Coelophysis. (D-E) Jurassic theropods: (D) the tetanuran Allosaurus, (E) the early maniraptoran Ornitholestes. (F-G) Mesosozoic birds: (F) the Jurassic avialae Archaeopteryx, (G) the cretaceous enantiornithe Sinornis. (H-I) Modern birds: (H) the wing of an Opisthocomus (hoatzin) hatchling, (I) the wing of the adult chicken Gallus.

Of course, this is all speculation; they could have evolved from alien bird-like dinosaurs!