Prognosis Is Poor For South St. Louis Teen Tased By Police

Prognosis Is Poor For South St. Louis Teen Tased By Police

www.ksdk.com

(KSDK) - St. Louis Police say a 17 year old who threatened law officers is in grave condition, after one of the officers was forced to use a taser on him. The teen's own mother had summoned police, saying he had been drinking and was belligerent.

(visit the link for the full news article)

I'm not going to say whether or not the officers involved did the right thing by tasing this kid, they used a tool that they have been givin.

I would like to comment on just how many people have to die as a result form being tased, before the public demands investigations whether or not these are effective tools for law enforcement to have, with around 300 deaths due to tasers since 2001, I think they should not be used against the citizens of this country.

This kid has not died he is just in the hospital

www.ksdk.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Since the kid allegedly attacked the cops he's lucky he's not dead anyway. For all we know he's 180lbs of raw muscle. Bullets used to be the only thing to help in that situation. Although I agree if he does die this should go on the "How Can You Idiots Believe Tasers Can't Kill?" tally board.

Originally posted by apc
Since the kid allegedly attacked the cops he's lucky he's not dead anyway. For all we know he's 180lbs of raw muscle. Bullets used to be the only thing to help in that situation. Although I agree if he does die this should go on the "How Can You Idiots Believe Tasers Can't Kill?" tally board.

In this instance I'm not blaming the police, the mother wanted the kid arrested, the kid threw something at the police and charged them.

But some pepper spray to the face would most likely have ended this little out burst. And the kid would not be in the hospital, facing a life and death situation.

Just because their criminals don't mean they should not receive due process.

Tasers are not a good tool for the police to have.

You're telling me if the Hulk is throwing stuff and charging at you you're going to place your faith of saving your life in a little can of hair spray that you hope you get in his eyes and the density of the puff somehow absorbs the momentum of his giant green body plowing towards you like a train?

That's obviously an extreme but we weren't there so we don't know the details of the situation. However this kid placed his own life in danger by attacking cops. These are the cases where a taser is absolutely justified. It's either that, or a billy club to the back of the head. I'm all for the latter personally, but what can you do?

>
note that is again the allegation. If the cops made up the charging part then uhm... I just bought some apples...

[edit on 9-12-2007 by apc]

reply to post by apc


I believe the mother was also present. And a whack to the arm with a billy club, would not have put this kids life in jeopardy. If two cops can't handle a 17 year old kid, or like in other situations elderly women, diabled people in wheelchairs, or kids uder 17 years old, they shouldn't be cops.

I pretty much agree as there are far too many cops who practically are elderly women, disabled, or scrawny twerp kids. But that does not mean a weapon less likely to kill than a firearm has no place in the police arsenal.

Originally posted by apc
I pretty much agree as there are far too many cops who practically are elderly women, disabled, or scrawny twerp kids. But that does not mean a weapon less likely to kill than a firearm has no place in the police arsenal.

You see thats the thing, tasers are not used for deadly force, they are used for Non deadly force situation. The problem with tasers are that people are dying from there use, so are they really a non deadly alternative?

A gun was not required in this situation because there lives were not threatened, a club, mace or just brute force would have worked and this kid among the others who have died would have there day in court.

Tasers being used inappropriately is indeed the problem. But they still have an appropriate place just below more-likely lethal force AKA a bullet.

reply to post by apc


That is the problem, The guidelines for the use of force are different in different law enforcement agencies all over the country.

I started a thread on this problem, Police RuleBook: Use of Tasers a little while ago.

There was a report done, Use of Tasers by Selected Law Enforcement Agencies that went around to several different law enforcement agencies and compared where tasers were in their "Use Of Force" protocols.

What they found was that some agencies listed the taser as only to be used in the same situation as a gun, some on the same level of force as pepper spray and mace, and others on the same level of force as verbal commands!

The placement of the Taser on the use-of-force continuums of the agencies varied.10 Specifically, we found that the seven agencies placed the Taser at three different levels on their use-of-force continuums. As shown in table 1, [two agencies—the Sacramento Police Department and the Sacramento Sheriff’s Department—permit the use of Tasers when a police officer perceives the situation as potentially harmful, as when a subject engages in assaultive behavior that creates a risk of physical injury to another. Impact weapons, such as night sticks and batons, can also be used in these situations. They include, for example, instances in which a subject attacks or threatens to attack an officer by fighting and kicking.

Four other police departments—the Austin Police Department, the Ohio
Highway Patrol, the Phoenix Police Department, and the San Jose Police
Department—allow the use of Tasers at a lower level in the use-of-force continuum in situations that the officer perceives as volatile.11 This occurs, for example, when a subject is actively resisting arrest but not attacking the officer. The use of chemical sprays12 to subdue the subject is another option in such a situation. Finally, one agency—the Orange County Sheriff’s Department—allows the use of Tasers in situations that an officer perceives as tactical, such as when a subject is “passively resisting” by not responding to the lawful, verbal commands of the officer.

This is why you see and hear about people being tased for the slightest reasons sometimes.

[edit on 9/12/07 by Keyhole]

The seventeen-year-old in this story is my cousin. What you don't know is that they sent two woman cops to a domestic disturbance call. They didn't even try to restrain him themselves. He did not pass out while talking to the cops. He passed out as soon as he was hit with the taser and was unconscious while my aunt begged the police to call the paramedics. They finally did, his heart stopped in the ambulance and they had to use the paddles to make it beat again. His brain was without oxygen for an unknown length of time. At the hospital they had to induce a coma and when he wakes up, if he wakes up, he might be a vegetable or he might be fine. Or he might die.

Tasing someone is meant to be a non lethal alternative for police officers. Its not looking so non lethal anymore. It kinda defeats the purpose if it kills 17 year olds too. They cant really say age is a factor anymore. Not only are people dieing but they are suffering horribly just before doing so. If its a choice of death by electrocution or by bullet I think electrocution is the more inhumane method. They might as well go back to using batons, the survival rate is much better.

I have mentioned this in other threads, and I feel the need to mention it again here...

I have a sure-fire way for everyone to avoid being tasered by police...

Do not interact with the police!

Do not do anything that will require the police to come near you. I made it to age 40 without ever being threatened, harassed, beaten, tased, or even questioned by the police.

If I can do it so can you!

I don't think the diabetic coma guy in Britain really had a say in the matter.

Not to mention all the situations where people have been lawfully acting within their 4th Amendment rights to deny unreasonable search without probable cause, or the people acting within their 1st Amendment rights to free speech and right to protest. When these people are being lit up just because they didn't follow the commands of some pig that is a disgrace to the badge, there's a bit of a problem.

Board up your windows and lock yourself indoors if you wish. That's probably what they want.

outpost_road, thank you for your reported details. Whatever moron sent two female officers on a DV call should be canned.

[edit on 11-12-2007 by apc]

Originally posted by apc
Board up your windows and lock yourself indoors if you wish. That's probably what they want.[edit on 11-12-2007 by apc]

Is this directed toward me? I live a full and exciting life. I go out and interact with other members of society on a daily basis. I do not engage in activities that will bring me to the attention of law enforcement officials.

Originally posted by apcWhatever moron sent two female officers on a DV call should be canned.[edit on 11-12-2007 by apc]

Wow, just wow. Instead of making statements like that, why not protest the fact that departmental standards were lowered to allow people, both men and women, who are physically unable to perform the job of police officer to become police officers.

Aside from that, it is apparent that you have never been in the position of having to restrain someone. I am 6'0, and a very muscular 260 lbs. I can tell you from personal experience that if someone does not want to be taken into custody, then it is very difficult to take him or her into custody no matter how many large size officers you have present.

Why should a law enforcement officer take the risk of being bitten, spit in the face, stabbed, etc. because some teen or whoever wants to act in a belligerent manner. Before tasers and mace were in use, a person like this would have been beaten into submission with a baton.


[edit on 11-12-2007 by craig732]

Sigh... have you even read any of my other posts?

And yes... moron for sending two female officers on a DV call. Says who? Says biology. If someone calls the cops about their drunk 17 year old kid, you don't send a couple women and act surprised when he thinks he can overpower them. You send 6 foot tall 260lb men to intimidate the hell out of the kid and maybe things get real calm real fast.

Originally posted by apc
You send 6 foot tall 260lb men to intimidate the hell out of the kid and maybe things get real calm real fast.

Unfortunately in real life it doesn't work that way.

People who are acting irrational or belligerent usually are not intimidated by their parents, grandparents, 6 foot tall 260lb men, batons, mace, tasers, or firearms.

Ah. Usually. Gotcha. Is that a statistical statement or are you speaking from experience? Because my experience disagrees.

Regardless, you're making an argument out of... nothing. Your original point seems to be, "Don't do anything to get the attention of the cops." Which basically amounts to, "Keep your mouth shut and do what you're told."

Is that the real life you live in?

Originally posted by apc
Ah. Usually. Gotcha. Is that a statistical statement or are you speaking from experience? Because my experience disagrees.

Regardless, you're making an argument out of... nothing. Your original point seems to be, "Don't do anything to get the attention of the cops." Which basically amounts to, "Keep your mouth shut and do what you're told."

Is that the real life you live in?

Speaking from experience.

I am not looking to argue man, please excuse me if that is how I came off. I am just expressing my opinions here.

I do not advocate anyone just keeping their mouth shut and doing as they are told. I just feel that when people reap what they sow.

Why is it that I, and most people, can get through life without being harassed or tased or whatever by cops, but other people do get harassed and tased by cops? I am not saying there are never cases where cops are totally out of line and use excessive and unwarrented force. But in most situations when a person is tased it is because they engaged in some sort of behavior that brought them to the attention of the police. In most situations they bring these problems upon themselves. Not all, but most.

I used to be the same way. Don't do anything to get noticed and you've got nothing to worry about.

Times have changed though. Our rights are being trampled by the rise of a police state. When the police are so overwhelmingly abusive of their power and so-called authority, we have a choice between remaining submissive and tolerant of these injustices or fighting back within the system and, if necessary, without.

Fifteen years ago the people of Los Angeles made it abundantly clear what happens when tolerance is exhausted. Police forces across this country seemed to learn their lesson. Today, they have forgotten it.

Obviously this doesn't apply to this kid. He was drunk and attacked cops. There's not a whole lot to say about that beyond, "YOU DRUNK MORON!" Does that mean the officers handled the situation appropriately? To that I can only speculate. If this kid was a scrawny 120lb stoner, I would say absolutely not. If he was a lineman for his highschool football team, he could have done some real damage if the officers didn't compare in stature.

We can't say what most situations are because all situations aren't reported. We'd have to put together an actual statistic of all incidents of taser use and see just how many cases were justified. The deaths do get reported however, and it is clear to me that most of them were not justified. Resisting arrest or not obeying verbal commands in no way warrants this level of force. Not until someone is physically threatened can the risking of the suspect's life be justified.