Dealing with 9/11 Madness (argumentum ad hominem veritas)

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Does this mean we cant blame the govt?

If there is a new perp learned of, they will be attacked with theory and hypothesis (regardless of being a truther or not, thats really all we have).

What constitutes "attacks" and what level?

This sounds good. Get rid of the trolls and disinfo. Heated debates are fun!

Ad hominem attacks are the last bastion of a weak argument.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


completely agree...we have a chance to "hear" one another.lets all open our "ears"...while we still can

Nothing is going to change here.

Do you know why? Because if ATS took care of all the problem members in the 9/11 section, most of the skeptics would be gone.

Case in point, just look at the date of this thread, 2007. Most of the trouble-making skeptics from back then are still here.

Nothing is going to change here.

I believe that I'm safe in saying that 9/11 was a traumatic day for all & regardless of your personal beliefs emotions run high when discussing such an event. There are those who, like myself, are firm in their opinion(s) of what really happened that day & there's little to nothing anyone on ATS can say to change that. We're ALL entitled to speak our mind however it does need to be with respect for others & discussed civilly. What has floored me in reading this thread is that there are a couple of individuals who, for whatever reason, refuse to or are incapable of understanding the very simple lines that have been drawn & continue to want to argue & argue with SO at that! It's frustrating at best. It's the personal attacks against others that have very often prevented me from not only starting a thead in various forums (not specifically 9/11) but also replying in threads. I'm very happy to see that civility & decorum will be stressed.

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

 

Huh..what happened

I posted a reply after the survey. What's going on around here? Are we not being civil with each other again

I just landed in here because of the U2U.

Come on guys...be nice so the thread doesn't get shut down...please

No kidding.

I was waiting to see results. what did i find?

A RAGING CRAP STORM LOL!

Considering who is involved, I'm laughing my butt off!

Got my popcorn and dr pepper out and watching the sport!!!!

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


What about the "Hate America and Americans" threads,posts and comments?

Originally posted by gandamack2
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

 

What about the "Hate America and Americans" threads,posts and comments?

What about them? People are entitled to their opinion are they not?

reply to post by Kryties


Ok,by that train of thought,the mods are wrong to have this poilcy....Im saying that if personal attacks are regulated on one thread,then they should be on others...I dont give a rat patootie if you dont like America...what im saying is the mods have taken a stance on the 9/11 forum,so why not on the Hate America subject unless they endorse such thought and expression...and if so,just come out and say it...the we can ALL say what we think about those who live in other countries...and their morals...and their food...and their...well,if you have any brains at all,you get the drift

Originally posted by felonius
Does this mean we cant blame the govt?

One of the most stupid questions in this thread. Are you being purposefully obtuse and disruptive?

Originally posted by ATH911
Do you know why? Because if ATS took care of all the problem members in the 9/11 section, most of the skeptics would be gone.

As I've said many, many times -- and apparently need to keep typing it until my fingers bleed -- the majority of the problems in the 9/11 forum originate with "Truthers" and overly-aggressive conspiracy proponents.

The worst, most high-profile, offenders requiring account termination have been "personalities" in various factions of "Truth" movements.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Thanks for bringing up the issue of decency when it comes to debate. Frankly, the 9/11 “debate”; planned/not planned, the usual suspects, lost my interest a long time ago. My arguments were based on the physics of the event and the “possibility” of “X” leading to “Y," , etc. One can debate conspiracy until ones blue (or red) in the face. No need to burst a blood vessel. I have in many posts stated that indeed what “most” people think of when they hear the word “conspiracy” does indeed exist. What requires logic, a flexible intellect, and a decent appreciation of history and how humans react to said events is more muddled only because ALL “conspiracy” has its roots in cooperative behavior. You get two or more guys who agree to shovel ****, split the money from hopefully something they will be paid for; thats the root (cooperative behavior) of all conspiracies.

Separating those “in the loop” from the rest of us schmucks, thats where things get icky, and NO one likes to feel they don’t know what the hell is going on if they feel it MAY affect them. 9/11 affected us all, from the expansion of the contractor “rent a spooks", or "rent a guy who loves to shoot things”, anything, animate or not... This has created a mess when it comes to anyone identified as a westerner, and an American in particular for those legitimate contractors;aka, free lance operatives, (and they are out there, the professionals operating under strict rules of engagement and most importantly, they are by nature&training subtle). They put all legitimate actors not to mention in some cases the tourist sans unawares in potential great danger. I bring this issue up on a “9/11 post commentary” simply because after 9/11, Christ did we see amateur hour like rabbits on crank&viagra.

As for those who have “poison posts," at least it seems when directed at me I (rarely thankfully, hey, I’m a sensitive guy) seriously, it usually is out of “I have to express my frustration somehow," so one you don’t agree w/is always a gigantic target. I do see a lot of people targeted in what in my armchair psych. profiling looks like people who feel they are not treated with what THEY feel is appropriate respect. Don’t confuse kissing ones ass, in effect ego, as showing respect. Sometimes that only needs someone w/a different opinion to get someone in a mood to be crude&/or just rude. Hey people, disagree if you like and while if bringing up something of a historical or technical nature, facts DO matter. Science and doing ones homework (please use more in the way of “research” then Wiki !) IS NOT the same as ones point of view. Or how one “values and deals w/ said events”.

After all, it costs nothing to be polite, and if the point is the free exchange of ideas hopefully learning from others is the outcome, even if it’s not “the facts” but a different perspective. I don’t find value in being surrounded by “yes men”, in fact it’s pathetic. My dog and cat appreciate me just for being me (ok, food may have something to do w/it) but thats all the butt kissing I need.

given the severity of skeptics concerns and abiding by his wishes i felt it prudent to r ead every page and post

too see examples of what he was talking about i dont hang out in the 9-11 forum because well i just dont

after 17 pages of postings everyone can see what skeptic and the moderators are talking about.

offtopic posts,warning 9-11 and a number of bans.


when skeptic and the mods speak people should listen if ya dont we are not going to go out with a roar

but nothing but silence.

the site owner speaks the mods speak our only duty is to LISTEN because We are repsonsible for our own posts not other peoples.

I think alot of people on this thread are misunderstanding or not understanding fully what is being done here....I'm seeing that people think that it is just a new rule to punish people that are making nasty remarks about another person, it's clearly not that simple......from what i'm understanding we are losing the ability to post ideas we may have about a theory if we don't have the ability to show proof of it. i know that in my research, just hearing someone's idea about something has caused me to have an epiphany, which in turn led me to other information and the ability to link events to my satisfaction.....i would say, we might as well not even post on the 9/11 forums any longer because like the judicial system, we have complained ourselves into a corner and perpetuated more laws upon ourselves....kudos to the trolls, they win......this kind of reminds me of the same situation where the terrorists win because now we have relinquished more and more of our rights for the sake of safety...either way, they win too.......

Punish everyone because some can't follow the T&Cs? Wow...why do I feel like I'm in grade school again?

Heated subjects breed heated responses, but punishing the entire site due to the actions of a few and because it has after ten years not let up and become more of a challenge and tedious chore to moderate...well it's your site.

Also, 9/11 is probably what MADE this site. Just my opinion. Also my opinion is that political madness is the far more insulting place to be.

Well, although I haven't chose to partake in the 9-11 threads consistently I do find a lot of interest int the subject as of ALL the conspiracies and theories floating around this site the 9-11 one has THE MOST evidence and legitimacy to move forward with...

Having said that my personal interest in this site will significantly decrease on principal alone if the 9-11 topic is removed and "off the table". I understand setting rules and boundaries for topic to not spin into "trash" with nuggets of "truth" strung throughout... that's why you have moderators who can ban etc..Removing the topic all together for everyone is bad policy.

Removing a topic all together (especially one as well known and discussed as 9-11) will do more harm than not doing anything at all. I understand the authority here perceive some of the members as children who can't obey rules...they need to be removed then to keep your "order" in place. To the rest of your members that can discuss within your "order" it would be a slap in their face to say THEY cannot discuss the topic either because of the children who ruined it.

Its the same concept as "the few who ruin it for the many" its an absolutely horrible and lazy problem solving policy that does nothing more than infuriate those who can follow the rules.

As a member of ATS (hopefully that means something to the management) I would advise highly against even threatening your members with something such as the removal of 9-11 topic. Threats don't work on the internet and you will alienate MORE members that actually follow the rules than those members that don't.

I'll say again I understand this is "your site" and there needs to be "guidelines" but realize it wouldn't be what it is without the subscribers...advertisers wouldn't look at you twice if it wasn't for your subscriber base.

Even if you could hold ATS together without its subscriber base what then? The concept of ATS and a FORUM works because of the subscribers and their interest in contributing/participating/reading the material on these forums, WHICH by the way also is produced and created by your subscribers...

Keep this in mind when you decide to punish your entire subscriber base because of the actions of a few (who you can moderate/ban).

I don't intend to come off as "lecturing" but I don't respond well to threats when I have done nothing wrong, I am sure most of your subscribers here on ATS would feel the same.

Ultimately its YOUR CHOICE...I cannot control what you do, I cannot control what others in the 9-11 forums do, especially the ones breaking rules etc. I have been following the rules all along so really...no its not at all "MY CHOICE" apparently its up to you and your "authority" to make good on your threats.

What we are seeing here is how it is impossible to balance any semblence of freedom with the desire for order.

I could condemn the site management here, and that would be all too easy. But this IS their site after all. So, instead, this is just like i tell my children: "YOU are responsible for how you respond."

If there is someone from "the other side" saying things that are inflammatory, walk away. Not too hard. This whole syndrome of "Wait, someone on the internet is wrong and it is my duty to set them straight" is wholly stupid and beneath myself and most members here.

Take responsibility for YOUR actions, and quit whining about how someone else said something mean to you. That is what the "Report" button is for. Not doing so means that you are the problem just as much as "the other side".

Originally posted by felonius
Does this mean we cant blame the govt?

What ever gave you that idea? It's simple really, don't personally attack other posters. People attack the Government here all the time bro. ~SheopleNation

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

I believe there are some posters who would like the discussion to come to an end.

reply to post by gentledissident


And it clearly seems to be working.

I tried to read some of the posts in the 9/11 forum to gain evidence either way (I am on the fence) and can't seem to get past the first page without throwing my hands in the air. Contrary to what SO says... I see it the other way. Someone brings up an alternate theory and is instantly blasted as "nuts". I also see it the other way... don't get me wrong... just not as much.

I hate to say it but I see a bias here against the "truthers".

JT

*Edit to add* a simple ban of members would be a better solution than closing the entire forum. The forum in which brought most of your members to this site.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
As I've said many, many times -- and apparently need to keep typing it until my fingers bleed -- the majority of the problems in the 9/11 forum originate with "Truthers" and overly-aggressive conspiracy proponents.

The worst, most high-profile, offenders requiring account termination have been "personalities" in various factions of "Truth" movements.

Well I'll have to take your word on that because I mostly engage with skeptics and there are about a half-dozen skeptics who have been here for years who are constantly rude and engage in ad-hom attacks. Why are they still here?