Socialist healthcare being demonised in the US?

Hey coper, I thought you were in America.


ANyways, Democracy served well, untill we became very busy bees.
We have no time for protests or anything meaningful down the road.
Our sight is limited to our green lawn and the car in our driveway.

reply to post by Copernicus


Based on the band "Refused" being from Sweden is reason enough to end up there in my travels. Gotta' couch I can crash on?

reply to post by Copernicus


Based on the band "Refused" being from Sweden is reason enough to end up there in my travels. Gotta' couch I can crash on?

reply to post by SKunkyCharms


Nope, but I am known for criticizing your current government and media system a lot still...maybe its easier for me to see the things that are wrong from the "outside".

Im convinced the US could become the greatest country in the world if it started taking care of people, so its frustrating to see the way its going now.


[edit on 25-10-2007 by Copernicus]

Good post Copernicus. Unfortunately, I think it's a pretty tough problem. I am a US citizen, born and raised in the US. Now, I spend about 1/2 time in Europe and 1/2 time in the US.

I've had quite a bit of experience with the US medical system and have a number of friends who are doctors there as well. I've also had a lot of experience working very closely with the medical system here (country witheld, but not as good as Sweden's medical system).

A few years back, my father-in-law cracked his skull here and was checked into a military hospital for brain surgery (he was career military before retirement). After surgery, they decided to transfer him to a civilian hospital in a manner that was technically not legal, with the justification that his geographic address mandated the transfer. In fact, he was supposed to have been recovering well from surgery when he was transferred, but somehow they managed to spill hot tea on him just prior to the transfer request, leaving 2nd degree burns on his chest and face. Due to additional events prior to the transfer, including his burns, he was upset, so they sedated him. When he arrived at the civilian hospital, they sedated him again heavily enough that they only figured out he had just had a major stroke and was in a coma after he didn't wake up for 2 days. They moved him to an intensive care ward where due to the lack of care, he got serious bedsores in a matter of days. My wife and I heard about this and immediately flew from the US to help in any way possible.

Having done a number of international negotiations in the past, I figured the first step was to understand the rules, which I quickly learned. We had basically none of the rights that I was used to in the US, and there was no material recourse for the problems that had occurred. Doctors at the civilian hospital refused to provide his medical records to us and told us matter-of-factly that he would be paralyzed for life and likely a vegetable as well.

We refused to accept this and looked for a better hospital that we might be able to move him to. We contacted doctors at the best hospital in the country and pleaded with them to help us get him the care he needed and a second opinion. After multiple days of discussion and being rejected, we arranged a personal meeting with the head of neurology for the hospital we wanted him transferred to. We had no other option but to appeal to his humanity and explain the situation as clearly and pointedly as we could.

As it turned out, the hospital that my father-in-law was in had a bad reputation, not well known outside of medical circles (two of our relatives have died there in the past). After hearing our story, the head of neurology offered us a bed in their standard care ward, which we believed would give him a better chance than the "intensive care" ward he was in at the other hospital. He gave us explicit instructions on how to initiate a transfer that included a political, friendly, non-threatening approach to the old hospital. Once he was transferred, they realized the severity of the situation. He was dehydrated with nosocomial (hospital induced) infections as well, so they immediately moved him to intensive care. Within 3 weeks, he took his first step, and he is now able to live self-sufficiently at home, communicate both in his native language and retaining the English he learned, and unless you knew what happened, you would not know that he had had a stroke if you just met him. I am quite sure that if we left him in the previous hospital, he would be dead.

Since that time, he has pursued legal action against both the first military hospital and the civilian hospital he was originally transferred to. Unlike in the US, if he wins, the best he can hope for, and in fact what he really wants most, is an apology and maybe $1000 or $2000.

I realize that seems like a story extolling the virtues of the US medical system over socialized medicine, but i'll continue...

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by Copernicus

 

Based on the band "Refused" being from Sweden is reason enough to end up there in my travels. Gotta' couch I can crash on?

Well, let me know when you are planning on coming to Sweden and I might be able to let you stay for a couple of nights. Im probably going to be working during the weekdays though, unless you come by during the 5 week vacation time in the summer.

Thats another thing that seems wrong with the US... you dont have 5 weeks of payed vacation per year do you? Most countries in Europe does.


[edit on 25-10-2007 by Copernicus]

Throughout the process, I was consulting with a friend of mine in the US who was previously a practicing brain surgeon. Ironically, she had to stop practicing when she married a high net worth individual because of the prohibitive cost of malpractice insurance required to adequately protect their combined assets. We also experienced some interesting side-effects of a system where patients don't have the same level of recourse as in the US (which I think in some cases is ridiculous in its generosity towards "nuisance suits").

I found that in a system with socialized rules and little recourse, the common trend seems to be towards poor patient care and respect. Doctors feel omnipotent and the bad ones become much worse. Many are disrespectful towards patients and their families. At the same time, I experienced an unexpected benefit from the system when dealing with conscientious, high-integrity doctors, they admitted their mistakes. In two cases, they admitted mistakes that allowed us to arrive at courses of treatment that made all the difference in his recovery. In the US, I don't believe that most, even otherwise high-integrity physicians, would admit anything that could risk malpractice liability, let alone a personal mistake. Of course, all humans make mistakes, and if the goal is the best care, learning about them immediately can make all the difference in the world.

So now we're using the system here at times and finding that you can get good care in this socialized model. Unfortunately, the haves vs. have-nots division relative to care seems more related to your geographic location than your ability to pay. In fact, in the official model, you cannot really pay-up for better care, but people still do. There are "loopholes" that enable people to get around the system by buying special membership cards to private facilities. Unfortunately, the private facilities are less regulated and have been found at times to have other forms of serious malpractice on a regular basis.

Bottom line is that I believe there are pros and cons to both systems. The US system seems seriously compromised by ridiculous malpractice cases and lacking any safety net for a great number of people, potentially serving as a breeding ground for new, drug resistant diseases. At the same time, I am convinced that a fully socialized medical system will tend to create other problems that it could be argued are just as serious. As I understand it, Sweden does pretty well, but I'm not sure that the reason is as simple as socialized vs. privatized.

In fact, IMO some kind of system where litigation is kept in check to some degree (I'm not a big fan of tort reform, but something needs to be done to prevent nuisance suits from compromising the system) and there is a safety net for people that provides access to health care for the general population would be near ideal. In addition, I cannot understate the potential benefits of a system that would enable doctors to admit their honest mistakes without fear of career-ending lawsuits, to the benefit of the patient.

I don't have the answer, but I realize that the US system is an absolute mess for the average citizen and fantastic for upper middle class and above. It also seems that the fully socialized systems I am aware of have their serious downsides. Generally, I believe the motivation against socializing any part of the US system or even mandating insurance coverage opportunities without socialization has more to do with profits than foresight or an interest in creating a better system. I also believe that most people with no connection to the profit centers but are adamantly opposed to a real overhaul have been scared into opposition by simplistic views of stories like the one I present above.

If we could get smart people in a government "by the people, for the people" honestly working in the interest of citizens, I suspect there's a great system to be found somewhere between the two extremes.

You guys are forgetting the biggest factor.

Look at the population of Malta, Canada, Sweden, etc and then look at the population of the United States. Need I say more?

reply to post by lifestudent


Good posts.

Yes, I agree that its probably not the health care system that makes Sweden work as a country. I think its a combination of a lot of factors, but in general, I think that when people feel that they are safe and will be taken care of when they need it, they are generally also less likely to commit violent crimes.

If I worked in America, in a high stress society where I hardly ever get any money left over and I feel that corporations everywhere are just out to screw me, I would most likely feel very depressed and angry as well. And I most certainly wouldnt care if my country went to bomb Iran.. I wouldnt have the time or energy to look into the reasons, and I would likely not care about the Iranians when my own life was so messed up. You need to feel good about yourself before you can care about others.

We have had the assassination of Olof Palme and the murder of Anna Lindh in my country. Both of those events caused great sadness, but instead of blaming the country where the guy was from (in the Lindh case), we tried to change our psychiatric system so it would better take care of people. We didnt really succeed in my opinion, but I think its the right place to start.

If you want a less violent society, you really do need to care for people. Its very essential.

reply to post by ChrisF231


I have thought about this, but yes, you need to say more.

I dont see why the US couldnt have national reforms that would start taking care of people. The size of a country isnt really a problem... I mean, it costs more money, but you also have more people paying taxes, so the cost per person should be the same as in some other country.

The US is a very rich country, but you seem to spend all that money on the war machine instead of improving the country and the happiness of people. Also people seem to fear their government, which is when a democracy turns into a tyranny.


[edit on 25-10-2007 by Copernicus]

If you want a less violent society, you really do need to care for people. Its very essential.

I completely agree with you and the other points you make in that post. Sometimes the right solutions require a little deeper thought than "might makes right".

I try to help my kids understand that by helping each other, they often end up better off themselves. It would be great to see this attitude more pervasive among us jaded adults as well.

For some reason, it seems very unpopular these days to talk about the government helping disadvantaged people in any way in the US, whether by job training/re-training, health care or otherwise. Perhaps so many people are so stressed trying to make ends meet that the last thing they would want to do is put energy into helping someone they don't personally know, even if it might create a safer more positive environment for everyone.

reply to post by lifestudent


Yes, I think you are spot on there. A person who is under constant pressure to just get by will not want to help anyone but himself. We are all like that, in any country, so its more a question of basic psychology and not nationality. Humans are not meant to live their lifes in fear and anger...it makes me sad to see that many are.

It makes me angry to see that these feelings are actually artificially created by some media in the US... like Fox News. Trying to keep people afraid of the world, apathetic, tired... because that makes them good consumers and easy to control because they just dont care about the world when their own world is on the verge of crashing down on them and they are struggling to just get by.

It doesnt exactly help that you dont seem to have much job security in the US either. The whole society seems to be based on fear instead of helping people. Fear of losing your job, fear of speaking out, fear of stepping out of line...

The French are fantastic at not taking crap from their government. They have mass demonstrations, stopping traffic for days, when they are not happy about something. The French are very much NOT apathetic and its very nice to see demonstrations making a huge difference in their society..

They are not afraid of their government. Thats the difference really. The US have far worse problems than what the French does, but people in the US often feel its meaningless to demonstrate.


[edit on 25-10-2007 by Copernicus]

Here's my viewpoint as a member of the middle class in America. I was raised to believe, and I still believe, that the great thing about America is that you work for everything you get. There is a certain amount of pride at the end of the day when I pull into my driveway knowing that my hard work has resulted in the situation my family is in today. I work 50 hours a week at a high stress job, I spend 5 or so hours a week studying to keep on top of current tech so I can excel at my job, and I spend every spare minute not doing these things living my life to it's fullest. Money is tight, but not tight enough that I can't drop a little into enjoying life. This, I think, is the average life of a middle classer in America.

What some of you europeans and others' don't understand is that we have an entire class of people in the US who have been government supported for several generations. A lot of these people are able bodied, but do nothing except for relax all day on government money while the rest of us work hard and pay high taxes to support their living. Honestly, you really can't blame them because they likely grew up in a household that was supported by the government and it's all they know. Even many of those who live in this county don't realize the extent of the problem. After college I worked construction and travelled all over the area, often into lower income areas. What I saw was house after house in these areas of town with 20 and 30 something people sitting on the front porch all day drinking alcohol. In one case, a man asked my boss if he had any work. My boss said possibly and told him how much the job paid. The man instantly asked if it was "under the table" (this means paid cash with no tax records for those of you who might not know this term). When he was told no, he refused the job and said "Job's not for me then! Would mess up my government check!" and walked away.

Every time I think about it, I get furious. I'm busting my butt 50 hours a week to have what I have and these people live almost as well off as me and they do absolutely nothing all day. THIS is the current situation in America. THIS helps me form my opinions on healthcare as well. Every thing the government touches turns to excrement. They spend three times as much money as a private sector company would to do the same job. Then it's the matter of who pays for this program? Those of us who work and pay taxes pay for the program, so here I am supporting a bunch of people too lazy to work again.

I know this doesn't apply to everybody without healthcare. I have no problem with helping somebody who needs it. If you just got laid off and have no health insurance, I'd be happy if the government propped you up for 6-12 months. However, if you can't find some way to earn your keep after 12 months, you deserve to be cut off. If you're disabled you fall into the same boat. I don't expect somebody with a devastating injury to go out and work 40 hours a week and be in pain. What disgusts me is the amount of people in this country that are just lazy and don't want to work and are encouraged to do so by current government programs.

Also kind of have to wonder why if the US health care system is so bad and the nationalized ones are so good that we have those with the means coming here for their healthcare despite the fact that it's free at home. Did you know that the average Canadian waits 17 weeks for a referral to a specialist?? Funny, I can see one the same day or just skip my general doctor and go straight to the specialist because my insurance allows it. Did you know that Canadians spend $1 Billion a year on American healthcare??

Did you know that in Britain, the waiting lists are so long for open heart surgery that they've taken to denying smokers? If you smoke and need heart surgery, you better fly to America or you're going to die. Did you know that hip and knee replacements are denied to overweight patients in Britain?? Guess you're going to be crippled for the rest of your life. Did you that if you're over 80 in Britain and you have a stroke you're written off and not treated?

Think I'll stick with what we have now, thanks.

Since our nation best middle class jobs has been outsourced the service jobs that are replacing them are not even enough to support private health care.

Privatization in American, outsourcing and greed is making a new generation of American work force that can barely make ends meet.

Sad but true.

Originally posted by marg6043
Since our nation best middle class jobs has been outsourced the service jobs that are replacing them are not even enough to support private health care.

Privatization in American, outsourcing and greed is making a new generation of American work force that can barely make ends meet.

Sad but true.

I think that situation is going to fix itself as the dollar drops into the crapper. At the rate we're going it's going to be cheaper to bring the jobs back than keeping them overseas.

reply to post by BlueTriangle


Hi BlueTriangle,
Well reasoned post and clearly this touches a cord with you. In fact it does with me as well because I've heard similar arguments from quite a few people in the past. I agree that people should not

do nothing except for relax all day on government money while the rest of us work hard and pay high taxes to support their living

but I take issue that that is the actual problem we've got. It's an easy target because no hard working person would agree that people should support that behavior.

I grew up with a single mom who was on welfare, using foodstamps, and getting help/clothes from friends while training with government aid so she could provide us with a decent life. Once she finished her training, she got off of welfare and food stamps, permanently. We learned how to get by on the minimum, and we learned an incredibly strong work ethic as well. Living that way was no picnic and not something that I believe people would choose if given reasonable options.

Now, every one of my siblings has a good job, works hard, pays taxes, and has education ranging from a few years of college to PHD. I've personally had years where I paid high 6 figures in income tax, and I haven't complained at all. At the same time, I believe we miss the bigger picture when we say "I've worked hard for mine, and if you don't have health insurance, not my problem." IMO, the key to my own family getting out of our situation back then was the availability of job training (those programs no longer exist), the combination of government supported health care, and real help to get people back into the work force.

Today, the programs available for struggling families and health care for children are completely and utterly broken. After falling, for whatever reason, it's incredibly hard for people to get back up. I'm sure there are some people so strung out that they are content to abuse the system and live in squalor, but what about the people whose skills are no longer relevant yet desperately seek the pride you describe? What about the children who are sick or injured and not able to get medical care? What about the people who don't get medical care, contract MRSA or some other form of drug resistant disease such as the now growing number of cases of Tuberculosis caused by inadequate health care and systemic failure to treat? If you can't see a reason to help them, what about when they touch or cough on the upper middle class kids?

I believe the system is so broken that once someone truly falls enough to need it, they are unlikely to find a way out. That's what needs to be fixed. Regardless, health care for the needy helps all of society. We who have built our nest eggs and fortunes with our own sweat and blood benefit when people have opportunities to improve their lot in life, get an education, contribute to society, and make the US a better, more competitive country on the world stage. Health care, like food, is a necessity, not something people can relax on.

I personally believe that a reason we have as much abuse of the other systems (there is no decent health care safety net to abuse) as we do today is because once someone ends up using them, they are basically in a vicious cycle or probably really didn't "need".

On the topic of health care alone, we have some great medical institutions as well as very convenient health care for those who can afford it. I suspect we also have incredible waste in the system when people win huge judgements for minor mistakes or circumstances that should really be "no fault". Most importantly, regardless of the way we've greedily dismantled programs that have proven helpful to our society, we have serious and growing problems in the US in the way we provide (or don't) health care for our most needy, especially children living in poverty.

[edit on 25-10-2007 by lifestudent]

The population size is always brought up when talking about socialized healthcare in the US. "We cant support it" "Itll cost too much" Ect. Well I say US citizens CAN support it. How you ask? Change the way the population is taxed.

Tax big businesses the way the should be, end corporate welfarism.
End "guarenteed loans" End business subsidies.
Tax those damn evangelical churches and other major organized religions, make them pay their fare share on their immense holdings.
Cut the secret budget of the CIA (Im no expert, but im pretty sure the secret budget of the CIA is in violation of the consitution)
Cut the budget of the Pentagon/DoD
Stop handing out massive research grants
Stop handing over perfectly solvent industries to private hands and capital (Nuclear industry anyone?)

Serious, what is needed in the US is a complete overhaul of the way the wealth is distributed.

Unlike Canada, Americans value America's status as a world power and we wish to keep it that way. We dont wish to have a military or intelligence apparatus on par with any random 3rd world nation.



[edit on 25-10-2007 by ChrisF231]

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Unlike Canada, Americans value America's status as a world power and we wish to keep it that way. We dont wish to have a military or intelligence apparatus on par with any random 3rd world nation.

Why would cutting the budgets of those organizations make you equal to a thrid world country (in power status) The US accounts for almost half of the worlds spending on military might. Your telling me every dollar is needed to defend US interests?

Why not make it so the CIA non longer destabilizes whole regions and just have them focus on intellegence gathering?

You can be a world power without being an imperialist power.



Edit to add: Besides, cutting spending on Clandestine operations and Military procurement is only one part of my suggestions. What about cutting corprate welfarism? Or forcing the weapons manufacturing industry to pick up their own tabs for R&D?

When the desires of the corporations outweigh the needs of the people, its time for a change.


[edit on 25-10-2007 by InSpiteOf]

I have been to a DMV lately... I do not want nor trust my Government to take care of me. The Government should be the laste group we would want to run health care.

What happen to our Nation where we want Government to be our daddy? Instead of helping ourselves we expect them to save us.