100% Flawless Proof of God

Originally posted by StandFirm
First let me start off by sayin that I've always believed in God and hopefully this will open some eyes and change some hearts. It's been a long time comin but I've finally got enough evidence to make some people possibly reconsider atheism.
"The bible was inscribed over a period of 2,000 years in times of war and in days of peace. It was written by kings, fishermen, beggers, sheppards, merchants, and carpenters. The marvel is that a work of art so perfectly coheisive could have been structured by such a diverse crowd."

And another arguement that noone can ever disprove is

"If God doesn't exist, then who's bowling when it thunders?"

There was far too much time in which the texts could have been altered before being assembled into the bible, and many of the people who were part of the group who did that assembly likely had self-serving motives (political, money, etc.) for changing the texts as well. The chance that the texts were untouched between composition and addition to the bible is minuscule in my opinion. While I cannot prove anything, when one looks at the maneuvering being done by the Roman Empire as a means to assimilate Pagan religions and quell uprisings, it would make perfect sense for the Romans to alter the biblical texts in order to further their agenda.

As far as thunder goes, I hope you're joking. If not, I suggest a quick study into the physics of lightning.

reply to post by Dazzler22


Dazzler, you summed up my sentiments precisely... People should leave well enough alone.

Solorskye I, like you , usually don't post in this type of thread. It's like argueing with a fence post. We all have a seemingly closed mind when it comes to our religious beliefs.

But I will say in defense of the Bible, which I use as a guide for daily living, it is much like a receipe book. If I want to make a chopcolate cake I might look in several different books and find a receipe for chocolate cake. None of the receipes are exactly alike. But the final product of each recepie is a chocolate cake.

As to proof of there being God. When a human can create, not duplicate, an oak tree then I will listen to other theories of our creation and creator.

Peace To All my Atheist and Christain Friends. I love you equally.

Dizzie

Originally posted by StandFirm
100% Flawless Proof of God

It is for those within. For those without it's something different entirely.

One man sees a diamond, another may see a lump of coal.

What about the Hindu Vedas, written before even the Old Testament was written?

en.wikipedia.org...


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Okay, higher power, okay, but Christianity? How come when ever I see a thread that says "100% proof in God" it's always Christianity?!

What kind of religion believes that me, Gandhi, the Dalai Llama, Albert Einstein, Hitler, most of his victims, and numerous other people are all getting the same punishment when they die/are getting the same punishment (for the ones already dead)?

How come all cultures have a notion of God? It's way beyond instinct. Scientists have concluded we are hardwired to look for God; its biological.

reply to post by Icon_xof


1) How many generations were there between Abraham to David?
I counted fourteen in both cases. I'll list the first three letters of each name to keep it from being too cumbersome to read: Abraham, Isa, Jac, Jud, Per, Hez, Ram, Amm, Nah, Sal, Boa, Obe, Jes, and David. That's fourteen people, thus fourteen generations.

2) Is Paul lying?
Just because Jesus wasn't quoted as saying this particular line, doesn't mean He never said it. We would have to assume every single thing He ever said was recorded. There are a few logical explanations for this. Some examples are it was recorded but not in a work that survived to our time, Paul was reminding them as to what Jesus said which points to the possibility they were already familiar with the quote, etc.

3) When did the leper become not a leper?
I looked at the context and nothing really talks about the chronological order for certain. We don't know the time gaps in between. Let me know if I'm missing something because nothing shout out to me as being a contradiction.

4) Who approached Jesus?
His answer is a little confusing to me but this is what I found concerning this question: Link.

Was she dead or just dying?
Both! Luke gives the longer version of the events in more detail (as was his style as a historian) and explains when Jairus first arrived his daughter was dying but his servants came while he was waiting for Jesus and told him not to bother and that his daughter had died. Matthew summarizes the events (something he often did for the sake of oral evangelism) by saying she was already dead.

I'll stop there before this gets tedious. Years ago I was presented with Bible contradictions which made me question my beliefs. After getting no help from my pastor when I was doubting my faith, I took it upon myself to find solutions. Here is a link to my site where I post the answers (HERE). It's not an exhaustive analysis but I did try to touch on the main categories of Biblical conflicts.

If you still want me to finish the list of contradictions in your previous reply I'll be happy to do so but I know most people who give me contradictions to answer don't actually want the answers so I typically don't spend too much time on the subject anymore like I used to by breaking out my Hebrew and Greek lexicons and going "all out." lol

If the bible was written as fodder for the masses, a way of controlling people with religion you would think that the geniuses that wrote it would have made more opportunities during the composition to inundate it with ways to keep us in their slavery. Yet with the exception of being told to pay our taxes, the bible's message is one of freedom from the constraints of mankinds restraints and chains.
No government would benefit from passages like

John 17 :14 The world has hated them. This is because they are not part of the world any more than I am. 15 I do not pray that you will take them out of the world. I pray that you will keep them safe from the evil one.

16 "They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to it.

and what about the most damaging

Luke 4:5-7: The devil led him up to a high mountain and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and power, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish. So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

No, the bible is an honest communication of God to mankind the message is live among the people of this world yet take no part in anything that would contradict Gods laws.

You know, this post reminds me of all those day time talk shows like Montel Williams. Making outrageous claims like "something you'll have to see to believe" or "a one hour episode that will change your life".

What's with these outrageous 'Proof of God' threads lately? It's funny, because NO ONE, not even Montel, can live up to the hype.

reply to post by StandFirm


flawless proof in less than a paragraph

you cannot see, taste, hear, touch faith

it is by faith alone what you believe

Oops. didn't see all the other comments addressed to me so I'll use this comment as a mass reply. Please excuse my laziness!

Bible Contradictions

To everyone providing me with Bible contradictions: Again, I answer dozens of them in this multi sectioned article.

"Advanced scientific foreknowledge? Please elaborate."

There has literally been books upon books upon books written about this so it would take me days to rehash what all I've learned. A brief explanation would be the scientific benefit behind the dietary laws, the timing of circumcision, the hydrological cycle, advanced geometry, etc. I don't have time to go into detail but if you want some book recommendations I'd be happy to help.

Of course this doesn't prove God (nothing does except if He would roll back the sky and say Hello! :p) but it is interesting food for thought and a part of the equation why I believe in God.

The timing of Jesus' birth concerning historical censuses and the likes

When I was still a skeptic I used this conflict as a major ah ha! argument against Christianity. Josh McDowell answers this question in depth in his book The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict although it is a pretty technical and long winded answer. It doesn't conclusively prove the Bible but his answer did provide a good explanation to this predicament by reviewing the timing of the multiple censuses, tax periods, and kingly reigns.

reply to post by StandFirm


the bible is only a collection of fables myths, and used by the clergy to control the population, but through time a beleif in a god like person took hold and ever since there has been nothing but bloodshed and terror, what kind of god would alooow this to happen, suck it up guys you are born then a short time later you die, it's the bit in the middle that counts, immortality only comes when you do something uforgetable, for instance hitler this man will never be forgoten, the mummies of egypt. so at the end of the day there is no heaven no hell and only oblivion, so go do something special or just try and survive like everybody else. the bible is simple it plays on poeples fear and outlaws naturalhuman behaviour, we will never change until we knock religion on the head and accept the cold hard truth

reply to post by StandFirm


the bible is only a collection of fables myths, and used by the clergy to control the population, but through time a beleif in a god like person took hold and ever since there has been nothing but bloodshed and terror, what kind of god would alooow this to happen, suck it up guys you are born then a short time later you die, it's the bit in the middle that counts, immortality only comes when you do something uforgetable, for instance hitler this man will never be forgoten, the mummies of egypt. so at the end of the day there is no heaven no hell and only oblivion, so go do something special or just try and survive like everybody else. the bible is simple it plays on poeples fear and outlaws naturalhuman behaviour, we will never change until we knock religion on the head and accept the cold hard truth

Originally posted by the b rain
If the bible was written as fodder for the masses, a way of controlling people with religion you would think that the geniuses that wrote it would have made more opportunities during the composition to inundate it with ways to keep us in their slavery. Yet with the exception of being told to pay our taxes, the bible's message is one of freedom from the constraints of mankinds restraints and chains.

I disagree. In very basic terms the bible is a handbook for a religion in which you must either believe what it says or you will go to hell. Where is the freedom in that? The bible isn't "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth", it is supposedly the "word of God" which includes the laws God supposedly laid down for humans to follow. So rather than obeying the laws of men (which the bible states should be followed anyway), now you have to obey the supposed laws from God. If anything a person is even more tied down by "restraints and chains" than without the burden of this religion.

reply to post by StandFirm


Sorry ATS friend, if "faith" and the bible are your proof of a god then I have proof that Santa Claus is real too. As a child I always received gifts under the tree from him and look at all the books written about him.

You know, I never understood the accusation that the Bible is only a means to enslave man by the fear of Hell.

The teaching of Hell makes up only a small fraction of the Bible. The great majority of it talks about God's power, love, providence, redemption, and glory. God was not trying to draw us to Him through fear. He was trying to draw us to Him through the good things and explaining to us the plan of redemption.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Hell is also mentioned. It was not meant to be a ploy of fear that many "fire and brimstone" preachers like to push but instead it is there to let the readers know what the alternative is. It's not meant to scare into submission. If you notice, most of the mentions of hell are stated in a matter-of-fact way in the Bible. It is there simply as a spiritual fact and very little focus is given to it when one considers the entire Bible.

reply to post by Icon_xof

Originally posted by Icon_xof
Where's this proof you speak of? All you offered was your opinion that the bible is a miracle. There is no proof of god and there never will be unless he/she/it comes down and makes it know in person. And please dont try and use the complexity of existence to argue the existence of god. Just because we dont understand it yet doesnt mean that god did it, thats the theist cop-out of the ages.

I'd like to first disclaimer that my affiliation in terms of religion will remain unmentioned. My beliefs are mine, however, in an effort to better the understanding of religion and to counteract the misconceptions and facts misconstrued, I will correct your fallacies.

First, what is consistently irritating to myself is the concept of proving Christianity. It is the largest antithesis to the Christian faith, for proof denies faith, and without faith, Christianity is nothing.

Second, your demanding of evidence is equally irritating; Far too many events take place that we have, at best, vague comprehension of. Still, as the above answers, you couldn't possibly ever expect to receive evidence for Christianity for its counter-purpose to Christianity

Originally posted by Icon_xof
And as for the bible being cohesive, or even a respectably written text, the notion is just ridiculous. There are tons of flaws and contradictions:

You who proclaim yourself wise because you are some kind of enlightened student of existential law? You need to reconsider the information given to you; You are clearly no fool, however, you are treading into foreign territory.

(Continued)



[edit on 13-12-2007 by Zizek]

[edit on 13-12-2007 by Zizek]

The question is: Does it matter if there is 100% proof for God or not?
Does it make a difference either way?

If God is real, then nothing will change it. (no amount of disbelief, etc.)

What seems to be the root is many Christians struggling with an inner feeling that God isnt participating in life, so they actually question the existence of God.

In Judaism God is 'unknowable' - point is, with our finite minds, who are we to even grasp what a 'God' is? Like Einstein who wanted to know the mind of God, there are many who would like to know it also. I for one want to know it and experience it to its fullness.

But typically we get stuck at the realm of debate of what God is or isnt, as if either way can or cannot be be proven to fit our idea of God.

God, whatever it is or isnt, by far, is definitely not what we 'think' God is.
God is outside the boundry of the mind - its through experience that you 'know God' in the 'stillness of space'.

A good way to go about 'intellectually' knowing God, would be through studying and contemplating quantum mechanics, as well as researching and finding the commonalities of each religion. This can be both stimulating and rewarding vs. a God that we make in the image of man. (putting God in a box.)

peace

- dAlen

Originally posted by AshleyD
You know, I never understood the accusation that the Bible is only a means to enslave man by the fear of Hell.

The teaching of Hell makes up only a small fraction of the Bible.

Well, Im not so sure that the intent of people saying this is exactly that.
I think the heart of the matter is that the Bible is being misused for those purposes, in general, today. - whether on purpose or pure ignorance (or both)

Does not negate that the Bible has a lot of great pointers to be found, but this kind of actions does tend to try to cover and hide the truth within.

peace

dAlen

Man, the perfect channel for your god to spread his word? I don't think so.
If god existed, that means he made a choice. How can a creator choose? Can a creator pick favourites? Can a creator give himself a son? A son which is only proved by a book written by another man. A Book which only serves to control.

More wars have been fought over religion than anything. The colour of a persons skin, the gods they believe in, the way they live their lives and the way they are controlled by their religion always seems to dictate that they are right and everyone else is wrong. And yet, people think their god will forgive them. Forgive their sins. I'll tell you something, if he does exist, he views you a parasite. A parasite that only cares about itself and destroying everything and everyone around it. A parasite that bends his "book" to use to it's own advantage. A parasite that uses his name to justify everything and never have to take responsibility for the here and now....afterall, you're going to heaven right?

If it is 100% proof, I'd be praying that I don't meet my god if I were you.



[edit on 13-12-2007 by timb3r]