The serpent was not a snake. It was a....

Dragon? Biblical quotes supporting this notion:

1. Revelation 12:7-9
7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

2. Revelation 12:3-4
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to earth. The dragon stood in front of the women who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

3. Revelation 12:13-13:1 The Woman and the Dragon
13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to earth, he pursued the women who had given birth to the male child. 14The women was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to a place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and a half time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the women and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the women by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the women and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. 1And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.

4. Revelation 13:2 The Beast out of the Sea
The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

5. Revelation 20:2 The Thousand Years
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

6. Revelation 13:4 The Beast out of the Sea
Men worshipped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshipped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

7. Revelation 13:11
Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.

8. not to mention the "leviathan" and "behemoth", in Job chapters 40-41.

9. (Job 41:19-21)
"Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."


10. Now the 'Serpent' Genesis portrays the serpent as possessing two rather amazing characteristics, it has the ability to walk on legs (hence it was later cast onto its belly), and it can carry on a conversation with humans. This serpent is also portrayed as dwelling in an earthly paradise with God, Adam and Eve. My research has concluded that the Sumerian Dragon-Serpent called "Nin-Gish-Zida" is what
lies behind the Genesis Myth.

11. Also chapter 14 of the greek version of Daniel: "23 Now in that placec there was a great dragon, which the Babylonians revered. 24The king said to Daniel, "You cannot deny that this is a living god; so worship him." 25Daniel said, "I worship the Lord my God, for he is the living God. 26But give me permission, O king, and I will kill the dragon without sword or club." The king said, "I give you permission."
27 Then Daniel took pitch, fat, and hair, and boiled them together and made cakes, which he fed to the dragon. The dragon ate them, and burst open. Then Daniel said, "See what you have been worshiping!"

I will supply many more supporting Biblical quotes as well, I will be taking a humanist approach to the discussion.

Dragons are snakes...all-grown-up!

Revalation and Genesis have nothing in common, they are not written by the same person(s), nor are they even part of the same books.

Genesis is ancient hebrew folklore, and Revelation is the ravings of a mad man living in a cave that nobody wanted anything to do with.

There was debate about including revelation in the Bible, but in the end it was the part that gets referenced the most because its oh so spooky.

Leviathan and behemoth are names used for giant sea creatures.
Giant squid or whales to be precise, and they still exist today.

You can just imagine that in biblical times there were probably a few prehistoric hold overs as well, just like the wacky creatures that get pulled out of the ocean or lakes today that haven't been witnessed by man in recorded history.

Serpent and dragon are interchangeable terms because apparently the bible people never saw any kind of lizard outside of a crocodile.

Here's a point to remember, for ages people believed unicorns might be possible, when in fact it was a fantasy created from the descriptions of crusaders who told of seeing Rhinos. Now compare, rhino and unicorn...pretty far removed from reality that fantasy is no?

These fantasy parts of the bible are not literal, the snake didn't talk, just like there is no Doctor Doolittle who talks to animals.

Why do people persist to believe pure fantasy?

Originally posted by Legalizer
Revalation and Genesis have nothing in common, they are not written by the same person(s), nor are they even part of the same books.

What do you mean ‘not part of the same books?’ They are both part of the SAME book – and have far more in common than you have noticed.

Genesis is ancient hebrew folklore, and Revelation is the ravings of a mad man living in a cave that nobody wanted anything to do with.

Oh, did you know John? Just because you don’t understand what he wrote doesn’t mean he is automatically a ‘mad-man.’

There was debate about including revelation in the Bible, but in the end it was the part that gets referenced the most because its oh so spooky.

Huh? It’s not spooky. Were you spooked? You seem to be repeating well-worn arguments used when understanding is lacking; somehow it might seem that the arguments are good substitutes for knowledge and therefore are age-old diversionary tactics.

Leviathan and behemoth are names used for giant sea creatures.
Giant squid or whales to be precise, and they still exist today.

Not quite.

From thefreedictionary.com:

be he moth (b-hmth, b-mth)
n.
1. Something enormous in size or power.
2. often Behemoth A huge animal, possibly the hippopotamus, described in the Bible.

le vi a than (l-v-thn)
n.
1. Something unusually large of its kind, especially a ship.
2. A very large animal, especially a whale.
3. A monstrous sea creature mentioned in the Bible.

You can just imagine that in biblical times there were probably a few prehistoric hold overs as well, just like the wacky creatures that get pulled out of the ocean or lakes today that haven't been witnessed by man in recorded history.

Wacky creatures? My, you sure are awfully judgmental! I can only assume that you must be a very learned scholar in many areas, including ancient history, linguistics, and zoology.

What ARE your credentials, BTW?

Serpent and dragon are interchangeable terms because apparently the bible people never saw any kind of lizard outside of a crocodile.

That’s nonsense. Do you really think no one ever saw a lizard?

The Hebrew word for ‘dragon’ –

H8577
tannîyn tannîym
(The second form used in Ezekiel 29:3); intensive from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, that is, sea serpent or jackal: - dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.

And for ‘lizard’ –

H3911
leṭâ'âh
From an unused root meaning to hide; a kind of lizard (from its covert habits): - lizard.

The Egyptians were more familiar with the crocodiles – in the Nile – what they called them, though, I have no idea.

Don ‘t forget – before mammals, reptiles ruled the planet. Surely the Hebrews would have run across a stray descendant now and then…here and there.

Here's a point to remember, for ages people believed unicorns might be possible, when in fact it was a fantasy created from the descriptions of crusaders who told of seeing Rhinos. Now compare, rhino and unicorn...pretty far removed from reality that fantasy is no?

I’m not sure what you consider ‘reality’ vs ‘fantasy.’ Not that it is relevant to the discussion.

Opinions are incomplete understandings.

These fantasy parts of the bible are not literal, the snake didn't talk, just like there is no Doctor Doolittle who talks to animals.

How do YOU know?

What if I said that I know differently? For certain and objectively? Not just to spout off but to dispute your assumptions?

Why do people persist to believe pure fantasy?

Why do people who believe OTHERWISE feel the need to participate in a discussion in which the subject matter evidently holds very little meaning, if any at all?

What has this accomplished for the discussion or its participants? Besides being rather discourteous to Agent Violet??

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

♥

metaphoricaly speaking.

the lord you speak of is a dictator,he does allow deviation from his irreverant doctrine.

lucifer as it is called had the courage to disobey his lord and so he was cast in to the fires of the underworld,with his name blackened and smeared.

we are in dire need of disobediance directed against our gods.

and,king cobras are intelligent enough to not fight each other to the death,they simply do a dance,the looser backs down.shame humans,the wonderous chosen ones dont have that foresight.

The Feathered Serpent

The feathered serpent is a symbol common to many religious traditions. A dragon, in essence, is nothing more than a winged serpent.



Let's look at the word used for dragon in Revelation 12:7:

G1404
δράκων
drakōn
drak'-own
Probably from an alternate form of δέρκομαι derkomai (to look); a fabulous kind of serpent (perhaps as supposed to fascinate): - dragon.

The most well known Aztec deity was in fact, a feathered serpent.

Quetzalcoatl: "precious feathered serpent" from quetzalli, “precious feather,” and coatl, “snake”

Read more: Quetzalcoatl

Hope this clears things up a bit.

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic

The old testament and the new testament (of which Revalation is part of) were not written by the same people, and they are written centuries apart. The old testament is the Hebrew history and law, first passed down by word of mouth (heard of the telephone game?), and the New testament was written over 500 years after Christ was already crucified, between AD 45 and AD 140.

The AD system didn't come into play until 525 years after the supposed birth of jesus, and even then there is no definition of the exact year of that birth, what exact calender system AD was based on and each account of the birth makes for more confusion.

John of revalation is not the same John of the gospel of John, modern scholars believe there were at least three of these guys.

John of Patmos sat around babbling about visions, the 100% certified sign of insanity. Any child can understand what he wrote, its a very visual fiction the man wrote. And it is 100% fiction. Not a single thing written in revelation is based on a fact, it is entirely based on a hallucination.

The word Tannin means "great sea monster" and its root Tan is now believed to mean the desert jackal.

The greek word Drakos refers to a giant sea creature, of which there are many and none of them are literal dragons in any sense of the word.

A behemoth, or hippo, lives in the water for most of every day ie, ...water monster, interchangeable with drakos, especially considering that the hippo is responsible for more human deaths in the wild than even lions or snakes.
It is very common for hippos to attack boats.

What do I mean by spooky? Christians commonly use the threats in revelation for reasons to go into their fold. They have done this for ages. Scare tactics, ie, spiritual terrorism.

Why do people like myself persist to be involved in discussions like this: Ignorance Denial.

Crendentials? Oh please. I can read, even nonsense works like the bible and have had great long talks with people who actually have degrees in theology and studied all this stuff more thoroughly.

It doesn't take credentials to equate hallucinations with insanity, just a little common sense and undiluted perception.

Originally posted by Legalizer
The old testament and the new testament (of which Revalation is part of) were not written by the same people, and they are written centuries apart. The old testament is the Hebrew history and law, first passed down by word of mouth (heard of the telephone game?), and the New testament was written over 500 years after Christ was already crucified, between AD 45 and AD 140.

The AD system didn't come into play until 525 years after the supposed birth of jesus, and even then there is no definition of the exact year of that birth, what exact calender system AD was based on and each account of the birth makes for more confusion.

Hello Legalizer,

The AD dating system, although devised 525 years after the estimated birth of Jesus, starts at the year that Jesus was supposedly born. Therefore, a gospel written in AD 45, was written 45 years after the supposed date of Jesus.

John of revalation is not the same John of the gospel of John, modern scholars believe there were at least three of these guys.

Some scholars do in fact believe that the writer of the Gospel of John also wrote Revelation. There is no consensus on the authorship of Revelation.

John of Patmos sat around babbling about visions, the 100% certified sign of insanity.

How do you know that John of Patmos sat around babbling visions?

Any child can understand what he wrote, its a very visual fiction the man wrote.

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic





[edit on 24/12/2007 by AkashicWanderer]

My take on this. The serpent was on the Earth prior to the creation of the Adam species of man. It's world was destroyed and left a desolate empty planet devoid of life and covered in water and clouds of darkness. They sided with satan in the first rebellion and so were destroyed for their part as a civilazation. The "serpent" is actually a "reptillian" who now reside on another planet but long to have this one back. Some of them, and probably one of the kind that talked with Adam and Eve are what we call the "greys", An intellectual "serpent". They have always interacted with this Earth from long ago and are making a comeback in our time as they are being driven from the heavens in the great war taking place now. They have hybrids known as the "nephilim" also known as the "bloodlines", who rule this Earth and are most of the world leaders, who are making this world into a one world government for the one to come who shall dominate.

UFO activity is evidence of their presence. They have vast transports carrying more and more of them daily from the stars to the Earth as each of their worlds fall to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Soon, they will not be able to keep it secret and should that happen, they will quickly sieze control of the world.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
The AD dating system, although devised 525 years after the estimated birth of Jesus, starts at the year that Jesus was supposedly born. Therefore, a gospel written in AD 45, was written 45 years after the supposed date of Jesus.

Yet there is no exact date on that birth, or exact date the calendar starts.
Its a guess, not a fact, and created 525 years after any of it occured without actual scientific investigation of the events as true or false. Its based on acceptance of fiction being reality.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
How do you know that John of Patmos sat around babbling visions?

Have you read Revelation? Everything that occurs in that book is based on his visons.
In the KJB, there is one reference to the word "vision" and 49 references to what he "saw" and 33 references to what he "heard". Audio Visual Hallucination.

There are a number of brain disorders, and bacteria that afflict the brain that can cause these.

We don't have John of Patmos' medical charts so we can not say for fact or not that this man didn't have one or more of these diseases.

Originally posted by Legalizer
Yet there is no exact date on that birth, or exact date the calendar starts.
Its a guess, not a fact, and created 525 years after any of it occured without actual scientific investigation of the events as true or false. Its based on acceptance of fiction being reality.

There is an exact date that the calendar starts, January 1 AD 1.

You are correct however on the fact that there is no exact date of Jesus' birth. Scholars and historians believe he was born between 18 BC and 2 BC. Not enough of a conflict to warrant your statements that the New Testament was written "500 years" after Jesus' death.

Have you read Revelation? Everything that occurs in that book is based on his visons.
In the KJB, there is one reference to the word "vision" and 49 references to what he "saw" and 33 references to what he "heard". Audio Visual Hallucination.

Yes I've read Revelation. Just because Revelation is based on his visions does not mean that he "sat around babbling visions".

The Bible is filled with people who have visions. Do you also label them as mentally ill?

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic

[edit on 24/12/2007 by AkashicWanderer]

It's just two more names that Satan (The Devil, Lucifer) is known by - the Serpent and the Dragon. Lots of names, same fallen angel.

Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
It's just two more names that Satan (The Devil, Lucifer) is known by - the Serpent and the Dragon. Lots of names, same fallen angel.

Hello Regina,

Where exactly does it say that Satan is known as Lucifer?

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic

I have always wondered if the demonization of the Dragon and the Serpent was not purposeful, and that the opposite is in fact true...

In Gnosticism, the serpent whom visited Eve was the embodiment of Sophia's Wisdom... and it was an effort to show the DemiUrge (Her son) he was wrong to assume he was the almighty one. It was also an effort to bestow upon mankind the possibility of Godly Wisdom.

There are a lot of aspects in the bible I must wonder about when it concerns serpents, dragons, and the Nephilim. Anything other than god-granted power seems to be demonized, and assumed to be demon-like because the power is not granted from the Demi-Urge.

Of course, I'm also of the belief that an entire race (The Nephilim) were really holy servants of the true Creator of the Universe, and that their era ended in catastrophe... they departed this place as the age of man began, partly because of man's jealous and childish nature, and partly because their spiritual leader saw a glimmer of potential in humanity. Before he died seperating the aethyric plane from the material, and securing that real demons could no more interfere with mankind directly than anything else from the spiritual and magickal planes.

There's a lot more to the story, but I always find it slightly creepy to me and very disconcerting when I read revelations or hear people quote it and feel that it sounds like a gross perversion of these ideas, seemingly in a purpose to foment fear and hatred when they RETURN.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Hello Regina,

Where exactly does it say that Satan is known as Lucifer?

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic

From Wikipedia: Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star" the planet Venus. [1] The word Lucifer was the translation of the Septuagint Greek heosphoros, ("dawn-bearer"; cf. Greek phosphoros, "light-bearer"; itself the translation of the Hebrew Helel ben Shahar[2], Son of Dawn), used by Jerome in the Vulgate, having mythologically the same meaning as Prometheus who brought fire to humanity.

The following is God speaking to Satan as well as the Babylonian King of Tyre. Note that he is called "Shining morning star". That is because he was originally known by the name Dawn, when he was with the Cherubic Order of Holy Angels before his fall. When he fell, he was stripped of his Holy Angelic name.

Isaiah 14:12-15 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Shining morning star,
how you have fallen from the heavens!
You destroyer of nations,
you have been cut down to the ground.

13 You said to yourself:
"I will ascend to the heavens;
I will set up my throne
above the stars of God.
I will sit on the mount of the [gods'] assembly,
in the remotest parts of the North.

14 I will ascend above the highest clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you will be brought down to Sheol
into the deepest regions of the Pit.

snakes are not always bad in the bible,

Moses made a brass sepent as instructed by god, all who looked upon the serpent were healed. The serpent has long been associated with medical and healing properties, as a symbol of wisdom and knowledge.

We cannot have it both ways, if god instructed moses to build a serpent of brass to heal, then the serpent cannot always be considered a bad omen or a symbol of evil.

More likely it is the organized church's attempt to stamp out the cults that existed in the time of the bible and the guild of midwives, whose symbol is known to most now as that of the AMA, the twin snakes intertwined around the staff.

The midwives guild was the most powerful Union in Europe for a thousand years, until it was finally eliminated thru witch burnings and inquisitions. That their symbol was translated into english as evil and wrong coincided with organized eradication by European interests, mainly the for profit university system and the for profit medical industry that began to arise at the same time.

reply to post by Hallberg Rassy


just to clarify, I have always interpreted Moses' brass serpent as a Staff of Aesculapius (one snake around a staff) as opposed to the Caduceus which has two snakes intertwined around a staff.

Citing the history of the caduceus, some physicians are critical of the symbol, because Hermes also happens to be the god that leads the dead to the underworld and is not only associated with wealth and commerce, but happens to be the patron of thieves (he is a classic trickster figure in Greek myths). It only makes sense that doctors wouldn't want to be associated with trickery, death, and the accumulation of wealth! Medical purists suggest we should go back to the staff of Aesculapius, which is depicted as a single serpent coiled around a cypress branch.

Wikipedia Caduceus

more Caduceus info

Staff of Aesculapius

Aesculapian Staff vs. Caduceus

[edit on 12.25.07 by toreishi]

reply to post by agent violet


to say that the serpent was not a snake makes no sense ? revelation 12:9 says that the enemy of G-D and humans is likend to has the proclivities of :a dragon/a serpent/the devil/and satan/and a thrown down angel----it has all the qualities/proclivities of the physical creatures yet it itself was a cherub angel origionally a friend of both gabriel and michael --angels of equal rank at the top of the angelic powers--till its vanity overpowered its common sense and it decided to overthrow its Creators and wage war to become a G-D (isaiah 14:13-32)it is a loser just like the rebellious angels that followed it and just like humans that prefer to worship the wrong god who this one is--the present god of this world(matthew 4 /luke 4/2corinthians4:4)

yahn goodey, uh what?

it makes sense to me.
and i didnt see your quote say otherwise, necessarily. please point out in your quote where it says that "the serpent is a snake"...

reply to agent violet--the english word snake is not found in the king james version of the bible--TRUE--thank the translators for not a perfect translation--serpent( in hebrew) most of time is nachash--dragon is tanniyn--lizard is letaah---but when we get to the new covenant the greek ophis translates into the english language either as a snake/a serpent /dragon or satan.ophis/drakon/aspis/ekron/aspidon/basilikos/kerastes---all greek words that can mean serpents,snakes,dragons.kittels theological dictionary of the new covenant explains the greek .Messiah uses the greek word ophis in reference to satan in the following--mat.10:16/mat.23:33/mark16:18/luke 10:19/revelation 9:19.the book of revelation was given thru His angel to His apostle john