Was Jesus Crucifixion karmic justice for the genocide committed by God?

Many Christians believe that Jesus was God incarnate or God in the flesh of the old testament God in the Bible.

Given the fact that the God in the old testament either directly or indirectly killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent men, women and children according to Biblical passages such as these.

I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'
Ezek. 20:26

But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the Tent of Meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the LORD appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the Tent of Meeting, 44 and the LORD said to Moses, 45 "Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once." And they fell facedown.

Then Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put incense in it, along with fire from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the LORD; the plague has started." 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah. Numbers 16:42-49

And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter. 1 Sam.6:19

These are just a few of many more examples in the Bible where God killed innocent men, women and children for disobeying Gods instructions.

Now the Bible gives many examples of Karma without directly calling it Karma.

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. Job 4:8

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

Karma

the cosmic principle according to which each person is rewarded or punished in one incarnation according to that person's deeds in the previous incarnation.

dictionary.reference.com...

So if Jesus is God incarnate would not his Crucifixion be the result of the universal law of karma do to the fact that the wrath of God killed so many innocent people?



[edit on 9-10-2007 by etshrtslr]

No, because Jesus is an astrological metaphor.

You on the other hand are mixing your metaphors. You ask if it's karma, but karma is not a Christian, Islamic or Jewish ideology, so if you are presuming that Yahweh and Jesus are real, then you shouldn't be presuming that karma is also, since it's a concept outside of Old Testament lore, dig?

[edit on 9-10-2007 by VelvetSplash]

Well, being someone who views Jesus as the SON of God, I really don't think what you suggest is correct. However, I am sure that you know my view of the OT... I sort of have a "bah" opinion about it in relation to what GOD is truly like.

I have often felt like people used the "anger of God," as a crutch to justify their own actions. You know, the whole, "God was angry at the Egyptians, so we went and killed three villages of them," mentality. It made them feel better about what they did, I suppose.

However, Jesus pretty much set the record straight with his, "Love your enemy," teaching.

reply to post by VelvetSplash


Christianity does not call it karma but if you read the passage I posted in my OP how can you say that "you shall reap what you sow" and "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword".

If it looks like a duck....well you get the point its not the name its called its the meaning and intent of what is being said.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


SOT,

I feel I know what your thoughts are on the OT God and I think mine are the same.

Part of the point I was trying to illustrate is that given the Christian belief that Jesus is God incarnate of the old testament then that essentially makes Jesus a bi polar homicidal maniac incarnate.

If Jesus is not God incarnate from the OT then that removes one of the fundamental underpinnings of Christianity and if thats the case then Christianity as a religion needs to be totally reevaluated.

Etshrtslr, I understand where you are coming from. Before anyone criticizes you, I also understand that you are not saying any of that is fact, you are just wanting to know if it is fact, how do they answer your question.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


SOT,

First off if Jesus is God incarnate of the OT then my OP premise should have happened and would have been justifiable IMHO.

If we both think the God of the OT cannot be the God of the NT then as I said before Christianity needs to completely reevaluate itself given the dichotomies I have outlined in my previous post.

It is up to those that believe that Jesus is the God incarnate of the OT to resolve these dichotomies, I for one cannot imagine how this can happen.

There are many Christians that DON'T believe in the Trinity, thus Jesus is the "Son of God" not God himself. That aside, Jesus was the "lamb", the perfect sacrifice for the perfect life lost, Adam. Not karma but an equal payment for sin.

reply to post by etshrtslr


This is truly an interesting angle and one that I hadn’t made the cross-connection to.
It made me think, especially about the part regarding karma as a universal law (like gravity I suppose).
Wouldn’t it be ironic if God himself had condemned His chosen people to an almost eternal cycle of restitution for acts He commanded?
The Bible does allude to this: “both your sins and the sins of your fathers," says the Lord. "Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains and defied me on the hills, I will measure into their laps the full payment for their former deeds." Isaiah 65:7
Unfortunately, I don’t think this argument will carry much weight against a fundamentalist, as they will immediately dismiss any reference to “karma” as a conception of the Devil. Again, Thanks for the post, it made me think in new directions!

God is nature. There are laws in nature including everything, and if man goes agaisnt those laws, man in "punished".

I do believe that massive destructive technology existed in biblical days. When people were wiped out, is was because they chose to explore it.

If we all die in a nuclear war, thousands of years later when man crawls out of the ruins on this planet, they will use a metaphor of man going agaisnt the laws of nature (or God) and destroying itself (or God destroying it, same thing).

Also, when massive amounts of people die, that massive amount of energy is placed elsewhere in the universe. Since in biblical days, there were less people on this planet, each being has more universal energy within them. Thats why people could live longer, and be more in touch with the Universe.

Christ dying was in fact him sacrificing his large amount of energy, back to God and back to humanity. Every few thousand years, humanity will reach a peak in decline of personal energy. Then humanity resets. When it resets, there will always be the presence of a "Christ" to reset it and take the blame.

This is just something I have thought about alot recently.

[edit on 9-10-2007 by tobiascore]

reply to post by passenger


Fundamentalist Christians will disregard any argument that challenges their beliefs regardless of how logical they are or how much evidence you can provide to the contrary.

Newton's Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

www.glenbrook.k12.il.us...

Newton's third law is at the heart of the definition of Karma even though Karma was understood by the more enlightened thousands of year before Newton.




[edit on 9-10-2007 by etshrtslr]

Interesting speculation.

One thing, though - the Canaanites and Amorites are also Semitic peoples; to say that the early Israelites committed genocide against these peoples really doesn't make sense, since the Israelites are also Semites.

Here is another, alternative speculation related to genocide, karma, and the crucifixion of Jesus the Nazorite: the holocaust.

Here is are some excerpts from a reading by Edgar Cayce, given on November 4, 1933, readng #3976-13.

The persons requesting the reading were listed as:
Edgar Cayce; Hugh Lynn Cayce, Conductor; Gladys Davis, Steno. Helene, Ernest, Della, Robert, Margret & Lilian Zentgraf; Henry G. Otto; Elsie & Fritz Kortenbeutel; Anna & Elsa Grothusen; Clara & Charlotte Palmedo; Mrs. John Detjens; Mrs. Anita Ostwald; Mrs. Thoemen; Mrs. Henry A. Ahrens; Mrs. D. Steengrafe; Mrs. Herman Kind; Mrs. E. Eisele; Mrs. P. A. Drucklieb; A. Leunis; F. Ficke; and others.

Here is the question that started the reading, given by the requesting group:

You will have before you the political situation that exists in Germany proper today, analyzing the policies of the present ruler; and give that which will be helpful and instructive to those present; answering questions.

Some general information was given, addressing the unfairness of the treaty of Versailles and the potential benefits to the people of Germany under Hitler’s leadership.

Then, the next question and answer given was:

8. (Q) Analyze Hitler's attitude towards the Jews.
(A) When the CHARACTER of those that have received, in a manner, their dictations - or the dictates of the activity of the director in affairs - is considered, then it will be understood how that this is but that diction which was given of old; and how that those peoples though they WERE called - have wandered far afield, and their rebelliousness and their seeking into the affairs of OTHERS has rather brought THEM into THEIR present position. Read they not that which has been given? "When ye forsake my ways ye shall be scattered, ye shall be without those things that would bring ye into the knowledge - until that time is fulfilled."

Hence the attitude that is assumed is rather a fulfillment of that prophecy that has been made, and is the beginning of the return that must come throughout the earth.

The ‘fulfillment of that prophecy that has been made’ is a reference to Deuteronomy chapter 31.*

13. (Q) Is Hitler psychically led?
(A) Psychically led; for the understanding of psychic is that the relationships between the mental activities and the source and the spiritual influences are being directed, or ARE directing, the physical activities of the body. Hence it may be said that he is psychically led, for he is called for a purpose - as has been given; not only in the affairs of a nation, but as in the affairs of the world. And he stands much in the position as did Jehu, as regards that people that THINK themselves oppressed.

14. (Q) Why is it that apparently Hitler is making a mistake in initiating policies that seem to be antagonizing the world?
(A) Because the world has as yet not understood wholly Hitler's policies. For, these are initiated rather from the spiritual source; and the WORLD is very MATERIAL-minded, and oft understands little of spiritual direction or dictation. But they must come to understand, unless there is more injection of the imperialistic influences that have - to be sure - been directing their influences towards being in the directing of the policies. Yet these, as yet, have not directed the main policies of Hitler.

One more:

19. (Q) Will Hitler's policies tend to lead toward war?
(A) Anything else; if the policies are adhered to. THIS is propaganda!

*Now, the following is in reference to what I said after quoting question #8. It is from reading #257-211, requested by a 46 year old male who gave his occupation as Sales Manage and his religion as ‘Hebrew.’ The date of the reading is September 25, 1939.

11. (Q) For what real purpose is the present war?
(A) Read in Daniel, the last two chapters, and see; also the 31st of Deuteronomy - and we will see.

Now, if we look to those bible passages, it takes on deeper meaning.

Deuteronomy 31

Especially the following:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
~Deuteronomy 31:16-18

In the preceding chapter, Moses tells the Israelites that they have a choice between a blessing or a curse.

Originally posted by intrepid
That aside, Jesus was the "lamb", the perfect sacrifice for the perfect life lost, Adam. Not karma but an equal payment for sin.

That my friend is the definition of karma.

For every cause there is an effect.

For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction.

Originally posted by tobiascore
I do believe that massive destructive technology existed in biblical days. When people were wiped out, is was because they chose to explore it.

I don't think it is about exploration but rather about exploitation. When ANYTHING mankind commands is used for any purpose that harms or defeats the spirits of other men, it will not be allowed to prosper.

The underlying truth of the cosmos is UNITY...everything is connected, whether it is understood, recognized, or acknowledged. And the only way to succeed is through unselfish motivations.

Because I generally agree with what you are saying; I, myself, have pondered such things to no end. But how can technology, in and of itself, be either bad or good? It is not a moral/ethical entity but rather a product of mind and of thought leading to physical manifestation in our world. It can either benefit or it can cause harm - the very same technology can do either, in most cases. It is how man applies it that makes the difference.

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Newton's Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
www.glenbrook.k12.il.us...
Newton's third law is at the heart of the definition of Karma even though Karma was understood by the more enlightened thousands of year before Newton.
[edit on 9-10-2007 by etshrtslr]

Ok, then. I’d like to put you on the spot here. Is there some Biblical scripture that would tie this all together? That is, something that would state, emphatically or implied, that these laws, regardless of the Will of God, are somehow the real overarching rule of the Universe?
If you could find something it would really be of interest because it would lead to the conclusion that God was, in effect, subject and bound by the rules He created.
Sort of like a moralistic Frankenstein’s monster that turns upon even it’s Creator.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Interesting speculation.

One thing, though - the Canaanites and Amorites are also Semitic peoples; to say that the early Israelites committed genocide against these peoples really doesn't make sense, since the Israelites are also Semites.

Thank you for your post.

Im saying God committed the genocide.

In addition to the passages I posted in the OP.

It was God that wiped humanity off the face of the earth in the so called great flood according to the OT.

God also destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone. So it was not Semites committing genocide in those instances it was God doing it to both his so called chosen people and to others of different races or nationalities as well.

As for the rest of your post I will need to research it before I respond.

[edit on 9-10-2007 by etshrtslr]

reply to post by passenger


Karma was defiantly implied in the Bible even though it was not called as such.

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. Job 4:8

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

Those are the classic examples of cause and effect or for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

For further information read this link.

www.near-death.com...

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by tobiascore
I do believe that massive destructive technology existed in biblical days. When people were wiped out, is was because they chose to explore it.

I don't think it is about exploration but rather about exploitation. When ANYTHING mankind commands is used for any purpose that harms or defeats the spirits of other men, it will not be allowed to prosper.

The underlying truth of the cosmos is UNITY...everything is connected, whether it is understood, recognized, or acknowledged. And the only way to succeed is through unselfish motivations.

Because I generally agree with what you are saying; I, myself, have pondered such things to no end. But how can technology, in and of itself, be either bad or good? It is not a moral/ethical entity but rather a product of mind and of thought leading to physical manifestation in our world. It can either benefit or it can cause harm - the very same technology can do either, in most cases. It is how man applies it that makes the difference.

Thanks for understanding.

Take for example the Ark of the Covenant. It was commanded by God to make it, but at the same time it had strict rules applied to it. It has some sort of possibly nuclear energy attached to it, and when abuse, would kill you in a horrible way. Universial guidlines are set. To go against them, meant to go against Gods universial commands; the rules of physics.

But yeah, humans will forever be condemmed to repeting the cycle we're stuck in. It makes much more sense.

reply to post by etshrtslr


People were created by God? I guess whiping out hoards is OK. Also don't forget to omnipotentence aspect. Those acts were evidently part of God's will. Through the sacrificial death of His Son Jesus Christ God demonstrated his love for mankind. Someday you can ask him about those things. Even if you have Johnny Cochran on your side I don't think you are going to "argue" or justify your point with God. This board is full of those that are trying to repackage old beliefs into something that attacks God. Ever notice how it is Christianity that is usually attacked. No threads attacking Buddism, Hinduism ect...Not kosher? ..why do you suspect that is case.. Besides God needs no defence..

reply to post by BlackProjects


So I guess its ok for God to order the sacrifice of first born children to strike horror in the hearts of parents?

I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD. Ezek. 20:26'

Not to mention the many other passages in the OT where God either ordered the killing of innocent men, women and children or God killed them himself.

Its your choice to worship a God who sacrifices innocent children for his amusement.

I on the other hand believe there is a true God of love and compassion who would never consider nor even commit the atrocities against his creation that the God of the OT has.