Aliens Are Real-Naturally! So Why The Fuss And Skepticism About UFO’s?

reply to post by EBE154


But we should also beware of those who, maybe because of fear of being alone, try to see as proved something that is only a hypothesis.

Those people that grab every statistic, unproved theory or even just some text on a web page by someone they do not know as proof of the existence of intelligent extra-terrestrial life or even its presence here on Earth are the ones that make this topic one that many people consider best left alone.

The idea that it is a big universe, therefore it is arrogant to think we are the only intelligent life, quote, unquote is the most often expressed idea when talking about UFOs and alien life. Everyone says it, usually as a preamble to some strange unsubstantiated claim. Everyone has said it for over fifty years. Adamski said it. Fry said it. Howard Menger said it. And I'll bet over half the people on ATS have said it.

The funny thing is, every time someone says it, again, it's as if the speaker is telling us a profound truth no one else in the known universe has ever thought of before.

Well, the Drake Equation, which is a quantification of this idea by a member of the established scientific order, was formulated in 1960. No matter how you mess with the numbers, the idea is still that it's a big universe out there and there is probably life elsewhere. Every time somewhere else expresses the idea, they are essentially repeating a layman's version of the Drake Equation.

The idea that there is probably life 'out there' is not really the most compelling question. Given what we think we know about the nature of reality, including the built-in speed limit of the speed of light, the more important question is, if they are here, are they from out there; and if they are from out there, how did they manage to get here? There are a bunch of begged questions there!

All we can really do is use what we think we know to figure this stuff out. Some will say, 'well, the aliens (beg) from out there (beg) are millions of years more advanced than us (beg), therefore they have figured out how to circumvent the speed of light (beg) and that explains how they got here (beg).

We don't know any of that. If the theory of General Relativity is true as we know it, it doesn't matter how advanced they are, it's a built in law of the universe, period. Now I know as well as anyone that the theory of General Relativity might not be a complete explanation of reality. Indeed, it contradicts quantum mechanics, and BOTH theories have been experimentally verified. It's just that they can't both be right (that is, they cannot both present a complete explanation of reality), so we KNOW for sure that there is a 'greater' more all-encompassing theory out there. Is that String Theory? Well, maybe, but it has NOT been experimentally verified. Right now, it's just very fancy, very satisfying mathematics.

The point here is that to explain how they from out there got here can only be explained by speculation. There's nothing wrong with speculation as long as you keep in mind that is what it is: speculation. You can say, "Well, they use wormholes." (I wouldn't bet on that with any real money, folks) or "They are inter-dimensional." That's awfully compelling, but there's not a good theoretical understanding of that possiblility. The membranes of String Theory might be part of this, but oops! That has not been experimentally verified.

So right now, today, there are a lot of cool ideas floating around about how they from out there got here, but we simply do not have the tools, either theoretical or practical, for explaining how that could possibly happen. People who say otherwise are just guessing. All the skeptic is doing is pointing this out. The skeptic is saying, "How did they (who almost certainly exist given the Drake Equation) get from there, a really long ways away, to here (given this pesky speed of light limitation.) That's not 'being blind.' That's not 'having a closed mind.' It's just telling you that speculation does not prove anything. Speculation of what might be happening is not an explanation or what is happening.

Of course, this all begs the question that they are really from out there at all.



[edit on 10/27/2007 by schuyler]

Originally posted by Solarskye
But is there proof that we're not alone? There's an overwhelming amount of speculation but not one single solid evidence of alien life.

I agree, but think about this: can you prove that love exists?

Technically we cannot, but we know it's there. Pretty much the same thing with ET's(in my opinion).

Regardless of anyone elses thoughts. Aliens exist and they are everywhere. Only the most ignorant would say that the only Earth has life. Many love the idea that we are so unique that there can't possibly be anyone else out there on our level or above.

I always like to bring these numbers up.

Milky Way has 500 000 000 stars in it.

Let's say that at avarage a galaxy has 500 million stars in it.

Some say that there are about 100 billion galaxies in the universe.

Let's assume that the avarage number of planets around a star is 6

That makes up about 50000000000000000000 stars in the universe.
300000000000000000000 planets.

reply to post by GeeGee


now that is a pretty good argumentation (imo)! of course we will never be able to proof certain things until they are widely accepted by reality as we know it - but if we just leave our definition of reality behind for a second we will recognize that we know the answer (even to the question of an ET presence in outer space) and truth about all the things that we are discussing right now... simply take a deep breath and go into the depth of your soul... now ask yourself (without thinking about logic or personal interest) if we are alone in the universe... [i think we know the answer ]... if you believe in god or a higher entity things should become even more easy...

what i want to make clear is:

there 'MUST' be extraterrestrial beings / aliens because "somewhere in the back of your mind you have always known that there actually is a presence of other beings beside yourself" and this common fact is only suppressed by the boundaries of your own reality which is not (definitely not!) a highly advanced reality that let's us see / accept things that go beyond our mutual understanding... (just think of the reality we would have without technology and technological progress [...] and now think of the reality we will have 1 million years from now ~if still existing~)

Cheers!

reply to ArMaP:

i honestly belong to those people who want to believe that we are not alone but this does not automatically make me a negative factor when it comes to an indepth discussion of things like this... just think of all the people who believe in god without being able to prove his definite existence... would the world be the same without religion and certain laws it has created for mankind?! i do not think so...











[edit on 27-10-2007 by EBE154]

ATOMS

Everything is made of atoms! Even things we can't see.

Electrons moving - the number is mind blowing.

A higher power exists definitely!

"GOD"

Quinny

As i used to say, WE here in Earth, and all the life on it, are the best proof and evidence that other life must exist also elsewhere!
Sure this will not be a proof for the the ones that belive that we was created here by God, and only here!

[edit on 27-10-2007 by Umbra Sideralis]

I think this is a good topic since is does show one of the most commonly used thought processes for the existence of alien life. I've actually used this same argument on others myself.

Personally, I believe that there are aliens out there for many of the same reasons stated by the OP and others in this thread. The universe is just so vast that I would be sad if there were no other life or intelligent beings out there. It would make me question why there is so much space if it is all devoid of life other than our own rock. Is it all out there only for beauty? For us to puzzle over it's purpose? Or is it merely there to show us what eternity looks like? That to me seems highly unlikely and in the words of another poster, kinda wasteful.

It seems to me that if life sprang from our planet (our grain of sand on the beach so to speak) then it only seems fair that life could spring up on others as well. I like to think of the universe as a giant chaotic bringer of life and death. In essence I suppose you could say I think that the universe IS god. The beginning and the end, eternal, ect, ect...

At the same time, The odds that make it probable for alien life to exist also make the probability that any aliens have found our planet pretty small. If we picture all of the other solar systems that could exist and all of the planets out there that could support some type of life, how likely is it that even one of those alien races has advanced to the point of the high technology needed to travel great distances in space/time and then they just happen to stumble upon our exact location? And if they found us, would they even want to make contact? We would obviously be behind them technologically and by all rights we would probably have nothing to offer them other than allegiance or earthly materials.

I think that recently we have made the odds better with all of the crap we shoot out into space and with all of the radio, tv, and other signals emanating from our planet nowadays (though if we haven't breached our own galaxy yet the odds of anyone out there noticing are still pretty tiny).

Lets just hope if anything ever does show up it is friendly and we can communicate with it rather than shoot at it. I think so many of us hope and pray for contact, but the truth I see is that that contact could be our doom and not only if the aliens are hostile, but if we are hostile toward them out of fear and misunderstanding.

I've always been the glass is half empty type though so don't get too worried.

Imagine Earth was ONE grain of sand in all of Earth's collective sand mass. To find that exact grain of sand is, well, impossible. But I'm talking about an empty Earth (minimal to no sign of life). The chances for an advanced alien culture to find this grain of sand (Earth) would exponentially increase if a communicating, intelligent life form were to exist, even if its radio communication. Radio waves travel at the speed of light, and these Radio waves are escaping Earth at the speed of light, for about ONE HUNDRED YEARS and counting.

This grain of sand is a colossal grain now.

I'm gunna put this argument to bed right now. Aliens are blindingly real, and they're not all alien. They just don't want us to see... and seeing as how they outweigh us by millions of years of evolution, I don't think scientific evidence can catch up in time to give even your children's children's children's children's children evidence of their existence. The ones who are here don't want you to know there are others because they've got us right where they want us... and the reason they aren't landing on the White House lawn is because they are in danger, from the ones who enslave us AND from us because we're all running around in a stupid daze killing each other and kissing dead tree shavings. Let me clarify... by "the ones who enslave us", I do not mean the global elite, and I do not mean evil aliens from space.
Remember that Art Bell clip with the frantic guy on the phone sounding like he's about to cry, talking about the "aliens" being extradimensional beings ALREADY EXISTING on this planet, and then the power goes out and they lose the guy? Well... he said it, and I believe that was a real genuine caller, because he describes what I know also. Develop your intuitive senses, and you may not like what's around you, brothers and sisters.

The odds are, aliens are most likely real, you are right!
There are BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of stars and galaxies etc out there.
There must be aliens, and possibly an advanced life form, there is probably even some kind of small life form on mars, who knows.

BUT I do not think this proves that UFO's with aliens are here on earth, want to know why? well the exact reason you gave us! There are millions and millions of planets if not billions? out there, over the possibly infinite universe?

Thus if a alien race was more advance than us, and could travel many light years in minutes etc, they would have millions of planets to explore, 1 planet could take hundreds of years to explore and understand.

This therefore would make it less possible that an alien race would choose our planet, because they are so busy elsewhere. But it also still gives a possibility that they might find and choose our planet in the huge universe. Therefore I do not think this theory gives us proof that alien UFOs are most likely here, it only gives us a possibility.

[edit on 28-10-2007 by _Phoenix_]

No. Stop right now. Room for debate on the subject is over. Just stop and look around you and stop living in fear and thinking that thousands...actually MILLIONS of your fellow human beings are all lying about this or crazy. They aren't. To think that we're all crazy...all of us saying to you YES they are real...we're crazy, huh? That's an insult. Stop insulting people and start listening, for christ's sakes. You people go around and around in circles. No wonder nothing's getting done, because we're not even arguing about what to do, but instead we're arguing about the possibility of there even existing something that we should be doing something about, despite the testimony of thousands and thousands of people saying that there is something. This is insanity, and I swear to God, you skeptic self proclaimed scientists (even the ones with the degrees that make them know-it-alls) need to give up and admit you know nothing. Because hey look, neither do I, and I've seen the friggin crap. But I must be a crazy uneducated nerd who watches too many movies. That must be it.

Well heh I am a nerd... and if by education, you mean indoctrination, then yeah I'm a bit uneducated.

Originally posted by InSaneTK
I always like to bring these numbers up.
Milky Way has 500 000 000 stars in it.
Let's say that at avarage a galaxy has 500 million stars in it.
Some say that there are about 100 billion galaxies in the universe.
Let's assume that the avarage number of planets around a star is 6
That makes up about 50000000000000000000 stars in the universe.
300000000000000000000 planets.

Numbers alone don't mean anything, since we don't know how life comes about in the first place. If I have a box with a diamond in it, and I have no clue how that diamond got there, why should I assume that if I open a similar box (or a trillion billion similar boxes) I should naturally find another diamond in at least one of them? Why would you think diamonds will spontaneously appear in boxes if you have enough of them? I'm sure diamond miners would be interested in your theory.

The probability of a possibility is derived from and depends on the elemental constituents of its system. Since physics tells us that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then we must not deny that space and time can not be expanding. If we agree that space consists of a "fabric" or whatever you brilliant Earthlings have come to call it, then this fabric still must surely consist of energy. Light is a form of energy and since energy is eternal then light has existed eternally (or for our oh so brilliant narcissistic mathematicians and "optical" probability experts; at least for 15 billion years ). This light has had the time of eternity to spread throughout the cosmos and throughout "space". This energy can not be "expanding", only transmutating. There is no constriction bounding space, nor is there one bounding time, that which are interconnected. To say that there is, is pretty funny and leads to a "dead end" full of absence.

So as I started saying: the elemental constituents of this system are eternal or infinite; therefore all possibilities are probabilities and all probabilities are possibilities, and all probabilities and possibilities are, in fact, "true". Since space and time are eternal then we can rewind and fast forward forever, or we can travel anywhere and everywhere forever visiting an eternal amount of locations, if not technologically... then at least "logically" in our minds of our imagination. By default we are destined to find everything that we can imagine. Is it possible to not find something when searching on the basis of eternity? No. You will find everything, and too, limitation.

So, why argue about what is and is not when the presence of absence and nothing are literally factual, yet eternally of the imagination, and that which we are? Perhaps you need to slow your mind and understand a few things before you move forward. Perhaps slowing down to a complete stop is actually where we're already at. How can we argue when we can make sense of contradictions? Statically perpetual? Immeasurable presence of absence? Everything is bounded by nothing? Differences are what we have in common? How do I get through to you? There is so much more to offer, but such an immense communication barrier that you all seem to be immersed in. Is it the religion? Is it the "logic and philosophy" classes? Is it the governments? What is it? Why aren't these things taught to everybody? I don't understand this world and its self indulged delusions. I'm so very confused.

[edit on 28-10-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
So as I started saying: the elemental constituents of this system are eternal or infinite; therefore all possibilities are probabilities and all probabilities are possibilities, and all probabilities and possibilities are, in fact, "true".

What makes you think the constituents of the universe are infinte? After all, infinity is pretty big, and if infinity was full, then there wouldn't be any movement. No room. So I think, instead, that the constituents of the universe are limited, and so it follows that the probabilities are also not infinite. And that leaves plenty of room for the aliens NOT to exist.

You know, I bet they're having the same exact argument on another primitive planet right now.

Originally posted by Nohup
What makes you think the constituents of the universe are infinte?

Absence.

After all,

Energetically there is no afterall. In fact there is no beginning nor after, nor is there an all. Energy is eternal, energy is space and time; space and time are eternal. Eternal is not only a definition of time, it is also of space, since we know that "space and time" are "interconnected".

infinity is pretty big, and if infinity was full,

Infinity is neither big nor small. It is immeasurable. Infinity can also never be full nor empty, it simply is. A limited system can be full, such as a cup. Infinity is what the cup is of.

then there wouldn't be any movement. No room.

In a sense, there isn't. Everything is always changing/moving, thus it's attributes of constant change/movement tell us that in actuality it is never changing... it is always consisting of the same logical process; change. Some thing that will eternally be in motion will never change, it will always be that way. There are many more examples here. The only constant is consistent change, but nevertheless it is a constant, thus it is static.

What do you mean by no room? You are absence.

So I think, instead, that the constituents of the universe are limited, and so it follows that the probabilities are also not infinite. And that leaves plenty of room for the aliens NOT to exist.

Your mind is entitled to its opinionated limitations.

Dude seriously... why don't you listen to people who say they've experienced aliens? Normal, rational people saying "Yeah I've seen them."

Why are there people in this forum, so expert on these things, so smart, that can't even listen to people talking?

Look at me, I'm talking. I'm saying yeah they are real and they are here, and yet you ingore me, and yet you ignore lots of other users of this forum saying the same thing, and yet you ignore all the reports, and yet you ignore pretty much everything, other than your science textbooks, written by close-minded scientists on the payrolls of corporations. Burn those textbooks and stop regurgitating your professor's lectures, please.

We all know science is flawed. We all know our definitions of proof are flawed. To say that either one of those statements is false is to state that we know absolutely everything about the universe, and in whch case we would be God.

I’m not sure where this argument is going, but aliens are as real as you and me. Where is the proof? If aliens were thousand or millions of years more advanced than us, they could easily avoid detection from our primitive tech…There is as much proof for aliens as there is for bigfoot. Yes but….what about abduction claims,

youtube.com...
Australian women witnesses ufo landing,

youtube.com...
62 KIDS ENCOUNTER UFOS AND ALIENS BEINGS

oh….and my own…..
www.abovetopsecret.com...