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Who has the best Special Forces ?

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posted on Jun, 22 2006 @ 07:18 AM
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i have to say its The Brittish SAS hands down the hardest guys in the entire world ive known 3 guys down the years who have been in it and the storys they can tell me are amazing, i cant imagine what the things they can't tell me are like!




posted on Jun, 22 2006 @ 01:01 PM
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You could never walk more than 100 km with a bottle of water, especially through a desert. You'd die. Period. And you cannot go for a straight twenty-two days without sleep either. The body would either die or stop functioning. Navy BUD/s for SEALs is one of the toughest programs in the world and they go for five days with about 5 hours sleep total, and by the time they finish, they usually can barely walk. The skin in their crotch is raw, some have broken bones, they are half starved, etc...I dunno where you guys get these ideas of other forces that have in-human capabilities supposedly.

And there aren't any best Spec Ops. You can talk to a SEAL, a Ranger, a Special Forces soldier, an SAS soldier, an SBS soldier, a Royal Commando, etc....they're all very tough. They aren't in-human though. They're just highly-trained, highly-dedicated, hard men doing their jobs, that's it.

Saying any of them are "the best" is ignorant. The best at what? Teaching foreign forces and leading foreign forces? Gathering intelligence? Rescuing people? Assassinations? Air traffic control behind enemy lines for combat aircraft? Rescue? What type of rescue? Hostage rescue (like SEAL Team Six)? Rescuing other Spec Ops and/or hostages (Air Force Pararescue)? Rescuing someone stuck in the mountains (Air Force Pararescueman, British Mountain Rescue Team)? Or sabotage? What type of sabotage? Does one spec ops specialize in all sabotage in one nation, while in another nation they may have spec ops for land sabotage and another for water sabotage (for example U.S. Navy SEALs are who would sabotage a ship, U.S. Army Special Forces are who would sabotage a bridge most likely, but they each have many other capabilities as well)?

There CAN'T be a best. For example, Air Force Pararescueman barely have enough time to stay qualified in all their skills and those skills are used specifically for rescuing people (combat-diver, mountain climber, HALO/HAHO parachuting, medical skills, weapons skills).

You wouldn't send Pararescueman in to topple a corrupt government in some small country and free the people (that is for Special Forces). You send them in to rescue the Special Forces if all h*LL breaks loose and they need to be rescued. And you wouldn't send Special Forces to rescue someone if Pararescueman could do it because they could probably do it a lot better. Pararescumen are who rescued Jessica Lynch.

A man could have the ability to operate all day without food or sleep 24/7 and he STILL would never have enough time to stay skilled in all the things one would need to be the most elite Spec Ops in the world.

Spec Ops are elite in their own areas. That's why the Brits have the SAS, SBS, Mountain Rescue, Royal Commandos, the United States has all its own Spec Ops forces, the French have their version of Navy SEALs, etc....

As for toughness, plenty of elite people and athletes are just as tough as any Spec Ops soldier, but they don't have the same training nor the same level of bravery. For example, Army Ranger School gives Rangers, SEALs, Special Forces soldiers, etc.....all a tough time, yet regular Infantryman and other MOSs from the Army go to Ranger School too. So those "regular" soldiers have proven themselves pretty tough as well.

Spec Ops soldiers aren't super-men, they're just highly trained and devoted men doing their jobs.

Some men are very physically fit. Some men are very mentally tough and physically fit (though few are). Even fewer men are physically fit and tough, mentally very strong, and very intelligent. Fewer still are physically fit and tough, mentally tough, intelligent, and brave.

But only a very few men in this world are very physically fit, mentally tough, brave, intelligent, and SELF-LESS. IMO, it is these attributes that make all Spec Ops soldiers the truly elite in the world.

And because of this, I would rate fire fighters right up there with Spec Ops soldiers in terms of bravery and physical fitness.

[edit on 22-6-2006 by WheelsRCool]



posted on Jun, 22 2006 @ 02:10 PM
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You could never walk more than 100 km with a bottle of water, especially through a desert. You'd die. Period. And you cannot go for a straight twenty-two days without sleep either. The body would either die or stop functioning. Navy BUD/s for SEALs is one of the toughest programs in the world and they go for five days with about 5 hours sleep total, and by the time they finish, they usually can barely walk. The skin in their crotch is raw, some have broken bones, they are half starved, etc...I dunno where you guys get these ideas of other forces that have in-human capabilities supposedly.


WheelsRCool, I totally agree with you, but I'm not making the "walk through desert" and training up. It's facts, I'm not a thumb-sucker
I know it sounds impossible but somehow they do it....

But as you said you can never compare special forces and tell who is the best, it is impossible.



posted on Jun, 28 2006 @ 06:10 PM
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ok, as you can tell buy my name, I am supporting the Spetsnaz in this thread. I am new to this site, and so not know what was the last time someone posted, but i feel that the info i have must be said in the Spetsnaz's favor. Aslso i did not read all the posts, just some so if I seem repetative please forgive me.

I suppose the best place to start would be the Spetsnaz operation in Afghanistan, kabul (capitol). Befor launching it's army into Afghanistan the Soviet military deployed a Spetsnaz GRU group into the capital to assasinate the royal family. It consisted of Alfa; 25 men and 6 BMPs and Vympel (i think, maybe Bravo); 25 men and 6 BTRs. also they were backed by 2 ZSUs. they attacked the Royal palace at night. The Shilkas (ZSUs) opened fire on the palace and the 2 squads were deployed via transports. The palace was guarded by 300-400 (sources tell of different #s but all are within those 2) royal palace guards and 2 tanks at the entrance. Weather elitely (most likely since guarding the royal faily) or just military trained that is still a # to be recone with, especially if clearing out a building. Upon drop off I think one of the transports was damaged bad but not destroyed. I do not know who attack from what side, etc. but the outcome of the operation was: the entire palace guard force eliminated, the royal family assasinated, and only 2 casualties in the strike team. Say what you want, but if you are fair in an argument you have to admit; that is pretty dam impressive. This is THE best special operation in the world and has not been topped by any other spec. forces in the world. FACT.

Now I also I keep hearing that the Spetsnaz are illequiped (often that is stretched to include the russian military aswell). Someone posted previously that ex spetsnaz work in the mafia and some worked as mercs for chechnyans and about interviews of russian Spetsnaz members with them stating that they're illequiped.
=
To those of you who make or support those claims. They are partly true. Here's the big chunk of info ALL OF YOU fail to observe (if needed i'll continue this message in a diff post, running out of space) :

After (the 90s) the iron cutain toppled along with the USSR and the Berlin Wall there was tons of claims made about the russian army and it's state. This was made possible due to the lift of the Iron curtain itself. The world could finally get a look into russia. Most (if not all) info made by these claims said that the russian military (this includes Spetsnaz) was horibly trained, paid, equiped, etc. Part of all this was promoted by CIA who finally had it's chance to talk Russia down, the other was just the fact that russia was open for hits. The country was in dissaray. On top of that there was Chechnya, a total disgrace to russia and Yeltsin personaly. BUT; the country was just freshly born. A communist world power now having to opperate in a capitalist enviroment. A whole new goverment. For nearly a century of leaning one way the country now had to lean the other. For those of you who don't know about it let me fill you in (having lived in it myself) total CHAOS. And once something as big as the USSR topples into pieces the looting beggins. And in looting only the bigger profit. AKA the goverment or the Mafia, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. At one point, 98 i think, russia's military budget was nearly 0 cause the asswholes in the goverment were taking all the $ for themselves. HOW do you expect a military to be 100% equiped on that?!?! Please, those of you who make those claims, explain to me. With no money in the country you can't keep a military well maintained. Mind you this has changed now due to Putin and is getting better and better. (continued in following post).



posted on Jun, 28 2006 @ 06:44 PM
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As for chechnya, it was stupid military decision by an almost always drunk yeltsin. Mind you Russia's recovery in about 10 years for a country who changed goverment is AMAZING compared to other countries in the world, not to mention that unlike other countries who went capitalist the new russia recieved hardly as much aid from the capitalist aiding US. The ex-spetsnaz working for the mafia, well, i'll tell you this about them. True, it is not a good thing. However tell me what you would do if you have no sallary, crapy living conditions, and no food and your whole life you've been trained to kill? I shouldn't go into the russian life in the 90s as it is not the topic of the forum, but those of you who make claims like that know that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. Plus, well equiped or not, the russian army has proven in battle and war that it is perfectly capable of putting up a hell of a fight even without supplies and still win. This is mainly world war 2, although WW1 was also a great example of endurance. It is a fact that the most commonly used weapon of a russian soldier in WW2 is either a spade or a knife. As for the Spetsnaz, they are the ELITE of that army. They have those qualities and more. They might not have many great rescue operations (i'm still questioning how many succesfull ones anyone knows here, since i only ever heard of their messups being talked about, i assure you there are plenty, i will look for links to give you later). Their record of succesful military operations is large. I already listed kabul, and I can even tell you of a time a spec. forces group tried to top that. Delta and the US rangers in somalia. I'm talking about "black hawk down". They tried the same thing just wanted to take more credit by not taking armored vehicles like the Spetsnaz, and do it in broad daylight. Other than that the operation is nearly identical. I even recal in the movie one of the senior men saying "they woun't give us armored support, i don't know why". well i just told you why. They even had air support. And even as for equipment, it is only fair to say that russian military equipment is equal (if not ahead as well as behind in some areas) compared to the US military. Why else do you think that US had also found the USSR as it's biggest rival. Why else do you think NATO was created, and even after that one of europe's (and US's) greatest fears was an invasion by the USSR into europe. (largely they feared a nuclear war, bu none the less the US, and NATO were chalenged greatly by the Soviet army, and the russian army now.)
The last christmas (or xmas befor that, not sure) a large terrorist group broke through the border. Alfa hunted it down with ease over night. The survivors said the didn't realize they were being picked off until it was beyond too late.
----
That's why if you're gonna make claims about the Spetsnazes equipment you are only basing your sources on the country's state after the colapse of the goverment. Even during that time Spetsnaz remained amongst top in the world. the 90s was just a dive in their carrier and they are rising up again.

Also all the worlds Special Forces who trained with the Spetsnaz found MAJOR respect for them. look into it.

like i said, they might not be the best in rescueing hostages (then again the way these things happen in russia is very different than the rest of the world. I don't ever recal cases in the world where a building was highjacked by men and women fully straped with c4 except the head, then again, i don't know many situations of hijackings all around the world so i could be wrong, but i know that situations like that happen often in russia. none the lesss the Spetsnaz excel at war.

I've just about said everything i wanted to. lol, i know it's alot.

[edit on 28-6-2006 by Spets]

[edit on 28-6-2006 by Spets]

[edit on 28-6-2006 by Spets]



posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by Eternal_Question
i have to say its The Brittish SAS hands down the hardest guys in the entire world ive known 3 guys down the years who have been in it and the storys they can tell me are amazing, i cant imagine what the things they can't tell me are like!

lol, and how many other special forces operatives stories have you heard.



posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by Eternal_Question
i have to say its The Brittish SAS hands down the hardest guys in the entire world ive known 3 guys down the years who have been in it and the storys they can tell me are amazing, i cant imagine what the things they can't tell me are like!



Right and how many guys do you know from other special forces ? IF none then how can you claim they are the best ?



posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 10:52 AM
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Spetnaz had its share of successes. But most of their actions remain unknown or unpublicized. Usually when there is a hostage seige or similar situation, the spetznaz are brought in, do the job, and leave the seen before the media arrives. To ensure that their tactics and identities remain secret, police or omon usually keep the media away when an opertion is happening. That is why you will likely never get to see spetznaz in action, or spetznaz just sitting talking to the media somewhere. What is known is that they had hundreds of operation in Chechnya and else where in the last decade. Because Chechnyan rebels are well armed, well trained, and battle hardened (many of them are even ex-Russian soldiers), regular police and military tend to lose alot of people when they go in to clear out a village or make arrests.

Under Yeltsin, idiotically new recruits and regular police and military were given the toughest jobs. They had to take on these veteran rebels. Many Russian soldiers were lost in those days, and it is the fault of Yeltsin and his idiot commanders. When Putin came to power though everything quickly changed. With help from the late general Lebed (who is considered a hero in Russia), they turned the war around. Instead of putting new recruits on the front lines, Russia sent OMON and Spetznaz to the job. Death rate dropped dramatically.

Even though they do not have the best equipment in the world, and are vastly underfunded compared to Western counterparts, Spetznaz is a force to be reconned with. They number far higher in manpower than compared forces in the West. Training can only be classified as nonstop and completely brutal. But while the US advertizes its NAVY SEALS and other special forces training everywhere, including movies, Russia is wise to keep its training and tactics secret. If somebody tells you what Spetznaz training and tactics are like, chances are they are lying or making it up.



posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 12:31 PM
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Russia doesn't keep them any more secret than the U.S. does, it's just that no one makes any movies on the Russian forces. The U.S. forces keep their training and tactics pretty secret, no one REALLY knows how SEALs or SF and so forth train. Don't judge by movies! In the one movie, the SEALs jump out of the airplane wearing shoes. But when you see them landing in the water, they have somehow each managed to pull out a pair of fins and put them on while falling, as they're wearing fins when they hit the water.

Spets, you can't make the argument that Spetsnaz are the best, that is impossible. They might be very good at what they do, but they can't be the best. There is no such thing. That is fact. Spec Ops can only be the best in what they do.

Now one can say that the United States overall probably has the best Special Operations but that is because they have such unlimited funding, which allows them to train as much as they want and to have all the absolute best equipment. That was not the case in the late 1970s however, because back then U.S. Spec Ops had very lousy funding.

To the guy about the desert, yes it is impossible to walk across a desert with only one bottle of water. If they walk across it, it is with water. Going without water is not a mental stamina type of thing. It's a physical thing. You might have all the mental stamina in the world, the ability to ignore fatigue and pain completely, and in a desert, with only one bottle of water, you will still fall over in a very short time.



posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 05:56 PM
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ROFL. ok Wheels. Seriously; "it's just that no one makes a movie about Russian Special forces". AGAIN, please tell me, do you keep track of all the movies that come out. Especially Russian movies? For some reason I highly doubt it. However if you'd like to watch some please give me your adress and I will send you all the movies based on or about the Spetsnaz (i'm not talking about documentaries). They may not be top quality, hell I don't even know if the way they display the Spetsnaz is even correct, but they are movies about Spetsnaz nonetheless lol. Please be carefull when making comments like that.

Another thing, and you simply misunderstood what I was saying so I'm not gonna hit you over the head for it. I never said that the Spetsnaz were the best SF in the world. I opened my argument with "i will be supporting the Spetsnaz...". What I said in the following paragraph was that the OPERATION in Kablu that the spetsnaz exiquted was THE BEST Special Forces OPERATION in the world. I never said that the SPetsnaz were the best SF in the world, matter of fact, my point is the same as yours. They are the best at what they are required to do. In that case scenarion it was capture/assasination (allthough the order was assasination the scenario is the same). And to back up the fact that that was the best operation I gave you my share of evidence on a time when another SF group chalenged the Spetsnaz in that field.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by Spets]



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by maloy
Spetnaz had its share of successes. But most of their actions remain unknown or unpublicized. Usually when there is a hostage seige or similar situation, the spetznaz are brought in, do the job, and leave the seen before the media arrives. To ensure that their tactics and identities remain secret, police or omon usually keep the media away when an opertion is happening.


HAHA, the Spetnaz seem to only make the news when they have a massive ciclian body count, something which happens all too often.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 10:13 AM
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rouge, give me an example of any of the Spetsnaz's famouse f*ck ups and i will gladly explain to you the nature of the situation which caused difficulties or the orders they had to carry out.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 10:59 AM
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All I have to say is every countries Special Operations units will kill you just as quick and just as dead as the next Spec. Ops. unit but you cant say the spetznaz are as good as everyone thinks....didnt they get #ed up by the taliban
My uncle is army sf and he always tells me that one of the best parts of the job is going and training with differant SF units around the world. they all can learn from eachother, I dont think you can honestly rank these guys, Who are we to rank them, all we are is computer commandos lol accept for acouple of the folks.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by Spets
rouge, give me an example of any of the Spetsnaz's famouse f*ck ups and i will gladly explain to you the nature of the situation which caused difficulties or the orders they had to carry out.


The best don't make excuses, they get the job done no matter what. Speaking of SPetznaz the Chechan rebels seem to hvae despatched a fair few of them as well.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 06:55 PM
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Xray, it's empty unssuported comments like that which clog up threads. Give me one example of the spetsnaz getting "f*cked up" by the taliban. If there was anyone who was getting attacked by the taliban it is the SOVIET ARMY, not the Spetsnaz. The Spetsnaz aren't freaken frontline troops for god's sake, i would have thought that was obvious. The Spetsnaz attack completely unexpected, undetected, and disappear just as quickly as they appeared. They do not dig trenches. Therefor please explain to me how they could possibly get "f*cked up". Did you even read any on the previous posts? not all but at least some, more or less the most recent posts? You really should. By the way, if you wanna get into F*cked up, here's something for ya; the soviet army lost 20,000 men in afgan in 15 years while the US lost 50,000 in 20 in vietnam.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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hey spets I was just kidding man, I know that they are exceptional fighters I just wanted to see what you would say...I apologize
. Personally speaking of empty minded....lets all argue over who has the best special operations capabilities. This will be fun.
the SAS are the most elite, No the SEALs are better, Spetznas are the best, Special Forces soldier is the best.........they will all equally # you up in a combat situation and three quarters of the people on this sight wouldn't have the balls to even attempt to complete any of there training let alone accompany them in combat. If all of you guys Know so much why don't you actually do something about it. join,work you balls off, complete the training then say your unit is the best, that's what I'm doing
peace
I think rambo is a pretty awsome soldier, He kicked some ass man

[edit on 30-6-2006 by 18XRay]



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 01:21 AM
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I agree that it is idiotic to argue whose special forces are the best. The best special forces are those you will never hear about.

The point is that Spetznaz are on par with the best in the world. Chances are no two countries' special forces will ever go head to head against each other. Spetznaz never had any known f*ck ups. Please point out 1.
-If you say Nordost theater in Moscow:
You could not be any more wrong. The sneaked into the theater undetected, neutralized more than a dozen terrorists armed with ak's and bomb detonators, killing every single one in the process. The terrorists didn't even get a chance to fire for the most part. There were no injuries among the Spetznaz and no civilians died. The deaths resulted after the seige, because the medics didn't know how to correctly treat the gassed victims.
-If you say Beslan:
You must know absolutely nothing about what actually happened. Spetznaz never got a chance to act. The whole thing was triggered accidentally by an idiot terrorist.

In Chechnya Spatznaz lost very few men. Regular soldiers and OMON- yes but not Spetznaz. And the rebels they were fighting were battlehardened veterans much like spec ops themselves. Most opperations were actually very successful.

Please point out 1 single failure please?

I can point 1 out for US- The botched rescue mission of Iranian hostages. Althought the failure was not the fault of the spec ops themselves, the whole operation was full of flaws. But this in no proves that American spec ops are badly trained or worse than Spetznaz. Sh*t happens even to the best, but they remain the best.

[edit on 1-7-2006 by maloy]



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 01:40 AM
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Didnt the spetnaz kill a bunch of people in that opera theater?



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 02:35 AM
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IF america wanted to buy the russian special forces that means russian operations in the force are very succesfulll theres a reason why america was interested in there team



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by $tranger
Spetsnaz (Spetsialnoye nasranie) is a general term for "Special Forces, SpecOps" in Russian.

Currently, there are three types of spetsnaz units known: Spetsnaz FSB (counter-terrorist and anti- deversant), Spetsnaz MVD and Spetsnaz GRU (army spetsnaz).

Spetsnaz FSB has two groups of special forces, "Alfa" team (A) and "Vega" team (B) (formerly used to be known as "Vympel"). The Alfa team specializes in counter-terrorism, and it is one of the most respected CT units in the world. The Vega team is a relatively new squad, made of members of the original "Vega" squad (that used to belong to MVD, before the USSR demise), and veterans of "Vympel", one of the most feared saboteur group in the cold war. The new Vega squad is now responsible for anti-diversant operations, mainly concerned with the security of atomic energy plants.

Spetsnaz MVD has some Spetsnaz of the Interior Troops units, like "Vityaz", "Rus", "Rosich", "Skif", "Grom", etc. Basically you can think of them as Russian Rangers. They are highly trained, well equiped troops of army spetsnaz soldiers. For example, the unit "Rus" had participated in many combats in Chechnya, and its few casualties were justified with hundreds of Chechen rebels killed (approximately, 1 to 200). Their missions can vary from just reconnaissance missions, to an assault, or even they (especially "Vityaz") sometimes serve as the back up team during the counter-terrorist operations of Alfa.

Spetsnaz GRU are considered the most secret units and most skilled soldiers of the Russian Army. They are shadow warriors of GRU (National Reconissance Agency). Not only they are one of the best infantry in the world (in the mid 1990s, there was a competition in Alaska, USA, of Spetsnaz GRU and US Rangers. Rangers managed to be first only in one competition - lifting weights. Spetsnaz GRU was better in any other aspect, including running, target shooting, stealth, etc), they also have one of the best combat divers in the world. The units of spetsnaz GRU have no official names, such as of Spetsnaz MVD. So, they have only numbers, for example, "18th Brigade of Spetsnaz". Little to nothing is actually known about the operations of Spetsnaz GRU, but it is known that the units were heavily participating in wars in Afghanistan and Chechnya.

Rumors say that the most secret agency, SVR (Sluzhba Vneshnej Razvedki, Russian analogue of American CIA) has also its own Spetsnaz unit, called "Zaslon". but nothing is known about them so far, and of course the Russian government will not acknowledge the existence of this group officialy.


thi is from page 5 of this thread but I see not many people saw this part of the thread and I feel that it says everything i'd like to say.




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