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Here's a tough question:

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posted on Nov, 16 2007 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by Toromos
 


yeah, that's where i got it from, just got the specific wording of it from jesus and mo... which i always like to plug




posted on Nov, 16 2007 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by kinglizard
 


ok... but is it good because it comes from god or is it coming from god because it's good?



You don't understand. God is goodness... Therefore, both apply.

[edit on 16-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Nov, 16 2007 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
If god wanted us all to think the same things are good, you'd think he'd have made us all to find the same things good.


There is commonality... Let me ask you a question. Do you think rape is good? Murder? War? Genocide? Hate?

Do you think any or all of those things are good? I bet not. Although, murder sometimes can be justified, that doesn't really equate into it being good.





[edit on 16-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Nov, 16 2007 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
There is commonality... Let me ask you a question. Do you think rape is good? Murder? War? Genocide? Hate?


Hmm most of those things relate to god...

IMO those things are not good, but universally there is no answer.





posted on Nov, 16 2007 @ 11:32 PM
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There is no such thing as good or evil in the uyniverse ecsept in our pitiful minds. we created good and evil to justify persecuting or stoping those who did things we either didnt like or were detremetal to our societys, thats my take.
as for the op: wheather good came from god or the other way around doesnt mater because god and morality all came from man. (no offenct to believers intended)



posted on Nov, 17 2007 @ 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
You don't understand. God is goodness... Therefore, both apply.


maybe the word goodness has you confused as i'm using it in the moral sense. i'm asking if things are morally good because god does them or if god does them because they are morally good.



Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
There is commonality... Let me ask you a question. Do you think rape is good? Murder? War? Genocide? Hate?


rape: god thinks it's kosher, look at the case of the midianites
murder: god had no qualm with killing all the firstborn children of egypt
war: ...the jewish conquests of canaan
genocide: midia
hate: god seems to have a hate-on for the nonjews in the OT



posted on Nov, 17 2007 @ 07:54 AM
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Evil begets evil. Suffering begets suffering.



posted on Nov, 17 2007 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by depth om
Evil begets evil. Suffering begets suffering.


then that would mean that god is evil as evil had to have had an initial starting point and said deity is claimed to be the origin of all



posted on Nov, 17 2007 @ 08:53 PM
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The construct wavers as we ourselves do. When man when man serves evil, he himself will be served evil. God did not make sin. The un-yoked will can choose to be anti-god, act regardless of God. To sin is to die. If you "heap burning coal" upon someone, those embers will end up burning you. God judges. Moreso than evil begetting evil, evil begets judgement.



posted on Nov, 17 2007 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

rape: god thinks it's kosher, look at the case of the midianites
murder: god had no qualm with killing all the firstborn children of egypt
war: ...the jewish conquests of canaan
genocide: midia
hate: god seems to have a hate-on for the nonjews in the OT



It's funny that you and others, even alleged "Christians", continue to reference this god of the OT...



posted on Nov, 18 2007 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


same god... there's 0 theological basis for separating the god of the OT from the god of the NT unless you wish to exclude certain references including things that jesus said himself...

oh, and let's dig into the NT
...plenty of that stuff seems ok in the epistles
and the oppression of women is outlined as well...

hmm hmm hmmmmm



posted on Nov, 18 2007 @ 03:29 PM
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oh, and let's dig into the NT
...plenty of that stuff seems ok in the epistles
and the oppression of women is outlined as well...


I love this kind of public education type logic and reason. It is textbook but passes so often by default on people who have been spiritually and effectively neutered by public trends..changing like the wind ..in default to play through unaccountable.

This is part of that time warp technique so popular with many today. Victimization...more victimization to play though on the backs of people who cannot think further than guilt conditioning.

Lets take a closer look at this Victimization and how it works or is attempted to default through ..unacountable to others. YOu know...like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are so wont to do and so often. These two "usual suspects " are not the only ones to use this time warp technique but they are among the most visible.

Women were victims back in the OT and also the NT times. Ok..lets look at this closer. Does anyone know what the mortality rate was men to women in OT times ..how about NT times?? Think long and hard on this concept before stating who was a downtrodden victim here. What does mortality rates and the difference in them tell you about the concept of opression?? Think here ...dont emote.

How about today..in "enlightened times" WHo has the higher mortality rates among an "Oppressed" people.
I was posting in the Survival Forum in a board called womens survival. What amazed me was the number of women who recognized that they were such victims and downtroddened or oppressed if their men ,so often as historically recorded ,perished first. The tragedy was that the men perished and left the women unprotected..kids too. THe tragedy was not that the men perished early in life or more noticably early than the women. It was the women and kids. What a scam.

Let me translate this for you folks with a heightened sense of fairness and equality. The men get no safety net while they are living. They perish more often and earlier than the women. Shame on them for doing this and allowing it to happen to the women.

Men are expendable and disposable and women are not ..that is the message of equality and fairness. Enlightment.

The main thing so clearly noticable in times past is the death of the woman in childbirth. You can see this clearly if you have ever been in older graveyards and read the headstones. Children and women had a higher mortalithy rate in childbirth than today. Noticably higher.
Technology and knowhow has changed this so much today but we still have this "victim mentality going on and using the time warp technique to boost this nonsesnse.

Dont worry ..this is so ingrained in so many males and female almost none think of it in this manner. Also history is such a poorly taught subject today that few can think or understand it beyond their emotions and emotional settings.

By the way..for those of you steeped in history..this was going on ..the complaint of many ,,,in non christian nations too. The impression given by so many is that it was mainly christian nations. Dont be deceived by this one sided nonsense. It is nonsense. It continues in non christian nations today.

Be very careful how people stack up nonsense to look good and play through by default. Our body politic uses this very same technique to play through by default and cultivate votes among the uneducated and easily emotional for votes. Remember too that the body politic also pays for or finances our public education. They would not teach you anything which would jeopardize thier available voting base. In otherwords teach you to think and act/conduct yourself independently.

Remember this when you see posts using such a time warp technique to stick you back in a time warp to make a point and play through by default. This is quite often done in the religious threads.
Jesse and Al are not the only ones using this technique to keep others silent.
This techinque is also a type of "Censorship" on those not knowlegable enough in history to know better. It is intended to silence so many such that others can play through unaccountably.

Wise up..educate yourself in something other than emotions and makeover techniques.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 18 2007 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


so you're going to tell me that the inherent refusal of the NT and OT to recognize women as human beings is ok?

i read the long stream of semi-historical and somewhat coherent reasoning, but it's mostly not applicable. the historical context is something that we aren't talking about here, this is base theology. working from the context that this book is supposed to be the inerrant word of god and thus not subject to those things.



posted on Nov, 18 2007 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
is something good because god commands it, or does god command it because it's good?


Personally, I don't see how either one must be true. Either GOD says 'do this' and I do it....or not.

And, personally speaking again, GOD doesn't tell me what to do or what not to do. I have my own mind by GOD's design and so I use it. I'm not good so my actions are not good or bad. I would say they are either positive or negative in their affect on me and anyone else who might be affected. In whole or in part.

What matters to me is truth. Either something is true or it isn't. Or else it is a subjective opinion. The rest is head-games, IMO.



posted on Nov, 18 2007 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Well, given the fact that I view 90% of mainstream theologians as being full of #, you're comments are of absolute no significance to me whatsoever. Nice try though.



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 05:22 AM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


i'm not talking about theologians, i'm talking about theology. the idea you put forth can't even be supported theologically... which means that it's not just beyond defense, it's beyond defense of the only study that can justify things without backing from anything but one book.



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 07:01 AM
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so you're going to tell me that the inherent refusal of the NT and OT to recognize women as human beings is ok?


Uh...Jesse..I mean Al..I mean Madness...is this a prelude to a default setting to censor me and allow you to play through unaccountalbe.

Let me try this again since the logic and reason does not seem to compute next to the "Holyness" of being a human. Especially the human "victms."
Historically unto this very day..men usually die or perish before women. Who is the lesser human being here?? Who is the "victim?"

This is the Readers Digest version.


i read the long stream of semi-historical and somewhat coherent reasoning, but it's mostly not applicable. the historical context is something that we aren't talking about here, this is base theology. working from the context that this book is supposed to be the inerrant word of god and thus not subject to those things.


Historical context is something we were not talking about here??? Good Grief!! Zoooooom.!!! I reckon it went over my head...by light years. I am not the one using the time warp default to play through and make others attempt to begin from a position of "Guilty." You know ..just like Al and Jesse!!??
Are you a politician??

Politics ...you use a historical context and it is ok..someone else uses a historical context and it is not applicable. Hmmmm. Intresting political default.

NOw...Madness..back to the point I was making. Males usually perish before most females ..back in history and also today. Who is the lesser human here??

Madness ..be very careful what you think is oppression or even human.

Anyone else have a opinion on this??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



Whose theology? Mainstream theology?


You see, when you make a comment, such as you just made, you put the topic of theology in a box... Do you even know what the word theology means? It means the study of God... I am not trying to be condescending but your comments are becoming increasingly vitriolic and inaccurate in regards to my comments on almost every thread.







[edit on 19-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


ok, in this case theology would be something in the context of my question. the box is set up by the premise for the simple reason that we need to actually have a discussion. no box and we can talk about anything



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
is something good because god commands it, or does god command it because it's good?


SpeakerofTruth and Madness,

The "Box" used here is a placebo issue. A counterfit. It is also a question format very similar to what the Pharisees used to try to trip Him up.

You cannot from a human standpoint put the label of good or evil on diety. This is why it is a counterfit position. A placebo. It is obvious from the lines after the one quoted that it substitutes human reasoning and logic.

The two sentances attempting to frame the quote above are all human. Nothing religious about them. They are mens philosophy ..not Gods. It is rationalizing. Just as were doing the Pharisees. This is." Talmud. This is Eastern Philosophys.

This is that to which I was alluding in my first post on this thread page 1.

Notice the concept of could morality exist without God as it is inserted at the end of the first post by Madness.
Then contrast this concept with what I posted to someone called "Superevoman" on the thread here in Faith, Spirituallity and Theology under the heading of "Western Religion has killed more people than cancer.

Superecvoman uses the very same time warp technique so popular in thinking and philosophy similar to Madness.

Now notice the response ...that you dont have to go back in a historical time warp all that far to shoot holes in this type of statement.

In modern times less than 150 years ago...you have a clear record of millions upon millions killed by enlightened men schooled in the religion/philosophy of Karl Marx and Fredrick Engles. In Russia, IN the Orient under the Chinese and also in more recent times in Cambodia. This continues unto today in other nations but not on this scale.

By the way Madness..would the philosophy of Karl Marx and Fredrick Engles ..in recent times be considered opression and dehumanization of people? This is recent times and the bible was not allowed to be lived to its Godly fruitition in these nations mentioned..even unto today refering to China.

This technique is good philosophy...it is just junk against the time ruler or scale of history.

Once you understand this nonsense being used so effectively upon people who are easily sidetracked by such default placebos..you realize how little history or Bible both that Believers actually know.
I have often stated that there is such a level of ignorance about almost everything and anything in my Christian Bretheren...Both in History and in Bible knowlege.

This technique is exactly how many politicians work. They shuffle the shells around to get you to miss which shell the pea is under. The truth of thier technique is that the pea is not under any of the shells. This is also how politics often works. You are never to know the pea is not under any of the shells while they substitute a pre determined unbiblical reasoning as if it was holy due to its logic and reason of men. It is and can be no such thing next to the Soverignty of God. This is precisely why mens logic and reason must be substituted for the Holyness of God.
This is also the struggle recorded from the begining of mens records...in one format after another. How to substitute mens philosophy and religion for Gods Way. This is not God's Way.

As stated...most Christians are not aware of this technique and are easily sidetracked to debating placebos/counterfits.

Learn to spot the counterfit/counterfits. You will find yourself surrounded by them on all sides. Continually.

I know the name of the counterfitter ..by name.

Thanks,
Orangetom



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