Thou Shalt Not Kill, Except in a Popular Video Game at Church

i'm nly one page three so far but can you imagine if a kid was to play one of these games AND listen to heavy metal at the same time??

bwuahahahahaah

i think it is stupid of the church to try and lure the kiddies in with this electronic candy but it is lame to think these games cause or acclimate kids to violence.


like in the 80's when those dorks killed themselves and wrote down the judas priest music told them to do it...mind you, they were hanging out in the park drinking and doing drugs, but it was the music

if some video gamer is all messed up, it's not cause the games...maybe mommy didn't love em oe someone from the church loved em too much, but halo is not to be blamed.

yeah, and the rash of suicides in the same time frame that were blamed on Dungeons & Dragons. As was Satanism.

Kids have used mock violence for as long as there have been kids. When I was little it was Cops n Robbers. Now it's pixels.

I don't believe that the link to video games and real life violence is clear.

Society is going to the dogs lately. People have to work hard, both parents have jobs, many kids are being raised by single parents, they're not supervised properly, they don't have a close, loving family life quite often, and they're over-scheduled and over-pressured. I would look to those things before I'd blame gaming for violence.

Actually i would disagree about supervised properly.

Parents are supervising their kids too much, putting their superstitions and beliefs in their kids, trying to make carbon copies of themselves.

This means old ways of thinking come into contact with new ways of doing things. Leading to problems.

Overparenting does alot more damage than underparenting.

reply to post by MajorMalfunction


things change...the dude saying that he played D and D and it took effort. when his parents were kids it was lincoln logs and when their parents were kids it was marbles.
what would they think of D and D



all this is lame..ALL of it
the church using it as a lure. the mind control end. the getting kids used to violence...
silly

reply to post by Octavius Maximus


i agree with you and major.
some parents don't care whats what. others are up their butts all day trying to live their life through them..
you need to be there to prode love, support, and guidance to them.
they need to be themselves.

every kid is different.
to the person that let their kid play those games at 3. i did the same type thing only with movies we watched together.
my son is now 11 and he is a great kid. plays basketball, football and baseball. makes honor roll and has perfect attendence.
so far, he and i watching con air together when he was a child has not turned him into a psycho.

some kids can't handle that stuff.
he was still watching blues clues and that but at night when i wanted to watch a flick, if he was up he watched with with me.
no big.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Actually i would disagree about supervised properly.

Depends where you are. If you're in Great White Suburbia, I can get behind that, too.

But I live in da ghetto. Believe me, a lot of kids are NOT supervised properly. Or at all in a lot of cases. And there is more violence here than in GWS.

Nononono, you misunderstand me.

When i say 'Supervised properly' It means that you need to decide what is best for your child and the amount of a leash you hold on them. Dont be to harsh, dont be too loose. Just be what your child needs, a guiding hand.

Think of it this way, modern psychology emphasises the need to reject isolationism in children.

If your child gets into a fight, sure its bad. But you can talk to them, you can get it all sorted and the child will learn how to deal with certain situations.

Its your chance to be a teacher.

You can isolate your child away from fights, but that means the child never learns how to deal with that kind of situation. You never get your chance to open up to them. So later in life they will be missing a valuable lesson.

Do you understand me?

Then again, this is an Aussie perspective, we dont really have Ghettos or anything, and weapons are much more of a rare thing. So getting into a fight is less of a 'fatal occurence.

As someone who does not frequent church, i would have to say, if i knew there were 16 big screen TV's with Halo hooked up and a LAN going down... I would find my way there...

Now, should they be doing it... problay not...

Is there some legality isssues with the Church allowing young teens to play a game designed for those over the age of 17, i would have thought so.

And as far as Halo being a traing ground for future wars, that is the most unlikly thing i have heard, and you must not have seen the Game called America's Army.

Now there is something to look into, it is the most realistic shoting game out there, and it is all about fighting as a Marine, and it is avalible for free!

I've been playing games since I was a kid. I consider myself a big kid who still plays games for entertainment. I don't agree with the idea that games are used by the government as mind control however I do think you can put a message into games the way film does it by changing people's perspectives on certain issues.

Example in halo is where the aliens responsible for protecting the prophets eventually get betrayed by them. Not disimilar to the Jedi knights no longer being the guiding hand in the star wars prequel movies after the sith lord manages to send them on missions to spread them out and then at the right moment replace them with the mind controlled clone soldiers who were programmed to be loyal only to palpatine/sidius.

You could say the aliens are just bad guys but by the second game you see they are just being misled and lied and used. In many cliched science fiction movies aliens have always represented other races or cultures that are different to us so it's our own fault to assume they are the bad guy. But in halo it's just one race betraying another race and the humans just happen to be caught in the middle of it all. It isn't good versus evil, just war - one side fighting another side for power or to survive.

However a game with no violence or guns is not marketable to adult males who want action and something that relies on skills to win. I don't see myself buying a game where you talk to the aliens and be diplomatic to them as being as fun to play as one where shooting is required. But there are games like Civilisation where you can choose to be peaceful to any other civilisation you encounter or be 'mean', 'violent', 'powerhungry' warmongering where you choose to use force. It's not about being right or wrong (morals has nothing to do with why you would play the game) so much as what is the best chance to win? And good games let you figure things out for yourself and don't preach to you by saying one path is more wrong or right than another one.

I don't think halo or a book like LOTR is trying to preach so I can't really see where the whole "encouraging violence in the real world through simulations disguised as harmless videogame entertainment" argument comes from. Anything with guns automatically = violence. But why we gravitate to the shooting games is because we like action and to apply skills to win, not because we are violent people who are dangerous to society. Any more than a person who loves to watch horror movies is likely to be a danger to you in the real world because they are drawn to the haunting images or suspense that you get from that underground genre of movie. As much as I play lots of violent games, I was raised to respect life and would never choose to harm someone unless attacked first which is a right of any living thing to preserve itself. The fact of the matter is if you were being attacked by an alien race who just destroyed your planet in the hope of making you extinct, you would do anything in your power to prevent it. Some will choose to fight through physical means, others will fight through cunning and trickery if they are too weak to win honorably, (backstabbing the leader and assasination) and others yet will bow down and try to negotiate for a better deal, or run if neither of the above are good options for survival. (aliens tell you they will not negotiate with you and just want you dead possibly afraid that you are too dangerous to keep alive)

I do think it is possible however that like books, film, tv, music and other forms of entertainment there is the possibility of brainwashing but not in enough of a sophisticated form that would affect me personally. I'm pretty cynical of most mainstream entertainment as well as alternative media. Critical thinking is a life skill you learn from experiences that you have growing up. Not something that can be learned in a school where a teacher is only allowed to teach what the government want you to know.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus

I guess you must suck at CounterStrike...

You didn't learn anything about using cover, fire and movement, teamwork, flanking attacks, oblique fields of fire, grenades...

I do agree that the practical value of these simulations is basic but the basics are for children yes?

yes, the basics. Such as the weight of a rifle, such as absorbing a hit, such as not losing your nerve and firing a teammate accidentally, such as firing and compensating, but not overcompensating, for recoil.

Those are the basics, and you get none of that in a computer game.

Sure, but a lot of what you list here nobody gets in any kind of training, absorbing a hit and keeping your nerve are the basics in an actual combat situation. So is living for weeks in the mud , ice and sand. Nobody has coded this into Halo yet either and no military training course incorporates all of the actual elements of combat, they simulate them because that is their purpose.

Video games put kids in a military mindest. They express some of the basic actions that a soldier might percievably encounter. They are also well documented as being used for actual adult military training.

Therefore I persist in the notion that they must have some limited value...

I'd like to add that in a way, you are led to believe humans are the good guy but only because we relate to human characters better than alien ones.

So in star wars all the main characters are human.

But in lord of the rings humans are a 'fallen nature' race that has weaknesses and temptations and ambitions for gaining power. (with the elves being the good ones)

But a story wouldn't be interesting if we didn't have a bad guy to compete with. Humans being too perfect would mean no chance for the story to take an unpredictable turn or lead to an uncertain path that keeps you wanting to know more and keep turning the pages to see what's next. If you have an issue with real world violence, I would please suggest you leave videogames out of the debate as movies, music, books, tv shows have gotten away with much worse violence than anything games have or ever will.

A movie like saving private ryan shows very graphic images of war where people's body is mutilated and a game like call of duty for example doesn't show a hint of limbs being lost due to grenade explosion. If you are going to judge the game industry you better damn well apply the same level of judgment to other forms of media too. I'm not going to let the anti-game groups or soccer dads get off that easily and ruin my hobby just because their kids are taking drugs, abusing alcohol, angry at the world, committing suicide, and creating problems for others due to bad parenting or just plain lack of supervision/care by their busy moms and dads who are not doing their job well and just not giving a #. It's those people that love to blame society or some external source for their own problems instead of taking a good look at themselves and how they were brought up before casting blame elsewhere. If you don't like it, just turn off the tv, throw the game console away, or don't read books or watch movies. It's your choice. Nobody twisted your arm. But don't tell others what they can and can't do just because you or a small minority of people with #ty upbringing can't control their kids properly and want to blame the game companies just so you can sue them for money.

So long as you take part in your child's life and communicate with them and involve yourself, then the 'mind control' in the games won't have any effect on the person. You can't just blame others, you got to take personal responsibility too. Videogames are the new scapegoat in the media, and the media can not be trusted to report the truth. They just want to create an interesting story to sell papers generate sensationalism to panic the older generation who is too ignorant to know about the topic in enough depth to be able to see the truth of the matter and too lazy to seperate the facts from the myth. It's much easier to go accusing a big generic group who you don't even mix with than to bother to find out for yourself if what the media is saying is true or not. Someone mentioned the concept of divide and conquer and trying to help create wars by focusing on people's differences as a way to turn them against each other rather than on the real manipulators who must remain invisible throughout the whole thing. I agree and think that is the case with the media trying to turn the older and more ignorant generaton who never plays games, against the younger generation who are going to "be the future leader" who will eventually get old themselves, and try to play one side against another so people are too busy to see the real problems that are the real causes for violence: that the rich will always have burning ambitions to conquer others to gain more power and authority, and want to send the poor to secure the treasure for them, making them ignorant of WHY they are doing it by creating a "good cop bad cop" routine where you only have two choices but both of them are going to lead to the same result and empower the manipulator rather than actually benefit society at large.

They hope people are stupid.

[edit on 8-10-2007 by Snake Plisskin]

Personally I take the view that this story stands as an example of the state of Christianity today.

Perhaps I am nieve but I don't see a horror story of brainwashing and subliminal coding but rather a desperate act of a clearly faltering and flailing institution to try and beg people to attend. It makes me almost chuckle inside at such a clumsy and blatant attempt to lure in the key younger 'market' into Church. To me it's almost a statement reading along the lines:
'Hey kids, we at the Church might have got a bad press recently but I'm here to tell you we're truly down with your modern ways. We're hip, we're cool and to prove it you can come over to our crib and chill. We've got some dope games to play. Please? I promise I'll be your friend!'
It's bribery; it's the 'uncool' kid at school trying to make friends with the popular kids by giving them stuff or letting them play with their ball.

The choice of Halo 3 as a game to me was simply because of it's phenomenal popularity. Perhaps a bit of a PR bungle due to it's 'violent' content (real world violence or not it still does depict and reward the shooting dead of sentient beings.) It just reveals this, to my eyes, as a failed PR attempt

Sure, but a lot of what you list here nobody gets in any kind of training, absorbing a hit and keeping your nerve are the basics in an actual combat situation. So is living for weeks in the mud , ice and sand. Nobody has coded this into Halo yet either and no military training course incorporates all of the actual elements of combat, they simulate them because that is their purpose.

What? Australian soldiers get that kind of training. Real nasty affairs. I remember seeing a couple of my friends come back after a long Bivuac (or however you spell it) and combat games. It was like paintball and they came back with some pretty nasty bruises.

ill just tell you that at the time these guys were 16/17

Video games put kids in a military mindest. They express some of the basic actions that a soldier might percievably encounter. They are also well documented as being used for actual adult military training.

Yes, but they are a very one dimensional affair, they dont include the hours upon hours of waiting, the boring parts, and the conditions.

A simulation is just that, an unrealistic copy.

Therefore I persist in the notion that they must have some limited value...

Then why am i, a gamer, not joining the army?

Why do i not like guns?

reply to post by Octavius Maximus


Obviously I cannot speak for the original posters to whom you reply but his\her point is still justified imho.
Whether I believe it or not, it could be argued that Covert Ops games and team based objective led counter terrorism FPS games have a degree of conditioning in them. You learn fundamentals.
If you prefer the sniper or 'camper' role in FPS games you have to chose your positions carefully. They need optimum field of fire over strategic areas of the 'map'. You need good cover from any incoming fire, you need to select as inaccesible a spot as possible so others don't stumble apon you and you need a viable escape plan. Normally such areas are rare on most FPS maps but they exist and as a support sniper it's my job and role within the team to find and establish as best a camping spot as I can.
Obviously such games cannot teach you about windspeed and how distances affect trajectory etc BUT I can tell you I have become quite adept at predicting player movements, training my crosshairs to where the player will be when I take my shot.

I'm not sure if I subscribe to some of the notions about conditioning within games and the alledged purposes of such conditioning but I can't argue that the potential isn't there.

EDIT: Grammar etc

[edit on 8-10-2007 by ElKapitan]

The are many ways of taking the Lord's name in vain. This is one of them.

I'm not sure if I subscribe to some of the notions about conditioning within games and the alledged purposes of such conditioning but I can't argue that the potential isn't there.

I can argue that though.

Playing Zelda on the wii, i have to use a controller to aim a bow and arrow.

Then every sunday i go and do archery at Olympic park.

2 completly different skillsets are needed for these things.

Same as playing counter strike and shooting a gun in real life.

Churches these days have more goodies and trinkets than a child molester in a van promising candy and puppy dogs...

I mean hell the one my family attends to have bowling lanes underground, and all kind of lil crap like that..


JOIN OUR CULERRRR YOUTH GROUP RAWR!


If a video game can brainwash you, Do everyone a favor, and hold your breath until you die, because you are a total robot and probably have no true sentience, just like a big walking rotting pinata waiting for Lys to splatter you with warped bat and reach ultimate satisfaction.

reply to post by Octavius Maximus


I agree with the actual mechanics of warefare such as firing a gun, as you stated, but in my post I focused more on the tactical awareness that you can gain from playing (especially mutliplayer online) FPS games.
Sure I haven't learned how to fire and reload a gun from playing an FPS but I might have become a little more 'combat savvy.' Continuing the example of camping and sniping in my previous post one might be able to apply the 'knowledge' gained from playing UT, Quake, CS etc etc etc an spot potential positions where enemy snipers could be positioned in real world situations.

All this seems far fetched even to me but I find it very interesting that I might have gained even the slightest degree of tactical knowledge, an understanding of how to work effectively as part of a strike force or even how to effectively direct team/squad mates to best serve the mission from playing a computer game!

The knowledge of how to fire and reload basic fire arms can be taught in a matter of minutes (though clearly not to an 'advanced' level) but the understanding that could perhaps be garnered from hours of online team based FPS play is something that can't be taught so easily.

Yet again, I don't strictly subscribe to the theory that this indeed happens or that if it did it points to nefarious government/religious activities I merely find the concept intriguing and worth at least a modicum of merit and time.

I grew up in church and I think its great that churches are doing things to keep kids interested. I know I had a lot of fun attending sunday school and church functions such as going bowling or playing games. I made a lot of friends that I still have. I cant speak for all churches but for the most part when they do things like having halo, they are for the most part just trying to keep the kids that already attend interested.

I mean honestly, do you beleive some random kids are going to start attending without their parents? Do you think some 10 year old kids are gonna be like "later mom, im going walk x amount of miles all alone to attend church to play halo, see you later" No they will be there with their parents, just as they would be without halo being involved.

My firm beleif is that Halos is not the issue just some of you have deep rooted issues with church. Last I checked we have freedom of religion and if they want to include Halo than they are free to do so.

To the person that made the statement about WoW being point click and kill, you obviously have spent 0 hours playing because it takes enormous skill and teamwork to excell in the game. Sure if you want to only experience a very small part of this virtual world you can go all by yourself and just point click and kill all day; however theres a vast plane of existance that requires teamwork and sometimes requires 40 people to make it happen.

Why are you all not up in arms about bowling alleys and video arcades that have worse games turning your tikes into agents of destruction. I mean honestly, over react much?

Oh and also as far as military games conditioning soldiers, well the games would not be nearly as cool if they were not as indepth and realistic as they are. Noone wants to play an old cartoony two demensional feeling crappy army game anymore. Technology is too far along for that.