First Moon Picture from Japanese Orbiter, page 5
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reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 10:39 AM by WorldShadow
Originally posted by NJ Mooch
I'm more interested in the small bits of data that Zorgon listed under each pic.

First pic was taken around 2:50 @ 1500km.

Second pic was taken around 3:00 @ 1200 km.

Third pic was taken around 3:10 @ 800 km.

So in the short amount of time between pics you are going to tell me that this orbiter was able to reduce its altitude 186 miles in 10 minutes then drop another 248 miles of altitude in the next 10 minutes?

They said it has orbit correction maneuver time and it is currently in that stage since it just released the relay satellite.

Is this normal for orbiters to reduce altitude that fast? Why did it drop more altitude during the second ten minutes? Shouldn't it drop more altitude at earlier times then gradually slow down as it approaches it's required orbit altitude?


Good observation there nj mooch. It could be from moon mascons or mass concentrations in an area the craft is orbiting on the far side. There was found to be more area of mascons on the far side than our side of the moon. Curious as to why that is, but that is what is reported.

Mascons are positive gravitational anomalies due to crust difference of the moon. In other words, some spots on the moon have more gravity than other areas. I would venture a guess this could have an effect on the craft as you observed the approach time since it was found to cause earlier space craft to dip to-wards the moon surface as they orbited over the anomalies.



reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 10:43 AM by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by WorldShadow



That is interesting. It would seem that EM power would be a more likely candidate that gravitational power (or, electrogravitics, if you will). Crustal thickness would seem to need to have a very large degree of disparity relative to locale to create such drastic interactions, would it not?


reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 10:51 AM by yahn goodey
reply to post by scepticsRus



i dont doubt there will be pictures that are let out for public consumption and then there will be pictures kept back for "scientific" evaluation that we might never ever be allowed to see.


reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 12:05 PM by WorldShadow
Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to
post by WorldShadow



That is interesting. It would seem that EM power would be a more likely candidate that gravitational power (or, electrogravitics, if you will). Crustal thickness would seem to need to have a very large degree of disparity relative to locale to create such drastic interactions, would it not?


The jaxa selene probe sent has a function to deploy the two micro satellites, Relay Satellite (Rstar) and VRAD Satellite (Vstar). These satellites are designed to measure the lunar gravitational field. Now thats interesting. Jaxa quote "the Rstar and Vstar satellites will be exclusively used for gravitational-field observation".

Perhaps the near side is hollowed out in certain areas after all. and the dark surrounding debris field is the Oceanus Procellarum where apollo 12 landed. Just my opinion.........



reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 02:56 PM by scepticsRus
reply to post by yahn goodey



I hope we get to see them all goodey, lets face it, there isnt any reason NOT to show the ones that are scientific unless there IS something to hide.

But i guess time will tell



reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 06:02 PM by NJ Mooch
reply to post by zorgon



So the info Zorgon posted states that an orbiter at 100km will eventually crash into the surface. So why is the Selene orbiter getting ready to go into a 100km circular orbit? Did they not get the memo from JPL or NASA? This mission is supposed to last one year, so how can the Japanese maintain a 100km circular orbit for that long?

Maybe the 2 birds it let go are there to make sure what the gravity is so Selene can stay far enough away so it doesn't crash. This is a primary reason to have them and a secondary reason would be for future mission gravity mapping. This idea isn't listed on the Jaxa site anywhere but it makes sense to me. We won't know if this is the case unless they release the true final orbit altitude. Maybe they will also list the speed but i'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

I'm going to guess that speed will keep it in a circular orbit at 100km but i'm not an expert in this area. Can someone use a formula with the weight of the orbiter that is listed against an orbit @ 100km to figure out how fast it has to go with 1/6 Earth gravity? Can you figure out the speed for 2/3 Earth gravity as well? I cannot find any speed info on this orbiter, so is that info classified? If it is not available I have to ask why not? Would that small bit of info show what the real gravity of the Moon is? I hope you see what this can lead to since there might be another number that comes up.

Bottom line is a 100km orbit has already proven to be fatal. Unless Selene can adjust itself for an entire year it will crash based on this, so that makes me wonder if the year long mission will require constant maneuvers that will eat up power. That is negated by the Jaxa site since it says that the maneuver stage is going on right now, and it doesn't list any further maneuvers. Does it even have the ability to alter its orbit after the current maneuver stage?

Is the info posted on the Jaza site legit? How fast would this orbiter have to go to stay in a 100km circular orbit? Do they post speed info anywhere?

This is something that I was wondering about and i'm glad my post made waves. I also use open source info on this mission so i'm still able to discuss it. You'll figure out if that changes when I stop posting.



reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 06:02 PM by sherpa
reply to post by johnlear



Well I would call that a comprehensive type history.

I am quite chuffed I share at least 1 maybe 2 types there, I did all my ab initio training in a K13 and have flown a Blanik off the wire but only P2 though as it was a site I was visiting, actually I am making an assumption here that at least one of those Blanik types is a sailplane I am not familiar with the model numbers.

Other interesting types I recognise is a Connie and a Tri-motor talk about varied, I think I am going to have to look some of the others up.


reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 06:59 PM by NJ Mooch
reply to post by ArMaP



I used these 2 sites to figure out some numbers.

home.att.net...
This got me the orbital velocity of 1.634 km/s

www.convert-me.com...
This converted it into 3654 mph

So if there is another speed listed that is slower there will be a problem for Selene. This can only be discussed if Jaxa lists the speed info. I cannot find it.

Is there a way to find out the speeds used for the info Zorgon posted? That way we can check to see if that info is reliable.


reply posted on 15-10-2007 @ 07:00 PM by sherpa
reply to post by NJ Mooch



As far as I can see the bottom line is fuel, when that runs out then it will probably be another heritage site on the moon.

Rstar and Vrad I can't see how they are going to last for long though as I could not see any propulsion systems on them.
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