100% Flawless Proof of God

When are people going to stop trying to prove each other wrong and just agree to disagree. Posting something like the original thread is a useless cry for change that is hardly going to influence anyone.

The Biblical god is just human perception trying to grasp the concept of that which is infinite. What makes you believe that humans with their puny minds can even begin to understand what god really is?

The bible smacks labels on him like hes just some big person sitting down observing everything nodding or shaking his head. What makes you believe that god in his infinite being would waste his time watching you make love to someone of the same sex to write it down as a "Sin"... Please, save the bologna for the sandwich.

God does not act, think, look like humans do. Sorry. It just boggles my mind to think people still believe this crap. It isnt spiteful. It doesnt punish. Wake up and just live the life he created for you! Above all else im sure he just wants everyone to shut up and praise his handiwork and be happy.

Just my 2 cents

Originally posted by AshleyD

"Advanced scientific foreknowledge? Please elaborate."

There has literally been books upon books upon books written about this so it would take me days to rehash what all I've learned. A brief explanation would be the scientific benefit behind the dietary laws, the timing of circumcision, the hydrological cycle, advanced geometry, etc. I don't have time to go into detail but if you want some book recommendations I'd be happy to help.

Of course this doesn't prove God (nothing does except if He would roll back the sky and say Hello! :p) but it is interesting food for thought and a part of the equation why I believe in God.

How does having these things written about in the bible have any significance?

reply to post by timb3r

More wars have been fought over religion than anything.

Can you please expand on this? I have heard this argument mimicked over and over again without anything to back it up.

WWI: Started over an assassination
WWII: Land expansion and ethnic cleansing
Napoleonic Wars: Revolutionary, empire growth, power.
The American Revolutionary War: Freedom from the British Empire
The French Revolution: Rights for the common people and to abolish the monarchy and aristocracy.
Russian Revoutions (Both): Essentially the same as the French Revolution
Vietnam "War": Supposedly to fight the spread of communism.
Korean War: Civil War
American Civil War: Concerned the rights of the state
Bosnia: Independence, arms competition, ethnic
Iraqi War: Who knows. Some say oil, some say to displace a tyrant, some say as retribution for 9/11. I'm making no assumptions except to say Bush never said "Let's go invade Iraq so they will have Christianity."

I could go on and on. It seems most wars have been fought over power, land and empire expansion, economics, natural resources, etc.

I can only think of a couple of wars that were started due to religion.

So, can you please provide me with this supposed list of "the majority" of wars that have started because of religion? I can maybe think of the Crusades (if you want to consider it an actual war) and some of the stuff between Israel and Arab nations but nothing else really comes to mind... especially enough to make it be "the majority of wars."

Many secularists believe the mess with Israel and its Arab enemies is over land rights and not wholly religion. So... please list all these wars and make sure they constitute the majority of recorded wars in history.

reply to post by John_Q_Llama

How does having these things written about in the bible have any significance?

As I stated, scientific foreknowledge alone wouldn't be enough to convince me of the Bible's divine nature but it is part of the whole equation I took into consideration.

Lots of orders to bathe regularly, wash hands before eating, burn down buildings with mold, purify metals in fires but destroy the wood and never reuse it, etc. This shows an advanced knowledge of germs that not even the advanced Egyptians or Babylonians were aware of.

And that is just one example. They knew things about medicine, geometry, science, health, microbes, geology, and everything else it would take me a book to explain.

Again, is this PROOF? No. Could this have other explanations? Of course. I'll keep an open mind about that. But at the same time, when I consider the other aspects (prophecy, science, archeology, eye witness testimony (if you can accept some of the NT books were written by Jesus' own apostles), foreknowledge, theological logic than blends together perfectly, etc. I don't know how it could be missed. It's the whole- not one part alone.

[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

I find your proof of the existence of God lacking, but nice try. I can completely discredit the bible with only one word: Dinosaurs.

Oh wait, let me guess, they were placed here by Satan to makes us question the bible, or wait, maybe they were to big to fit on the ark and thus were left to drown, or no wait, maybe the world of the bible is a different world than when the dinosaurs lived.

The fact the bible makes no mention of the dinosaurs further proves it is not the word of God. don't you think he would be proud of such a big animal.

I have heard holy rollers tell me the top three explanations and each one is more ridiculous than the last.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by timb3r

 

More wars have been fought over religion than anything.

Can you please expand on this? I have heard this argument mimicked over and over again without anything to back it up.


I can only think of a couple of wars that were started due to religion.

So, can you please provide me with this supposed list of "the majority" of wars that have started because of religion?

Lets see...

The French Wars of Religion:
The First War (1562-1563)
The Second War (1567-1568)
The Third War (1568-1570)
The St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (1572)
The Fourth War (1572-1573)
The Fifth War (1576)
The Sixth War (1577)
The Seventh War (1580)
The War of the Three Henries (1584-1589)
The Wars of the League (1589-1598)


The Thirty Years War, 1618-1648
WWII - Hitler was born and bred a Catholic, he grew up in a religion and in a culture that was anti-semitic. He was motivated by a desire to purge the earth of the evil Jews and set out to 'cleanse' the world of Jews in his 'final solution'
Ireland - Since long before I was a boy; though I give you it was also to do with colonialism
Serbia/Croatia - Catholic Croats and Orthodox Christian Serbs slaughtered each other over religion while both slaughtered the Bosnian Muslims over religion.
Europe - Crusades and Inquisitions - You knew that one was coming right?

The Christian church is not a theocratic nation (Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; otherwise, my servants would fight")

So I guess it's all ok right?

Anyway, now you've got that off your chest and I'm guessing you won't let it lie; lets look at the good religion has done for the world shall we?

Name me 10 major events in earths factually recorded history (sorry, Bible doesn't count here!), in which religion has benefited mankind.






[edit on 13-12-2007 by timb3r]

reply to post by AshleyD


Okay, good, we can agree that nothing is proved by having these things written about in the bible. I will say that it does reflect positively on the authors of the texts in that they were able to accurately document the customs and knowledge of the time.

But at the same time I cannot understand how such information in the bible in any way can indicate one way or the other the existence of god. I'm not talking about proof. I mean, how does it sway someone to believe? How did it provide you with some notion that God is real? I'm not questioning you. I'm simply curious about your thoughts on the subject.

Personally I would be surprised if this type of stuff wasn't in the bible. As it is a historical document, it should accurately reflect life at that time. But that's it. Customs, knowledge, science, technology, and all of that were not spontaneously known by people of biblical times because God told it to them. This stuff was learned over generations, built upon as more and more knowledge was accumulated (your example of the germs is perfect!), and refined to improve the quality of life.

reply to post by StandFirm


You have a made very poor attemtp to prove GOD exist

reply to post by The Oak


Some believe dinosaurs are mentioned in the book of Job (the oldest book of the Bible). The jury is still out on my end but it does appear he is talking about animals of a very great size (massive beasts with a tail like the cedar tree, enormous leviathans which possibly allude to great prehistoric sea beasts, etc.).

Not 100% sure of this view but it is food for thought.

reply to post by StandFirm



that arguement doesn't make sense so it can't be argued against. What does it even mean? Why would anybody be bowling when it thunders?

reply to post by timb3r


Keep it coming. There have been 15,000 wars in recorded human history. You've got a long way to go! I need at least 7,501 examples before you hit "the majority."

Seriously though, some of the wars you mentioned did not have religion as the central cause- it only exacerbated existing tensions.

Most wars have been fought over power, territory, resources, and greed. Religion has certainly been part of the equation but only a fraction are true religious wars.

[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

reply to post by timb3r

Name me 10 major events in earths factually recorded history (sorry, Bible doesn't count here!), in which religion has benefited mankind.

Oops. I missed that quote.

Let's see:

Hospitals
Colleges and Universities
Missions
The Salvation Army
Goodwill
Several Soup Kitchens and Homeless shelters
Ministry to third world countries
Widow's aid
Christian based medical research facilities
Countless church and Christian funded charity organizations
Christians who helped conceal Jews during WWII (costing many their lives)
Orphanages



[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by timb3r

 

Name me 10 major events in earths factually recorded history (sorry, Bible doesn't count here!), in which religion has benefited mankind.

Oops. I missed that quote.

Let's see:

Hospitals
Colleges and Universities
Missions
The Salvation Army
Goodwill
Several Soup Kitchens and Homeless shelters
Ministry to third world countries
Widow's aid
Christian based medical research facilities
Countless church and Christian funded charity organizations
Christians who helped conceal Jews during WWII (costing many their lives)
Orphanages
[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

Charity doesn't count. I want events and all of these are born of charity.

A (admittedly bad) example would be: 400 blind people were cured of their blindness because they prayed in a church.

See, annoying isn't it? Childish too. But this is how religion treats the non-believers though. "Oh you don't believe in god, so you'll burn in hell"; "you don't believe in god, so I'll pray for you" etc.

The Bible and religion is, in my humble opinion, a scapegoat for mankind.

Originally posted by StandFirm
he marvel is that a work of art so perfectly coheisive could have been structured by such a diverse crowd."

uhhhh perfectly cohesive? are we talking about the bible here??

p.s. "proof" of god undermines the entire concept of faith, so I would advise against it, since it's all in vain anyways at best - at worst, blasphemy.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by scientist]

reply to post by John_Q_Llama


I'll give you some more specific answers as to why I believe on top of the things I mentioned. For someone really wanting to know why, I highly, highly suggest looking into the study of Christian apologetics. It is basically the study of providing evidence (not proof) of the Christian faith. Like I said, the only way for us to know in this era is to either have God poke His head out of the sky and wave hello or to die and see Him for ourself. But here are my two favorite reasons why I believe.

1) Biblical prophecy.

Biblical prophecy is extremely specific. It is not some Nostradamus-like vague thing that can fit just about anything and it's also not Nostradamus -like in that there are so many that it is probable they will eventually happen.

The return of Israel as a sovereign state was prophesied to the year (1948) and was foretold to be reborn in one day (May 14th). See: HERE. The death of Jesus prophesied to the year (See: HERE). Daniel specifically describing the rise of one world governments and the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes (See: HERE and HERE). Daniel's prophecies were so detailed and fulfilled so specifically that the only form of recourse skeptics have is to claim the book of Daniel was actually written after the events occurred (an impossibility as archeology and history has proven). Miscellaneous prophecies fulfilled (there are hundreds) and things that are taking place in our time that I can see with my own eyes. This is my favorite part because I can be a first hand witnesses.

To know what I am talking about concerning what is currently being fulfilled, I strongly suggest reading the book "Are We Living In the End Times" by Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins. All the prophecies are too numerous to name here (which is why it took an entire book to list them!). You can probably get a used copy at Amazon.com for a couple of dollars or check your local library.

The Bible describes in detail what would be happening in the end times in terms of government, economy, Israel, international hostility, sociology and society, etc. Really, really cool stuff.

I'm left to logic which tells me only a Supreme being could know such things with such accuracy- something even world renowned psychics and seers couldn't pull off.

2) The Bible Code

Don't roll your eyes just yet. I'm not talking about the matrices like "Hitler, World War II, The Jews will be persecuted" etc. The Hebrew language is too ambiguous to me and the Bible is large and it makes sense such things would be found so I remain skeptical. I've heard the skeptical explanations for the Bible code and Theomatics (the Bible Code's NT numerical counterpart) and have to say I think all of their criticisms of such techniques are valid. The one thing that leaves me stumped is the following:

In the Torah (the first give books of the Bible), Every 49 or 50 letters (I can't remember which) in Genesis and Exodus spells out Torah, Leviticus spells out Yahweh, and then Numbers and Deuteronomy spell out Torah backwards. In essence, it is making somewhat of a triangle with Torah pointing to God. I didn't take anyone's word for it so I decided to look it up myself and indeed exactly that happened.

It would take too much faith for me to think a man was able to do such things in the Bible and then never claim it was proof of Divine authority when presenting it to the people for the first time.

The Bible has been revised, edited, and re-written throughout the ages, and is hardly proof of anything. A good portion of it was passed down as oral tradition long before it ever reached any type of parchment, leaving it open for even more alteration. If you want proof of any of this, spend some time researching or watch the History channel now and then.

The Bible is purposely written with spooky language, and uses fear to get the average reader to believe. It is another method of control. Although I cannot disagree with the necessity to have some guidelines for every day ethics and morality I'm not going to look to an absentee father-figure for those guidelines.

It also has borrowed many themes and stories from the "pagan" world, for example the certain aspects of the story of Baldur of the Viking tradition bears many similarities to the story of Jesus. There are many other examples from religions and folklore around the world, but again, all that is required is a little research to figure that out.

Pascual stated that you have nothing to lose by believing in god because if you wrong nothing happens to you, you simply cease to exist. If you don't believe and your wrong you go to hell. Though I respect Pascual as an intellectual, I disagree with this thinking. I think that it is more logical to find your own way in life. You can spend your entire life believing in these dullard superstitions but in the end you'll be just as miserable as everyone else.

I leave you all with a bit of wisdom from Oswald T. Pratt:

"Turn to the Bible for inspiration if you want, because it's supposed to be the divinely inspired word of God. But it strikes me as odd that Shakespeare, a mere mortal, was so much better, in terms of basic writing skill."

And my personal Favorite:

"Here's what happens when you die: The blood stops flowing to your brain, and you have a few, last flickering thoughts, then you stop thinking altogether. The synapses in your brain stop firing, and your personality and thoughts cease to exist. Then your body decays. Grubs and boll weevils burrow into your head. Worms crawl in and out of your eye sockets. Maggots feed on your brain. Oh, wait. I'm getting it all wrong. Actually, you go to a country club-type place and hang out with Jesus, Mark Twain, and all your long lost relatives. What was I thinking?"

Nice quotes, Osiris.

Here's one of my favorites:

"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says. He is always convinced that it says what he means."

George Bernard Shaw

reply to post by John_Q_Llama


I exceeded my character limit in the last comment so here is part II.

3) Something I like to call the Ah ha! moments.

Look at the use of numbers throughout the Bible and their significance. Like the symbolism of 6, 7, 10, 12, etc. These same numbers pop up all over the Bible... literally in almost every book. It would take a book to explain it all here but every number has special spiritual significance and I encourage you to do your own research into it. We're talking some pretty deep stuff.

I might be able to believe one man was smart enough (or a genius) to use such a structure but the Bible was written by dozens of different authors over centuries. My puny skeptic human mind cannot believe all these mortal men of all ages and walks of life used these symbolisms without knowing their significance. No, I truly believe this is something God did.

Other things will require looking into the symbolism of the feasts, temple structure, etc. This is something you will have to look into because I honestly don't have the time to sit here and go into the massive detail it requires.

On a closing note, I need to admit I am a die hard skeptic and I only accept things I can confirm myself.

I don't give a hoot about Bible codes in general, Theomatics, Virgin Mary apparitions (who I don't consider divine for a single moment), near death experiences, preachers who claim to have healing ministries, and all sorts of other things many Christians accept uncritically as evidence of their faith. I only pay attention to what I can confirm, place my hands on, and things that I cannot find any human explanation for.

[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
The death of Jesus prophesied to the year (See: HERE).

but weren't the gospels (everything about jesus) written after his supposed death? (which still hasn't been proven either)?

Daniel's prophecies were so detailed and fulfilled so specifically that the only form of recourse skeptics have is to claim the book of Daniel was actually written after the events occurred (an impossibility as archeology and history has proven).

source? from what I understand, again, ALL the gospels were written after jesus was already dead, and even then, there are no specific dates. It's all relative. I mean, this is the same book that says the earth is only 10,000 years old, right?

Miscellaneous prophecies fulfilled (there are hundreds) and things that are taking place in our time that I can see with my own eyes. All the prophecies are too numerous to name here (which is why it took an entire book to list them!).

since there are so many ("too numerous to name") why not list just a few, like 3 of the best examples you can find.

I'm left to logic which tells me only a Supreme being could know such things with such accuracy- something even world renowned psychics and seers couldn't pull off.

right, logic. but I would call that bad logic.

In the Torah (the first give books of the Bible), Every 49 or 50 letters (I can't remember which) in Genesis and Exodus spells out Torah, Leviticus spells out Yahweh, and then Numbers and Deuteronomy spell out Torah backwards.

ok, but that's the torah, not the bible. so what? That seems to take away from your point... if there was one?

When I read the christian bible, which I have done several times, I am GLAD I am NOT a christian! That is not to say I don't believe in a God/Creator, I do.

If I was to believe that GOD commited the acts related in the christian bible, then I would have to believe that God is VERY VERY cruel. As my God isn't cruel but loving to all things, then I cannot in all conscience believe the christian bible.

If you believe the christian bible, then you believe that God ordered the massacre of countless men, women and children.

I sometimes wonder if so-called christians have ever read the bible and actually thought about what they were reading.

I have looked deeply at many religions looking for I don't know what. I have corresponded with religious leaders of many denominations. None of them convinced me that their religion was true and divinely inspired. All books are written by man and so fallible. The bible has no authority (we don't know who wrote the books of the bible). No matter what anyone tells you, the bible is jam packed with contradictions and, while certain people try to argue that point, they are grasping at straws (the contradictions are self evident.

Christians say that the bible was divinely inspired, that the words were a revelation. Well a revelation can only be made to one person by definition. When that "revelation" is passed on, it becomes just one mans word, and beyond that hearsay. Well, I can't put my trust in hearsay.

In my opinion, if God were to try and communicate his message to man, He wouldn't use a book of words that is open to interpretation, contamination, mistranslation etc etc. No, He would use his creation to inform man, and that is what He has done. Just look around you, look at creation and what do you see and think. What you see in nature is wonderful and can only be the creation of a loving God. He has given us all the means to live a good life with all the abundance of nature. Everything that man has learned is through nature, including science. That is Gods gift to man and that is where we should look for God, not in a book of words.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by joben]

[edit on 13-12-2007 by joben]