Who wants to see No Plane's / etc moved to the Skunk Works forum?

In light of ATS' move today to recategorize "Reptilians" as Skunk Works, who would like to see the same with NoPlanes/TVFakery/DEW's/Holograms/etc? These theories are outlandish and purley speculative, at best, while insulting and deliberate subversive disinfo propaganda at worst. We're talking about technologies that aren't even proven to exist, nor if they did its unknown and arguably impossible for them be able to produce the results claimed.

These rabid theories have divided and diverted the 9/11 forum for the better part of this year. I'll remind everybody that the big yellow WARNING bar across the top of the forums was placed there after Killtown and his crew steadily 'crashed' the forums with TV Trickery etc for weeks on end causing an uproar that even Skeptic Overlord commeted about having spread to other forums at ATS. Now at least 6 months late rthe rage and diversion continues, no matter how bad the theories talking points have been put down. As "Howard Beal" in "Network" said, "This is mass madness..."

NOTE: This was going to be a thread mainly about a certain video, but after posting I seen there was another thread about it and changed the post a bit. Here's the original post...

It looks like the No Plane 'craze' has met its terror. This 'new' video should be the final nail in the coffin. As a commentor at 911Blogger said, "No Plane / TV Trickery - RIP 2007". There's a couple others too.

In the first video of interest the cameraman was on W. Broadway, which was right in line with where the the plane debris was ejected from the opposite side of WTC2. At around time 7:00 the impact occurs. You can hear pandemonium and loud noises as if large things are crashing down around him. Then, as he turns back, you can see plane debris that had apparently landed and killed a pedestrian.
911blogger.com...


www.lib.utexas.edu...
As we've all been covering inother recent threads, other large bits of plane debris were found including a 'still smoking' engine that landed on a street corner not too far from our above cameraman.


While I haven't done an advanced analysis on the raw source video presented above, it does seem to debunk the "MIB Flashy Thing" Theory for how they placed the plane debris on the streets, once and for all.



In this one, at 2:30, you can see the impact of UA175:
www.liveleak.com...
You can even hear them saying that it looked like a United Airlines flight.
en.wikipedia.org...
So does that make them CIA/COINTELPRO Disinfo Agents? Probably not. But perhaps "strangest" of all, they don't mention anything about missiles or holograms or doubts about it being a plane or anything "crazy" and "outlandish" like that. Could it be possible that they in fact seen a plane?

Here's another Home Video where you can see the 2nd impact. In this clip you can't actually see the plane, but you can see the fireball from the engine that landed on the corner of Church and Murray.
www.liveleak.com...
But, oh wait, they said it was a rocket or something from their far off view which caught them off guard. Inititially they didn't know what it was, so perhaps we should take their later comments with a grain of salt? Nah! That proves there was in fact a missile?!


All sarcasm aside folks, plane debris was shot out of the building with seemingly the precise momentum as the "plane" entered the other side. This debris landed in the streets. People likely died from it. REAL human beings. We don't even know the full extent of how much debris landed outside the buildngs.

Perhaps most importantly, there are no known photos or videos showing the ground on the sides where the planes entered. A key argument being parroted is a complaint that the planes entire shapes didn't penetrate all points of contact in the 'cartoon' holes, and that debris wasn't found. YET THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT DEBRIS WASN'T FOUND.



It goes on and on. The NoPlane / DEW / TVFakery / Hologram / SpaceBeams / etc purely speculative paradigm is an insult to the people who died, and to the 9/11 Truth Movement. I'd vote to have it placed the Skunk Works forum -where it belongs- any day.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I concur.

In my opinion, all the arguments put forward for this case that I have reviewed, does not hold water. I feel that these threads should be moved to the Skunk Works section. Of course, should someone come forth with new solid evidence supporting this theory, I am all ears.

In addition, the No Plane theory is not neccessary to explain 9/11 as an inside job.

This is something to consider, but I do not feel it is needed. The amount of "Reptilian" threads and pointless videos was really getting out of hand. On this topic all we have really seen is opinion and I have a right to NOT read it just like I have the right to check it out. Comparing this topic to the Reptilian craze we were seeing is like comparing apples and oranges.

At the very least this topic holds some water and is worth investigating. We all saw the video were the plane looks like it melts into the building so at least there is some basis to these claims though the majority of it is mere speculation but isn't the controlled demo theory also? Fact is NONE OF US know for a FACT what happened on 9-11, we have all speculated and come to our own conclusions. I think it was a CD and the Government was IN ON IT from the start. That is my opinion and that is where I feel the evidence leads, but it is still just speculation.

Oh now come on! You people are starting to pi$$ on my paradise over here in Skunk Works.

I feel your pain IIB and I agree with you on most issues. I make my husband come and read most all of your excellent essays. But I have my limits! "My feelings on this issue can best be expressed through the song"... no really NIMBY!''

I know that the 9/11 forums are mired in chaos and flames but Skunk Works has been pretty fearless and fun. I worry it will now change and we will all be drowning in endless conjecture and name-calling.

At some point people need to just agree to disagree. I know, I know...free speech. I do get that Skunk Works makes sense philosophically speaking but dang!

Just so everyone understands...I know how to use my alert button and I'm not afraid to do it. And, I don't tolerate incivility. Our motto is to "Deny Ignorance" not "Deny Manners".

I'm in favor. The reason is that there is way too much evidence to show that the aircraft existed for holograms or no aircraft theories to have any credible weight.

reply to post by section8citizen

reply to post by kosmicjack


I can see some of where you're coming from, I'd like to submit the 'definition' of "Skunk Works":

Skunk Works is a term used in engineering and technical fields to describe a group within an organization given a high degree of autonomy and unhampered by bureaucracy, tasked with working on advanced or secret projects.
en.wikipedia.org...

By definition these interlocking theories are Skunks Works type materials in contrast to 'simple' things like missiles and bombs. In most variations of the overall theories a mixture of these speculative technologies and methods are required. Majority of these interlocking technologies aren't even proven to exist. It's not "O a big cannon did 'this'", instead it's "O, theoretical holograms & space beams & MIB flashy things were used to pull it off".

That's pure speculation. Debunkable speculation at that.

For persepective, by "ATS Email Special" on AGI (see my sig) was placed in Skunk Works and went tottally unnoticed as well. Was it speculation about things "they" were doing or could do? No. Was it "secret"? No. It was public programs and initiatives that can be read about right on their public showcase site, as well as a laundry list of related and supporting facts, in addition to basic emerging trends in sciences that can be charted using the Law of Accelerating Returns. Their AI projects have even had successes, which each in turn adds to the acceleration process. There's literally no debate, and this stuff is actually overdue. The state of general progress has these things emerging almost naturally in the industrial/commercial sectors, and here the government is openly active in deliberately pushing the technologies ASAP to 'be the first guy'. The related institutions such as Google are openly talking about their relationships and plans within these initiatives. Similar threads even go thru the Science & Technology forum. Where's the speculation? Where's the "secret"? Where is the debate?

That's "Skunk Works". Fine. But theoretical space beams & holograms and the rest being used in conjuction in front of the eyes of millions (with contradictory evidence that basically destroys the theories) is something that should be an ongoing diversionary process in the standard forums? I disagree. While I was only disappointed that AGI went Skunk Works, I find it more and more offending that baseless No Plane theories continue to take center stage, while making anybody '911' look cartoonish, and diverting the path to new investigations.


[edit on 7-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Exactly. I see no reason as to why NO PLANES is tolerated, the evidence in most cases has the same exact problem, namely highly compressed video's from youtube.

Also I noticed the "reptilian attack" was very similar to the "NO PLANE attack", spamming the forum again and again with things that are clearly debunked or have answers that are perfectly reasonable.

Both should be in skunk works.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by talisman]

whenever someone proves an american airlines jet hit the pentagon you can move no planes theory to skunk works. untill then keep posting.

reply to post by jprophet420


How about this:
What piece of evidence would it take for you to admit that No Planes is bunk?

But, you know, your suggestion doens't have much context here. The theory paradigm in question is NO PLANES. Why would someone have to prove that "American airlines" did it to make the hologram flashy thing space beams be recategorized?

Well the whole nose out photoshoping done by Fox news and CNN is what started the no plane theory right?? I mean lets admit (and I'm new to the research) that it is a little odd that the mainstream media shots of the planes looks very strange.

I concur with IIB. The no planers just regurgitate the same ol' stuff over and over even though it is debunked a million times. They should, IMO, go the way of the reptillians.

I Agree, Shun the No-plane 'theory' to the dispicable pit of the skunkworks. Its not a real theory, it doesnt make any sense. It needs to go. DENY IGNORANCE. Get Rid Of The balderdash.

peace.

I cry foul!!!

Let's be honest. Every 9-11 theory has been "debunked" by one person or another to a certain degree. Every single 9-11 theory is speculation.

As far as no planes vs planes... it is still a theory worth listening to. 9-11 is not just about NYC and the WTC complex although it does tend to get the most attention. 9-11 was also about Washington DC and Pennsylvania. I have never seen any evidence to suggest to me that a plane hit the pentagon or a plane went down in Pennsylvania. I am sure several people would disagree but it is neither here nor there and that is not the point I am trying to make. I do believe planes hit the towers. However my belief should not be the issue here. The point being... the evidence does require further investigation. As long as there is a part of the 9-11 story where it is believed no planes were involved, then it is a viable theory worth looking at.

Using my belief as an example, I have to ask myself if no planes hit the Pentagon... why is it so far fetched to think maybe they did not hit in NYC either? For me the jury is out on the topic and I would love to hear from someone who has actually researched this theory thoroughly, cause I have not.

One last point I would like to make.....

The No Planes Theory is a theory that is going to be played out in Court. NO other theory regarding 9-11 has been heard by any court of law that I am aware of, but this theory will be. That alone gives it some level of credibility, even above all other theories. In the interest of fairness, if you move this to Skunk Works you would have to move the whole 9-11 forum over there as well.

I wish I could give stars in this forum ...

Section8 ... you make very great points, and if they listen, they should understand. If they don't, it will remind me of a child sticking its fingers in the ears and talking to avoid hearing anyone else and what they have to say.

If you are frustrated with something, well, stop reading and responding to the threads ... it is really that simple! You choose to click, you choose to read, you choose to type. That is a lot of free choice. This does come down to free speech. It IS a 9-11 topic. It SHOULD go in the 9-11 forum. It IS in court. There IS evidence of it NOT being a plane in PA ... though I know the arguments to the contrary.

We all make a choice with our eyes ... I see a lot of hate, ignorance, racism, rudeness ... I don't even put those people on ignore ... because they are entitled to their views no matter how wrong I feel they are. I will ONLY report it if it is a very aggressive personal attack ... though a lot of the bickering and heartless dismissal is WORSE than a crazy idea/theory ... because, considering ideas that you don't like or accept is what makes life interesting and enjoyable ... if we all thought the same and agreed on everything ... how boring is that ... and how little progress would be made? Thinking outside your own thoughts is healthy for your brain ... it benefits you to expand your horizons and perceptions, to consider all options, even if you don't believe in them ... but THINK about it.

Enough of the child's play ... I hope to see ATS what it should be, a collaboration of intellectual people discussing things civilly ... to consider all things and debate with with respect and honor. Don't keep asking 'where's the proof' ... this isn't a Wendy's commercial ... Argue your side with as much evidence and dignity that you request. Of course someone will be dismissive towards someone who is dismissive towards them. Of course someone isn't going to spend hours trying to prove something to you when you ignore what they say and repeat the same questions ...

I know it is annoying to ask a serious question and not get a response, but, try going about it different. Ask a question and say with sincerity and detail why you feel it you need to ask the question. Treat others as you would have yourself be treated, speak to others as you would hope a teacher would speak to your child if they didn't understand a subject. Don't try to beat your opponent into submission, don't torture them because you don't agree and they cannot articulate their stance to your approval. Not everyone is a genius, but that doesn't make their opinions any less valid than yours (the poor grammar/spelling hate is ridiculous).

You have to remember, even facts are wrong sometimes ... even things that were once thought proved are shown to be false and the 'crazy' idea someone had ended up being the truth. You can't see the world in such a confined way ... there are so many parts of the spectrum we cannot see, but we can try ... but trying to limit it to black and white is only a limit on yourself.

Again, it all boils down to a choice ... you can acknowledge it and help the discussion along in a positive way (on either side) ... or you can simply ignore it and move on with your life ... omitting this frustration that you are causing yourself by looking into things that make you unhappy. I am sure you make these choices many times in your life ... I don't watch horror or action films because I feel they are a waste of my time ... but I watch what others consider bland films and shows by those who are into the action/horror stuff. Should either genre not be produced because a person or group of people disapprove? Of course not, because we each make a choice of what we wish to invest our time into. Just like the radio, I refuse to listen to pop or rush limbaugh ... I feel they both waste precious oxygen with their sour existence ... but that doesn't mean radio should remove them because I find their distastefulness a vile broadcast ... because some people love pop and rush ... and they have the right to listen as much as I have the right to turn the dial.

Freedom works both ways. I know this topic isn't for the banning of the discussion altogether (though some wish it was), but I just want you to remember that even if you don't agree, ALL 9-11 discussion should remain in the 9-11 board. There are already measures available if something can be shown to be an undeniable hoax ... but ... you cannot prove all the videos to be a hoax just as the official theory cannot be as well as any other theories no matter how rational or grandeur.

You have to admit, a no plane thoery makes more sense than a flock of seagulls with bellies full of rice and napalm flew into the building at 500 mph in the shape of airliners, exploding on contact and then changed on the atomic level to spit out metal in the shape of an engine to land on the sidewalk (which I believe the no-plane people say is far too small of an engine to have been for those planes).


I really just want everyone across the whole community to LIGHTEN UP ... make this place enjoyable again. I have contemplated leaving this place several times from all the negativity ... I just don't need it in my life. I would hate to lose the intellectual stimulation, but, weighing it out, I would rather have a peaceful disposition and get my mental exercise elsewhere ... than to have my limits pushed in a good way, while also having to absorb so much anger, hatred, ignorant dismissal of abstract ideas, spoiled whiny-ness, etc. If you believe and agree fine, if you don't, discuss with maturity or hold back your comments until you can do so. Don't take everything so personal and despise and write-off people because they think different. Who knows, one day they might be shown to be right ... if you shown proper etiquette, then you won't have mud in your face nor have to eat crow. The world would be a much better place if we all respected each other's differences.

It doesn't matter what I believe in this subject, I have an open mind. I am willing to consider fully all sides. I am always willing to change my views if presented with convincing enough evidence ... not much in this world is set in stone, and even those things should be questioned. I wish most would read and understand this, but I know I am speaking to walls ... but I tried

Originally posted by section8citizen
For me the jury is out on the topic and I would love to hear from someone who has actually researched this theory thoroughly, cause I have not.

Go ahead and read the 2 threads linked in the OP, and you'll see that its been beaten to death. Observe them speak in absolutes after flat out ignoring impossible evidence, as if it never happened. But first explain the evidence I provided. Explain the plane debriis without using the MIB flashy thing argument which even now appears to be 'debunked'.

The No Planes Theory is a theory that is going to be played out in Court. NO other theory regarding 9-11 has been heard by any court of law that I am aware of, but this theory will be.

That's proof positive that it's entire essence is Disinfo. Kind of funny how the most outlandish case is given legal consideration, meanwhile, no impeachment hearings etc. Small wonder there. Pundits like Sean Hannity have been using the "I seen the planes, there was no conspiracy, we all seen what happened" talking points for over a year. Its all a tool to smear "Truthers" and make them look like tinfoil hat UFO people, and sure enough as pointed out that's where it leads.
The military will never offer up enough classified technology info even if it exists. There is no case.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by section8citizen
I have to ask myself if no planes hit the Pentagon... why is it so far fetched to think maybe they did not hit in NYC either?

Or the logical way around: If planes hit the WTC, why is it so far fetched to think maybe they hit the Pentagon and Shanksville aswelll?

No, SW is going too easy on these hoaxers. The first time they post, explain that their theories are without merit and that they should not further post on this subject. Second offense=banning.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by uberarcanist]

here here!
MOVE IT, MOVE IT, MOVE IT!!!

[edit on 7-10-2007 by icybreeze]

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist


Hello FreeThinkerIdealist. Think of me as FreeThinkerRealist for a moment if you could...

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
If you are frustrated with something, well, stop reading and responding to the threads ... it is really that simple!

It's not that simple, unless of course you don't mind having your entire movement underminded by disinfo. A movement related to the most significant event of our time, the subject which desperately needs a new investigation, yet subversive theories like these ensure that we wont get one any time soon as the clock ticks by... ...
And as it does the forums remains "under close scrutiny" becuase its a childish issue by nature and that the way the threads end up...

Enough of the child's play ... I hope to see ATS what it should be, a collaboration of intellectual people discussing things civilly ... to consider all things and debate with with respect and honor.

There's nothing intellectual about the discussions, as those who adhere to the interlocking theor(ies) present fantasies as facts:

Don't keep asking 'where's the proof'

So when people declare things as absolute facts and keep repeating it over and over you shouldn't ask for proof you should just let them continue to declare maybe's(at-best) as total solid irrefutable facts? That's some way to find truth.

I know it is annoying to ask a serious question and not get a response, but, try going about it different.

Yeah, you ask a key question and they ignore it and talk over it as if it didn't happen. So then pages go by so you ask again, and they ignore it. Ad Infinitum until you rub it in their face. Then they throw in more off the wall stuff to get around that. Ad Infinitum.



Let me put it like this: If there really was a conspiracy, you can bet they're out there (including here) spreading diversionary disinfo. If there really was/is a conspiracy you can bet your life that thsi theory is that disinfo, and they're winning.

but that doesn't mean radio should remove them because I find their distastefulness a vile broadcast ...

I never said ban discussion of it. I said recategorize it like has been done to other disruptive and outlandish matters. The theory has been trounced. People have been caught engaging in direct trickery. People have been publicly banned for subversive activities related to it. All the time you see the HOAX label added to various posts at thsi site. Our subject here has been one long ongoing multi-thread thing of the same nature. Hoax type material gets dumped in the Skunk Work often if I'm not mistaken.

I give up. This isn't even being discussed in the 911 forum now where the issue actually matters to those who frequent it. Those who it applies to should be able to voice theirs.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

As much as we're aware of some of the controversies surrounding the "no planes" theory, it is rightfully associated with 9/11. The issue of the "reptilian" threads had nothing to do with aliens or UFO's... so the action to move such threads out of the Aliens & UFO's forum was justified.