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Thoughts about War in General and about One with Iran in Particular

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posted on Dec, 2 2007 @ 10:29 AM
War doesn't come around by accident. There have to be a conflict first, and if the willingness to resolve it by talks and politics is not present, it is invitable. As Clausewitch put it: war is an extension of politics.

However for any leader to take it to that, a desire of the people must be there, which not necessary means any true or real conflict is present.

Remember Goebbles "Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?". I guess we all have seen the footage and the resounding "JAAA" that went through the Berliner Sports Palatz on that night of February 1943. Obviously they had no idea it was an approval of their own sacrifice. But the desire of the people was there.

What I see now in America, despite the dwindling support for its hegemonic rulers, is a growing desire of the people to wage another war with an intend that -like Iraq and Afghanistan was- in its core essence is criminal.

Let's not forget the only 'legal' reasons for war are attack or threats about it. That was what the scoundrels of the White House tried to sell the post-9-11 wars as, but what since has been so fundamental debunked.

What I'm saying, you, the people, must want the war in your hearts, before it can be executed. Understandable the desire was there after 9-11 and understandable the bogus reasons were believed. But it's hard for me to understand such a growing desire, like now, for engaging in an armed conflict with Iran, when the objective goal, to prevent it from developing nuclear technologies, no matter the scale or character of campaign, can never be achieved.

I like to link my argument to an interview with Scott Ritter, an arms expert and a former Marine Corps intelligence officer, chief UN weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998, who last year had the book "Target Iran" out.

When asked what damage an attack on Iran would do to its nuclear program, he says:

No damage would be done to it. Remember, the problem the Iranians face isn't the manufacture of this equipment. They've already mastered that. And if you think for a second machine tools that are used to manufacture enrichment equipment are going to be stored out in the open where we can bomb them, you're wrong. They've been dispersed. The Iraqis were masters of this. We spent a lot of money blowing up concrete, but we never got the machine tools, because they were always hidden. They were always evacuated the day before - they'd take it to palm groves or warehouses that we didn't know about, or hidden in narrow streets. And we never detected that, and we never got them. The Iranians are even better. They've been mastering the technology of deep-earth tunneling, so they can hide things underground that we can't reach with our conventional weapons. So I just think it is absurd to talk about bombing these sites, because all we'll do is blow up buildings that can be rebuilt.

This is an expert's statement, so no matter how much the desire, like it all too often is expressed, and what seems more and more frequent, even on this board, to "nuke the hell out of 'em", it won't help. It will only create Armageddon. And you never know what a religious lunatic can do.

I find it disturbing that an American politician who is supposed to be the head of a secular nation where religion is protected but there is no state religion, and who has control over the world's largest nuclear arsenal, not only openly talks about how God is his final adviser, which pretty much negates the role of Congress or any other system of governmental oversight, checks and balances of the executive, but also embraces a kind of evangelicalism that gives legitimacy to the notion of the rapture, Armageddon, the apocalypse as a good thing.

About Ahmadinejad he have this to say:

The bottom line is, not only doesn't he account for much, his words haven't created a problem at all. Half the things we claim he said, he never said at all. And the other half we put out of context and exaggerate.

I'm not here to defend what the guy says. But the notion that just because a man dared question a 100 percent interpretation of the history of the Holocaust as put forward by Israel - and again, I'm not saying he's right to do that - I'm just saying that because he dared do that, he's suddenly evil incarnate and we need to go to war against this guy? No. At worst he's a joke. He's a guy whose words mean nothing, have no power, have no relevance. It's the supreme leader that matters. And, yes, today the supreme leader continues to want to seek to normalize relations with the United States.

About the Irainian people.

I can tell you that it is the last nation in the world we should be saying these are people we have to fight. When you visit Iran and you see the Iranian people and you get the chance to talk to them, you realize that these are peaceful people. These are highly educated people. They are more like us than we can possibly imagine. They are very Western in their approach, although they reject the term Western because they say think those in the West are Neanderthals compared to the Persian culture. But they are very modern in their approach. They are a very modern people.

About how to resolve the conflict.

We should be doing everything to get Iran to be a positive player in the region, especially considering the debacle that's unfolding in Iraq. Having the Iranians working with us to engender stability as opposed to being at cross-purposes.

The same can be said in Afghanistan and the entire central Asian region. We keep putting our hopes on allies like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Saudi Arabia, which produced 14 of the hijackers who slaughtered Americans on 9/11. Pakistan, which was the political sponsor of the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and continues to have ties to radical Islamic terror organizations. These are our allies? And we call Iran the enemy? We've got it backward. The Iranians are actually the ones we should be working with to oppose dictatorships like Pakistan and irresponsible governments like Saudi Arabia's.

These are the word of an expert and a wise man. People in general can't be expected to be experts, but common sense should be base of the sane. That's were the real problem comes in. America is loosing its sanity. Massmedia is the tool who brought it there, and the corporate politics of the GWB administration the down-lever that took a free press, once legendary, to a level of pure entertainment. I do think there are reasons to suspect Britney and Paris to be part of a psy-op. The media needs the diversion useful idiots like them do bring.

But people, please don't let you fool, don't let the distraction of bimbos let you into ignorance, because remember ignorance is just another word for fear. And against that there's only one remedy: knowledge.

Thanks for listening.

posted on Dec, 2 2007 @ 11:50 PM
So Mr. Ritter was implying that Iraq actually did have WMD?

Dodged the one line post rule

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 12:27 AM
Awesome post Khumoon,
We are going to do noting but stir up a big hornets nest.

What was it the Japanese say?

'' I fear all we did was awaken an angry bear ''

Persians, are amazing.
My partner has taught me so much, them as a people are incredible.

They will defend their rights, and so they should.

I fear for any western politican who believes striking Persia is in its best interests.

I believe, as you added that we need to bring Iran into the situation under a positive guise.

Invest with them, in their land.
Share profits with them,
Do not give them a REASON To hate the west, talk and assist them.

They have never attacked Israel, or a neighbouring nation and to think they will as soon as they gain nuclear weapons is stupidity.

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:23 AM
Thanks for an intelligent reply Agit,

Yes, I care about this issue and my post is one I thought about for a long time before I hit the keyboard. It needs to be said and I wish I could have said it better, but I assure you I have use all my sense of civility, not to stir up any "hornets nest". I had expected though the warmongers to show up, so maybe I've been too civil.

My first concern is the manipulation of the populace to go to war. I never thought a relatively well educated population like Americans to fall that easy for the deceptions of demagogs. What has been put in the mouth of Ahmadinejad is one thing, but as they again and again have been debunked and proven a destortion of his actual words --well, at least here on ATS-- and you still see the ignorant and hateful comments posted I dispair and lose my faith in both ATS and Americans as such. To put my fingerprint, no matter how smeared or small, I had to write this post, and as I said, only wish I could have said it better.

As I sense it Americans are getting there, where Goebbles had the Germans in 1943. That total lie a majority in the US so obviously now believe, and are embedding hate deep in their hearts should be contrasted by the sentiment of Iranians, who show no indication what so ever of hatred against Americans. I think they still, more or less secretly admire American culture and honestly wish to be friends with them -- which they have always been. Well, untill religious fanatics took over. And really, there are no difference between the fundamentalism in beliefs of GWB and the ayatollahs.

Yes, I have been to Iran too -- many years ago, in the days of the shah -- and I can only say I never met a more hospital people on earth --or in the 30+ countries I've visited. And generally well informed -- and it was 40 years ago I first was there.

There are NO REASONS what so ever for US to wage war against them. Except greed and hegemony, and if they do I'm sure God --if there is any-- will damn the US of A.

Well, now it's said.

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 07:15 AM
If America and Iran became allies it would cause alot of strife too.

Shiites would get a bad reputation for being "U.S. Spies", and would be discriminated and killed in: Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Iran, Afganistan, Pakistan, by Sunnis.

Sunni countries currently not supporting terrorism would start supporting it to counter our alliance with Iran and the dominance it would create in the region.

So you'd just be shuffling your cards really. They come out the same

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 08:09 AM
ALL cultures are amazing.

Humanity is amazing.

The only problems that occur are when despots try and take control of humanity and harness it for their own selfish purposes. This is the force that can bring out the worst in humanity. An act none of us, in our hearts, wants to participate in.

I know not one person who could truly take a knife and cut a stranger's throat. Only when you are lied to and tread upon by evil so many times that your heart is callous and your soul is angry can you commit an act such as this.

The PEOPLE are not doing this to each other. Their leaders are.

"Leaders" must always be scrutinized with the most critical eye, never trusted at face value. There is always an agenda, and seldom is it peaceful.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by dionysius9]

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 08:43 AM
When we hear about the possibility of war with Iran and what a horrible thing "they" are doing with trying to acquire nukes, why does the word "they" always end up being one person, Ahmadinejad. In my opinion, he is doing and saying the same sorts of things Kim Jong Il does and says. North Korea has had nukes for a long time now and they are in a much worse position as a nation than Iran.

Do I think Iran having nuclear weapons is a good thing? Heck no! Do I think we should go to war to prevent them having them? Hell no!

When the government really starts to push the 'war with Iran' agenda, the American people need to be extra cautious and start reading between the lines and doing our own research. No more taking officials word that this is the best thing for the country.

The U.S. has been at war far too long now and it needs to stop.

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:01 AM
reply to post by Anjin

Just remember Ahmadinejad --compared to KimJong Il-- has no power at all, he is only a front figur that to us comes across a little comic with his overseized jackets and misinterprted comments.

The power in Iran is with the grand Ayatollah.

From link.

At worst he's a joke. He's a guy whose words mean nothing, have no power, have no relevance. It's the supreme leader that matters. And, yes, today the supreme leader continues to want to seek to normalize relations with the United States.

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 03:52 PM
reply to post by khunmoon

Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out post.

Maybe I am one of those “weak minded” Americans that have been deceived by whomever (it doesn’t matter), but I don’t see Iran as a harmless, misunderstood nation. They have been antagonistic toward the US for decades. They have been more than happy to provide funds and weapons anyone who will try to kill Americans or other Western nationals. If there is a terrorist group anywhere in the world that hates America – Iran, Syria and several other nations are there to support them.

Of course, there is always someone to say “the evil US did this (whatever it is) to the Iranians and that is why they hate us.” But this argument doesn’t acknowledge that there are religious, ethnic and racial conflicts all over the world that have existed for hundreds or thousands of years. The US has only existed for 231 years and has only been a major world power for about the last 100 years. I just don’t buy the explanation that everyone in the world who hates the US would actually love us if we just hadn’t done something evil to them first. We are not so all powerful as to be the cause of every problem or conflict around the world. There is plenty of hatred out there toward the US that we did nothing to earn.

As for Mr. Ritter or any other so-called expert or “wise man” who says one thing, you can find 10 other equally expert people who have 10 totally different opinions. How do we know who to believe? How do we know Mr. Ritter is not being paid by someone to say what he does? Does being associated with the United Nations make him totally reliable? Does giving someone a Nobel Prize mean they are totally truthful? How do we know what ANYONE says is true or not?

This is what I find so frustrating. With all of the layers of information, disinformation, spin, propaganda, conspiracy, political agendas and just plain old lies I don’t see how we can ever know the real story. You can probably tell that you and I disagree on the Iranian issue but does that make one of us righteous and the other a “war monger?”

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:47 PM
reply to post by itguysrule

Despite our opinions differ I cerntainly don't see you as a “war monger”. With your well argued post --for which I thank you-- we just have different believes. As you put it yourself, how can we ever know the truth. No we can't, but we know sanity and common sense and that should make us qualified to a sound judgement. We should expect our leaders to have that too, but unfortunately... ...

Therefore todays news on Iran's nuclear program gives me the hope that Armageddon can be avoided, and sanity may prevail. It's quite obvious a sign of differencies in opinion within the structure of power.

Like Scott puts it, he wish every American was issued a passport and a roundtrip to Iran, because then for sure there would be no war.

Instead a lunatic moron --or a few-- would be dragged out of the White House to stand charges for crimes against the American people and hopefully humanity too.

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 11:06 PM
If Iran continues their SUPPORT of terrorists, Yes they are in the crosshairs and rightfully so....Your quotes from the "Expert" are just that, one mans opinion(with a book to hype and sell)..Your Statement: " And you never know what a religious lunatic can do." ...Strap an allah vest on and pop it in your hometown for starters... Wont you feel great that you talked up those folks??? I also have recently been to the Middle-East, Isreal, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Saudi, and all those little sandpits in between, and I can tell you the ONLY place an American will be welcomed is Isreal, welcomed meaning invited into the homes for diner, welcomed by being talked to as an equal, welcomed by being treated as a humanbeing...

posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Oneshot1
I can tell you the ONLY place an American will be welcomed is Isreal, welcomed meaning invited into the homes for diner, welcomed by being talked to as an equal, welcomed by being treated as a humanbeing...

Oh ma gewd! Can that really be any wonder.

...and ..please don't blame me for any suicide bomber. Blame your leaders.

posted on Dec, 4 2007 @ 06:22 AM
Another "Hate America First " thread here folks, blame America for all the worlds sins Ya know...Your reaction " oh my god" is exactly my point KhunMoon...Not blaming you for HOMICIDE bombers, Just wondering how you will feel if/when an explosive packed vest garnished with ballbearings and nuts is popped in your hometown by a muslim, after what seems to me your support for said scum???.....That Scott comment about giving a passport and round trip to Iran because for sure there would be no War???? Pfft 99% of Americans would be shocked at the *hit-holeness" of the country in general and their treatment of women, and they could'nt get out of there quick enough to take a shower to wash the hate and dust off themselves....

posted on Dec, 4 2007 @ 08:07 AM
Well mr Oneshot, you need more than that on me.

You did write "Wont you feel great that you talked up those folks???" No matter how you spin my words, I'm not staying were your thought control act have any jurisdiction. And FYI, my statement about religious lunatic was reffering to a certain resident on Pensylvania Av., DC, to spare you any further comments on that, I can refer to the memoires of former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder. We are not used to get God mixed up with politics in Europe you see.

And your comment about "hate America" tells more about you than about me. I did this post because I care about America, and don't want to see her go down the line of hatred. And because this world is mine just as much as it is yours.

For you... I'm afraid I can't do much.

posted on Dec, 4 2007 @ 09:38 AM
There are certainly reasons for mistrust between peoples of the Earth. One nation always glances with covetous intent at another, seeing this group as having those things they wish to posses. When desire outweighs caution, war results. That has been the way of man since he walked erect.

But, we can hope for, and work towards, a future not not so uncivilized. Sharing is the path to peace, and must at some point be the measure of growing maturity. The desire to take and control needs to take the path of the dodo.

And we need, as a species, to get past the childishness of who is most wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right. Is it wrong for an oil exporter to hold that currently vital fluid hostage? Is it wrong for a big nation to threaten the peace of another smaller nation? As a race, man needs to realize that in an ever shrinking world, it is cooperation and not conflict that will tip surviving from only a chance to a certainty.

Both "sides" here are wrong. The Iranian strawman for trying to bolster his influence by baiting the big dog, and the big dog for threatening to chew up the strawman. The people, of all nations, must put aside their leaders, for the day of these fossils are past. People must realize that there needs to be other options besides those espoused by the power hungry who seek the adoration of their own group by dominating some other group.

There needs to be a stop to following, and a start to leading. Leading is done by example, and not blind obedience to others. There are only two sides here, the wrong approaches of the past which lead to conflict, and the right approach of the future which leads to complimentary compromise. Our future on this blue ball depends on cooperation, and if leaders refuse, whether for pride or power, to see this, then they need to be replaced.

When conflict is desired in the hearts of men, it is found on one of two paths: ignorance or need. Ignorance stems from thinking some leaders is smarter than anyone else, so what he says must be the truth. Need is when a real, or perceived, deficit makes the coveting nature of man blind him to the true price of acquiring his desires. There are no winners in war among the populations as a whole, only varying degrees of losers.

Instead of standing forth as partisans of a side in this potential conflict, long term progress will only come when the average Iranian and the average American realizes that war will only enhance a select few, no matter who "wins" the conflict.

posted on Dec, 4 2007 @ 12:09 PM
Great post NGC

You are right about the desire thing. And I do think the biggest desire comes from Western corporate side. I don't think there's much desire, or envy for that matter, from ordinary muslims. In there eyes we are the barbarians in no way desirable.

Foremost it was desire for the fossil fluids that drove the Iraq war.

But let us not forget where oil is the primary factor, the secondary, and in the end maybe most important motive, is the propagation of American culture. To open up new markets. The US agenda is imperialistic. And that agenda has been there long before 911.

Here we comes to the clash of cultures and the core reason of muslim insurgency. They don't want shallow entertainment, pornography or any other dekadence of Western culture. They want the technology, fridges, tellie, computer etc, yes, the hardware so to speak, not the contents of it. But the very idea of selling these gadgets are they support a lifestyle of prefabricated foods and entertainment products. The hardware you can sell a consumer one time every 5 to 10 years, but the contents has to be renewed daily. That's where the profits are. And clashes of cultur.

Because muslim don't want those 'consumer goods'. That they could very easy be subdued if the flodgates where opened is another thing. And what holy war is really about.

I don't believe in the bogus about an intended caliphat, I believe in respect for other cultures and religions and the peaceful co-existens of them.

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