The USA was founded by Secret Societies and Not Christianity.

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posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by masonica_esoterica
 


But how do you explain the masonic symbols on the dollar bill? It's not exactly a matter of interpretation. Also, many of the nation's founding fathers were in fact Freemasons.

J.




posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by jimbo999
 


What masonic symbols on the dollar? There is none. Many of our founding fathers were also male. Does that mean there is a male conspiracy?



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by jimbo999
 


Hello Jimbo999,
First of all, let me say that I am not a mason, ok.
Secondly, I do know for a fact my ancestral forefather came over on the Mayflower in 1621 to settle in the new land and his father supposedly was a bishop from Leyden, Holland. My forefather died on the journey, but luckily for me, not before my blood line was started from the first baby born on the Mayflower, I feel as though he was to spread the word of christianity, but he didn't make it, I dont know or possibly will ever know if he was a mason.
My forefather from my moms side stepped onto american soil in 1655 and he was an ordained minister sent to spread the gospel, but again I will never know if he was a mason.
In my opinion America was founded on good moral christian philosophies, but what do I know, gwhint



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness
reply to post by LDragonFire
 


Oh trust me, it takes a lot more than this to strike a nerve. Especially because this sort of thing has been posted...and debunked...at least three separate times that I can remember.


Hmmm Debunked, highly unlikely since all the facts are not even on the table yet. So using your logic has the Alien topic been proven or debunked, do aliens exist or has that topic been debunked? or any other topic discussed on ATS?


I do not know about these "other secret societies," but I do know that masonry only goes back a few hundred years, at best. There is historical proof of where, when, and how masonry in its current speculative state formed. Of course it is not really a secret society, but I've given up on pointing out that this presumption in these sorts of threads is quite simply wrong.


I'm including All secret societies not just the free masons, and it's not known when it was really formed, there is just speculation.


You have not shown that these "groups" are "controlling" anything. If I put up a huge obelisk in my backyard, does this prove that I am controlling the neighborhood? No, it proves that I have a rather odd taste in making my backyard reminiscent of ancient Egypt. Of course, you still have not proven these groups even put up some of these symbols. Your making a logical leap of incredibly huge proportions.


You have not shown any evidence that debunks my theory that these Groups do Not control anything. You have attempted to derail this discussion away from what I originally posted.


If you think the freemasons built the pyramid, where is your evidence? What about the fact that speculative masonry or even guild masonry is only a few hundred years old? Wheres your proof? Reason? Logic?


Another topic for a future thread, I look forward to your participation, when I post it.


This sort of logic that if anyone disagrees or posts about your topic that its proof its true baffles me. Its such a logical non-sequitur and so obviously wrong I am unsure of what to say. If I post that LDragonFire is really a 360 degree mason that is a disinformation agent and is trying to deflect from the truth that reptilians are controlling the world - would you reply or just let me post it? The fact that its all completely wrong doesn't matter, after all, someone would reply, SO IT MUST MEAN ITS TRUE!


If I where to say that You are a 360 degree mason attempting to derail or to add disinformation to a topic that has struck a nerve, would anyone believe it? Does it mean this is true?

So what is completely wrong with the theory that secret societies formed the USA? Where is the evidence that the USA was formed as a Christian nation? There is none. But there are little tidbits like this:


What’s of interest to the Mason traveling in the immediate Washington, D.C., area? To begin, consider the United States Capitol building. On September 18, 1793, President and Brother George Washington participated in a Masonic cornerstone laying ceremony which has been memorialized by several artists. One of these is a famed mural by Allyn Cox in the “Capitol Collection” on the vaulted hallway ceiling in the eastern north–south corridor of the Capitol’s House of Representatives wing. Benjamin Henry Latrobe, one of the Capitol’s principal architects, was a Freemason, and the building includes many details which attract our attention. The Capitol abounds in columns in the Ionic, Doric, and Corinthian Orders of Architecture which, according to our Blue Lodge ritual, represent Wisdom, Strength, and Beauty denominated “the three principal supports of every well-governed Lodge.” Latrobe’s design for the House of Representatives included a canopy with skylights, the “starry canopy” we denominate the “covering of the Lodge.” The columns in the Senate vestibule have chapiters depicting corn, while the vestibule itself leads to a winding stairway. The pediment over the east entrance to the Senate wing, entitled the Progress of Civilization, includes sheaves of wheat, as symbols of plenty. Constantino Brumidi’s fresco, The Apotheosis of Washington, in the eye of the Capitol rotunda, depicts a teacher employing the compasses. Also noteworthy is Thomas Crawford’s and William Rinehart’s magnificent relief of the cornerstone laying adorning the left valve doors of the United States Senate. It depicts Washington in his Masonic apron.
Free Masonrys True National Treasures


And this:

In the central group (37k) of the fresco, Brumidi depicted George Washington rising to the heavens in glory, flanked by female figures representing Liberty and Victory/Fame. A rainbow arches at his feet, and thirteen maidens symbolizing the original states flank the three central figures. (The word "apotheosis" in the title means literally the raising of a person to the rank of a god, or the glorification of a person as an ideal; George Washington was honored as a national icon in the nineteenth century.)
The Apotheosis of Washington


This is just the tip of the iceberg, there is Much more, but I have limited time right now.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


Yes, debunked. What I mean by debunked is that there is absolutely no evidence for it. In the event that you could even find fully-fleshed out shapes - your pentagram IS MISSING AN ENTIRE LEG THAT YOU IGNORED - you still have to (1) prove these are not coincidences and if not that (2) people put them there for a nefarious purpose which somehow indicates a NWO cabal.

You have not even shown 1, and certainly not 2. I can find the letters ATS in washington streets too. Does THIS MEAN that there is an ATS conspiracy to RULE ZE WORLD?


And yes, it is known historical fact when speculative freemasonry under the UGLE was formed: 1717. In the past, Masons have tried to link the fraternity to older organizations which were later disproved. Unfortunately, conspiracy theorists still today use these old outdated conspiracies to spin their tales.

Finally, YET AGAIN we have A LOGICAL FALLACY.



You have not shown any evidence that debunks my theory that these Groups do Not control anything.


Welcome to that old conspiracy theorist favorite, ad ignorantium logical fallacy. I cannot prove that you are wrong - this is true. That I cannot do so does not mean the opposite is true. Finally, this is yet another old time conspiracy theorist favorite - confusing burden of proof. We've been there already - in this very thread. It is not UP TO ME to prove that YOU are wrong. You have to provide evidence for what you say - which you have failed to do. I cannot disprove fantastical theories because they are so fantastical no one has ever written anything about them.

To use the same example, I proposed you are a 360th degree freemason that is using this thread to deflect from the fact that retalians are ruling the world. Prove me wrong.

You can't, because I've offered a fantastical observation that cannot be proved wrong because it is so absurd that no one has ever felt the need to provide contrary evidence. So stop confusing burden of proof.

I have already provided a ton of evidence that this nation retains christian symbolism. I will copy and pate from my old post, since you conveniently seem to ignore everything you cannot refute:




- The Supreme Court has ruled MULTIPLE times that state displays of the ten commandments is constitutional and not in conflict with the establishment clause.
- The Supreme Court Building has a relief that shows Moses as being one of the greatest law givers
- The Washington National Cathedral is designated by the government as the NATIONAL HOUSE OF PRAYER
- Every year, uncountable high ranking government officials attend a MASS at the national cathedral.


Oh the horror, masonic architects used masonic symbolism in building government buildings. How does this prove anything? AGAIN, the architects wanted to create a capitol that would employ the splendor of the greatest of societies, it is no surprise that they therefore use columns and related symbolism. Such symbols are multi-faceted in there meaning: for example, corn is held by many different cultures to signal abundance. You will note that you don't find the square and compass plastered all over the capitol, because the architects were creating a building that used symbols that could be related to things other than explicitly masonry.

I am so tired of talking about the apothosis of Washington, this has been debunked again so many times. You of course convinently didn't bold what the painting actually symbolizes, which is the glorification of a person as an ideal. Washington is a national symbol - not because of his masonic affiliation - but because of what he stood for in terms of his ideals.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 07:47 AM
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Founding fathers and Freemasonry:

74 men were commissioned as Generals in the U.S. Continental Army from 1775 through 1783 33 (46%) were Freemasons
Generals

Including General George Washington:

Washington was initiated, in 1752, in the Lodge at Fredericksburg, Virginia, and the records of that Lodge, still in existence, present the following entries on the subject. The first entry is thus: "Nov. 4th. 1752. This evening Mr. George Washington was initiated as an Entered Apprentice," receipt of the entrance fec, amounting to £23s., was acknowledged, F.C. and M.M. March 3 and August 4, 1753. On March 3 in the following year, "Mr. George Washington" is recorded as having been passed a Fellow Craft; and on August 4, same year, 1753, the record of the transactions of the evening states that White satin Masonic apron emhroidered with Masonic emblems bv Marquise Lafayette. Gift from General Lafayettc to Georgc Washingron, 1784.
George Washington’s Masonic Connections

And there is so much more, and I will add this if you don’t believe Washington’s association with Freemasons:

The Library of Congress contains the George Washington Papers, which may be viewed online. A search inquiry yielded archives which contain actual photographs of original documents either written to or by Washington. The reader may view these documents in their original form. We have also transcribed certain of these letters which demonstrate, not only Washington's close ties to Freemasonry, but his position as Grand Master of the Alexandria Lodge No. 22 of Virginia.
George Washington & Freemasonry

So we have George Washington and 46% of the Continental Army was freemasons. Hmmm isn’t That interesting!
So we will continue with the evidence.

In addition to the signers of the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, thirty-three general officers of the Continental Army were freemasons. Benjamin Franklin, Ambassador to France during the American Revolution, had been Deputy Provincial Grand Master of Pennsylvania. Paul Revere, whose "midnight ride" has been immortalized, went on to become Grand Master of Massachusetts. The Americans' cause of freedom attracted supporters for other countries, including two of Washington's general officers: the Marquis de Lafayette and Friedrich W. A. von Steuben. The "father of the American Navy," Admiral John Paul Jones, was a craftsman, as was, alas, General Benedict Arnold, the traitor. It is often claimed that Thomas Jefferson was a freemason, but no credible evidence exists to support this.

With men of this prominence supporting the revolution, it was no wonder that Americans came to accept freemasonry at the exemplification of ideals of freedom. The capitol of the new nation, the city of Washington, had the support of freemasons at its birth. The first boundary stone of the ten-mile square city was laid at the southern corner by Alexandria Lodge of Virginia in 1791. A year later the brethren of Lodge No. 9 of Georgetown, Maryland, (now Potomac Lodge No. 5 of the District of Columbia) laid the cornerstone of the "President House," which is now known as the White House. (It was later painted white to cover up the smoke stains left when the British burned it during the War of 1812.) The most famous masonic cornerstone laying occurred in 1793 when George Washington, assisted by Alexandria Lodge of Virginia and Maryland's Lodge No. 9 of and Lodge No. 15 (now Federal Lodge No. 1 of the District of Columbia), laid the cornerstone of the United States Capitol.

America's masonic revolutionary leaders are well-known, but national service by masons does not stop there. Fourteen presidents of the United States of America have been Master Masons: George Washington, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, James K. Polk, James A. Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, James A. Garfield, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft, Warren G. Harding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, and Gerald R. Ford. (Lyndon B. Johnson became an Entered Apprentice in 1937, but did not advance further.) These men served their country and fraternity with pride. Two presided as Grand Master of their Grand Lodge: Andrew Jackson, Tennessee, and Harry S. Truman, Missouri.
AMERICAN FREEMASONS AND THE SPIRIT OF FREEDOM


Do you see a trend? Hmm, there just might be something too this, lets continue to search for evidence.


"...There were ultimately five dominant and guiding spirits behind the Constitution - Washington, Franklin, Randolph, Jefferson and John Adams. Of these, the first three were active Freemasons, but men who took their Freemasonry extremely seriously - men who subscribed fervently to its ideals, whose entire orientation had been shaped and conditioned by it. And Adam's position, though he himself is not known to have been a Freemason was virtually identical to theirs. When he became president, moreover, he appointed a prominent Freemason, John Marshall, as first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court." (1)

"Some of the greatest names of the American Revolution were Masons: Ethan Alien, Edmund Burke, John Claypoole, William Daws, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, John Paul Jones, Robert Livingston, Paul Revere, Colonel Benjamin Tupper, and George Washington. Of the 56 signers of The Declaration of Independence, eight were known Masons and seven others exhibited strong evidence of Masonic membership. Of the forty signers of the Constitution, nine were known Masons, 13 exhibited evidence of Masonic membership, and six more later became Masons.
"There were many other Masonic influences in early American history: (1) Lafayette, the French liaison to the Colonies, without whose aid the war could not have been won, was a Freemason; (2) the majority of the commanders of the Continental Army were Freemasons and members of "Army Lodges"; (3) most of George Washington's generals were Freemasons; the Boston Tea Party was planned at the Green Dragon Tavern, also known as the "Freemasons' Arms" and "the Headquarters of the Revolution"; (4) George Washington was sworn in as the first President of the United States by Robert Livingston, Grand Master of New York's Masonic lodge, and the Bible on which he took his oath was from his own Masonic lodge; and (5) the Cornerstone of the Capital Building was laid by the Grand Lodge of Maryland." (2)
THE MASONIC FOUNDATIONS
OF THE UNITED STATES

Again the title of this thread is? It's my theory that All secret societies are connected, including Freemasons, the Rosicrucian, the Illuminati, Skull and Bones, and a few others.



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 08:03 AM
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Just a few more images I thought was cool, and at least interesting.



From Pentagram to Pyramids

Symbolism Everywhere



The significance of the mystical number 13, which frequently appears upon the Great Seal of the United States, is not limited to the number of the original colonies. The sacred emblem of the ancient initiates, here composed of 13 stars, also appears above the head of the "eagle." The motto, E Pluribus Unum, contains 13 letters, as does also the inscription, Annuit Coeptis. The "eagle" clutches in its right talon a branch bearing 13 leaves and 13 berries and in its left a sheaf of 13 arrows. The face of the pyramid, exclusive of the panel containing the date, consists of 72 stones arranged in 13 rows.
Gallery of Masonic Symbols


Whoa they mentioned the pyramids didn't they???? hmmm



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire


Do you see a trend? Hmm, there just might be something too this, lets continue to search for evidence.


I don't think it should be very surprising. It's important to remember that, at that time, our nation's fathers were all Enlightenment liberals. Therefore, it is natural that many would have associated themselves with Freemasonry, which was the liberal Enlightenment club par excellence .


Again the title of this thread is? It's my theory that All secret societies are connected, including Freemasons, the Rosicrucian, the Illuminati, Skull and Bones, and a few others.


I think that we should draw a distinction between "connected with" and "influenced by". Obviously, the Rosicrucians, Illuminati, Skull and Bones, and many others have been strongly influenced by Freemasonry. But this is not the same as saying there is a connection between them.



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


You continue to post a schematic of Wasington D.C.'s streets with a 'pentagram' superimposed over the roadways. As Masons we are charged to study the Liberal Arts and Sciences but especially Geometry. As someone who takes this literally I would be ashamed to actually call that figure a pentagram as it is so grossly exagerated it does not meet the criteria required to be one. I feel a true Masonic architect or craftsman would, if so inclined, properly layout any Masonic symbol that they wished to overtly display and not a bastardized depiction of it similar to the one you continually depict-which as LightinDarkness points out is completely missing one segment.

The Capitol building does indeed have overt Masonic symbolism installed in its rotunda. I find nothing sinister or Machivellian in their use. As MasonicLight pointed out many of the Founding Fathers were free-thinkers and liberal idealists and were paying homage to the Institution that helped enable the formation of our great country and laid the foundation for its moral and social philosophies.

While your continued re-interpertation of Washington D.C.'s streets is entertaining it is disengenious to asert that there is a connection from them to all Secret Societies. I would be proud as a Mason to say that I am part of a Fraternity that helped plan the city streets of our capital but sadly it is not true. However, we as Masons can happily settle on the fact that our great fore-fathers helped plan the formation of our great nation and endeavored to instill their beliefs in a democratic society which still endures.



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Moses in the center with the ten commandments, to his right is Confucius to his left is Solon, again the blending of Paganism with Christianity. The new one world religion, but it's not new, it's a centuries old conspiracy.



You are going to have to do better than that guy,, their are threads all over this forum that have already taken this "opinion" of yours to the cleaners and back. Rather then ask us to provide what is already here as proof in various threads of this topic. Read them yourself. If you have anything new,, then maybe that will have a more enthusiastic response.

- Con
Free Mason



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 10:37 AM
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LDragonFire,

I have not caught up with this thread yet to see what has been said, so I'll hold comments for now, but I wanted to offer some food for thought.

Check out the Society of the Cincinnati; not so secret, but it is a neat little historical treasure that not many have heard of.

I just thought it might coincide with the general topic of the thread. I'm not sure about religious affiliations/requirements, but I can't imagine there were any. I'd feel comfortable guessing that it was not a "Christian" organization, and I'd wager it had more than a little to do with the state of the Union after the War for Independance from Britain.



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
Founding fathers and Freemasonry:

74 men were commissioned as Generals in the U.S. Continental Army from 1775 through 1783 33 (46%) were Freemasons
Generals

Including General George Washington


So we have George Washington and 46% of the Continental Army was freemasons. Hmmm isn’t That interesting!


Hmmmm. I'm not a Yank but I would think the Continental Army consisted of something more than 74 men. You see, while 46% of the generalship may have been Masons, it doesn't necessarily or logically flow from that that the same percentage applies across the board down to the lowliest private. In fact, I'd venture the percentages drop precipitously rather quickly. So really, all you've asserted with any proof is that there were 34 Masons in the Continental Army. BFD.



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


LDragon, interesting.

I am a little confused by the 'Washington DC' map you are using to illustrate your claims. For instance, isn't the portion of river labeled 'Eastern Branch' now called the Anacostia? (couldn't tell since I didn't see enough scale). And, in the original design by Pierre Charles L'Enfant, the boundaries of the entire District of Columbia were a perfect square. In fact, the lower southwest corner was located across the Potomac River, in what is now the Commonwealth of Virginia. Of course, the unpleasantness of 1861-1865 redrew some boundaries...

There are walking tours here in Virginia where you can see some ot the original historical markers that delineated the original edge of the 'District'.

Fascinating stuff...sometimes it seems a tiny hint of truth can sprout legs and take on a life of its own. I suspect there are shades of gray in everything.

Cheers.

[edit for PS...L'Enfant was, obviously, French. Anyone know IF he was a Mason?]

[edit on 28-12-2007 by weedwhacker]



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


Fitz, I am so happy you and I stayed awake in stats class. I am beginning to think some of the conspiracy theorists all fell asleep during the portion about generalizing from a unrepresentative sample.


[edit on 28-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Second post, risking off-topic but...

Was just struck by a thought, the embarassing debacle of a few years ago, renaming French Fries 'Freedom' fries!! What a crock. Betcha most Americans have no idea that their Capital was designed by a Frenchman!

OK...back to topic....



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 01:03 PM
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Can I just ask what the street layout of modern-day Washington DC has to do with the founding of the US?

The topic is interesting, I would like to see more focus on it than on tangents that have a plethora of other threads about them... Therefore I will not address the Washington DC tangent in this thread.

So, OP: Secret societies and the founding of the country. What connections have you found that are relevant and contemporary to the event?

I've given one example so far, and obviously there is Masonry, but there are sure to be others. What have you got?



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


No one doubts Washington was a Mason. In fact, I'm quite proud of it. It is an honor for the fraternity to be an affiliation of such a man, although I certainly understand why Washington was attracted to it. However - as you so often keep forgetting - masonry is an affiliation. It is a characteristic of a person who is a mason. The concepts are not exclusive to the fraternity - any learned person who seeks knowledge is often masonic in thought if not a formal member of the fraternity itself.

As Fitz has already pointed out, you have only proven a handful of generals were masonic. You used a percentage to hide the fact that the number of generals is low, and then proceeded to INVALIDLY generalize that percent to the whole population. So sorry, statistics don't work like that. By the way, did you know that 100% of the army was MALE? Why do we not have a conspiracy of males, hmmm?

Nope - not seeing a trend - and not seeing any valid evidence. I again would direct you to your own drawing. Look at the "pentagram" - AN ENTIRE ARM IS MISSING. THAT IS NOT A PENTAGRAM. Your little red line is TRACING A STREET THAT DOES NOT EXIST. As Augustus pointed out, if someone is going to have a cabal to make pretty street designs, why not - you know - draw the whole shape?

Yet another example of wanting a conspiracy so bad that you must turn to er, "creating" one.

I would also echo Augustus sentiment that I would be proud to say that my fraternity founded (as opposed to influenced) the country and put its mark over the capitol of the Nation. I'd love it if it were true. It would be very nice. Unfortunately, just because it would be nice if something we're true doesn't mean that it is. In this case, it is not true.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


That is an excellent point Fitz. The majority of the officers in the Continental Army were of English ancestry and trained by or with the British prior to the Revolution. A high percentage of British officers were Freemasons and they often held lodge meetings in the comanders tent and raised candidiates 'in the field' so to speak. This tradition continued during the Revolution and while there is a high proportion of Masons in the Continental Army the number would have dropped in the enlisted rank as these men were unfamiliar with Masonry in general.



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 03:23 PM
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I found this article and thought it was relevant. It is a well written and well researched paper, sources listed at bottom of page...


From: www.encyclopedia.com...

Not every Mason became a Revolutionary, and some became or remained Loyalists. Similarly, not every Anglican espoused Loyalism, nor did every Congregationalist fight for independence. A simple institutional explanation for political affiliation is not enough. Nevertheless, it is worth considering how an institutional association might have affected individuals. Freemasonry appealed to thousands of men in eighteenth-century America and thousands more in Britain. Those who became Masons did so for a variety of reasons, including status enhancement, social mobility, camaraderie, civic-mindedness, the satisfaction of mastering a ritual, or curiosity about the occult. Few Masons recorded why they chose to join. That Freemasonry played a part, however indirectly and inadvertently, in the coming of the American Revolution seems plausible. Among those who became Revolutionaries, Masonry could have heightened their fear of a conspiracy against their liberties. If the Revolutionary generation was concerned with the role of virtue in society, as recent historians have stressed, Masonry could have deepened that concern, as well as a sense of community responsibility and filial obligation among those who joined and led the Revolutionary movement. At the same time, Masonry could also have pushed others into Loyalism - men who had their sensibilities heightened by Masonic involvement but for their own reasons chose the other side of the political contest.

Freemasonry should be included as a variation on the ideological and institutional themes that have caught the attention of recent historians. Yet much remains unknown and unknowable. Historians are obliged to draw inferences from incomplete records, a difficult task made even more difficult when dealing with Freemasonry. Did those Masons who became Revolutionaries - Loyalists - do so because they were already inclined, before they entered the Brotherhood, to think and act a certain way? Or did their Masonic association accentuate tendencies that would otherwise have lain dormant? Historians can infer and they can surmise, but they may not be able to explain fully the influence of Freemasonry.


(emphasis mine)

We can sit here and speculate all day, but in the end, the facts are few and far between... the kind of records we have today simply were not kept then, not to mention the 200+ years that have passed in which time records (such as they were) could have been lost or destroyed.

We may never know what societies really had the most impact (I'd wager that it was Masonry), but I think it is safe to say that more than one or two had a fair amount of influence.




[edit on 12/28/07 by The Axeman]



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 05:34 PM
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Here is two very good DVD on who built the United State Of America.....!

*** Secret Mysteries of America’s Beginnings VOL.1 and 2 ***














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