U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis

U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis

news.yahoo.com

WASHINGTON - Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."

(visit the link for the full news article)

I can't even begin to explain what's wrong with this. Whoever thought of this method as some fool proof way of killing potential insurgents should be charged with war crimes.

How are they able to differentiate between a curious Iraqi who wants to know what a certain object is that's laying on the street and an insurgent? What if a child picked up the object, would they continue with their orders?

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 24-9-2007 by DJMessiah]

You beat me to the punch

The sniper baiting does not bug me as much as the accusations that weapons are being planted after civilians are taken down to make the killing look "legit"

reply to post by FredT


I once actually believed that goverment had good intentions entering Iraq, and liberate it, like they did Afghanistan from the Taliban, but when I read stories like these, it makes me lose so much confidence. Over the past few months, I have been growing more and more heart broken over what's happening to the citizens there, and learning that nothing will be done to fix it except having the blame placed on a scapegoat, like a low ranking officer, rather than the monster who planned these types of strategies.

Really, this war is disheartening. I'm starting to question a lot of things now and growing distant over having confidence in anything our goverment does anymore.

[edit on 24-9-2007 by DJMessiah]

reply to post by FredT


I agree, the "baiting" as described can be effective if done properly but the planting of weapons on a scene is not acceptable. Those soldiers should be investigated etc... Nothing is completely fail safe, especially in a war, and there is no "clean" war so some losses should be expected. The "baiting" method is not new nor is it as dramatic as some may like to believe, as I said before it can be productive…

Well I could understand why whole caches of weapons could used as bait or monitored for Intel purposes but I have to doubt the effectives of using a single weapon to lure in the enemy for the reasons that members have already outlined on this thread. Small bait only catches small fish and the catches that are worth frying are the insurgent leaders.

Thats just my 10 cents.

Baiting is not new, and is very effective. I see no harm in this action. Don't care who picked up what, one-shot-one-kill.

Stop trying to place TV show ethics on WAR. WAR has no rules. Kill the enemy, as many as you can. How ever you can, as fast as you can.

problem is that kids are more likely to pick stuff up like this than adults...they don't know better and are curious.

and btw...this isn't war...it's occupation. big difference.

Originally posted by DJMessiah

I can't even begin to explain what's wrong with this. Whoever thought of this method as some fool proof way of killing potential insurgents should be charged with war crimes.

How are they able to differentiate between a curious Iraqi who wants to know what a certain object is that's laying on the street and an insurgent? What if a child picked up the object, would they continue with their orders?

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 24-9-2007 by DJMessiah]

i agree with you 100%.. this is sad that they need a "bait then kill" type of tactic.. these guys skill level is that low?...

Actually you left the part out of the report that they not only have to pick it up but try to leave with it. I think that would keep "curious Iraqi" casulities down to a minimum.

Originally posted by astmonster
Kill the enemy, as many as you can. How ever you can, as fast as you can.

Would you please tell us how do identify the enemy in this case? If he picks up a suspicious item (it might even look as something that isn't weapon; detonation cord is an example - people that aren't trained could mistake a spool of detonation cord for spool of electrical cord, as an example). I would bet most of these people are killed because of curiosity.

Oh, and by the way, if you don't know, there ARE some rules that MUST be obeyed even in the war. If you're a soldier and not a murderer and criminal of war, that is.

Well I could understand why whole caches of weapons could used as bait or monitored for Intel purposes but I have to doubt the effectives of using a single weapon to lure in the enemy for the reasons that members have already outlined on this thread. Small bait only catches small fish and the catches that are worth frying are the insurgent leaders.

Now, that's the good idea of using baits. Well said, xpert11
And such tactical approach can prove to be quite effective - you can track those people, and perhaps find interesting clues and follow-ups that can help you bust an entire group.

Your replies horrify me I think some of you should be shot for picking up an item behind your house not knowing what it is.

As far as Det cord.

You can make some with cotten and Gas.

You dont need det cord.

If this was a Drug bust.In Old America.

This would be called entrapment and they would have to release there suspect.

I hope God comes soon lets end this world his way!

If you think Operation Iraqi freedom is about killing Iraqis you should be killed!

[edit on 28-9-2007 by infamouskiller]

People are so stupid sometimes.

Why did we even go to war with Iraq?

No army to speak of not uniformed anyways.

Speratic groups of 8-10 people randomly Base camped in the desert is what they seem to be fighting.

Ever wonder where the Iraquis get there IED car bombs.

They dig up one of the 40,000 missles we dropped on there country.

And use it on us.

As far as im concerned USA gets what it deserves.

And im american tho I do not care about my countries soldiers the baby killers will burn in hell forever and I will be laughing.

The balls of the adminstration to name this Iraqi Freedom.

And yet these are the same soldiers that protect the right for you to say such garbage. I think you need to spend some time in Iraq and maybe that would change your tone a little.

in what is a four year old combat zone, even kids know what ordnance looks like. The ones who are still alive have been trained NOT to pick up something that may detonate if touched.

I seriously doubt that snipers are killing anyone who walks on the scene. But if you leave what looks like a crate of grenades lying out by some dead bodies, and an adult drives up in a pick-up, then gets out and starts picking his way toward the bait . . .

Originally posted by Duby78


Would you please tell us how do identify the enemy in this case? If he picks up a suspicious item (it might even look as something that isn't weapon; detonation cord is an example - people that aren't trained could mistake a spool of detonation cord for spool of electrical cord, as an example). I would bet most of these people are killed because of curiosity.

Oh, and by the way, if you don't know, there ARE some rules that MUST be obeyed even in the war. If you're a soldier and not a murderer and criminal of war, that is.

In war anyone not in your own uniform or alies unifrom is the enemy. In Iraq they are no civilians in a battle area. Rules in war do nothing but make someone hesitate. The purpose of war is to kill those who oppose you. No exceptions, no second thought. Rules of engagement are made up for political cover, not to protect your own soldiers.

reply to post by astmonster


Is it Iraqi law that salvaging weapons and ammo is punishable by death without a trial upon determination by US forces?

Or do they get a trial? What this amounts to is MURDER. Its not a question of if, its a question of when someone will pick it up.

At minimum a concerned adult may simply be trying to take it out of the reach of children who play nearby. Or what if its an off-duty Iraqi police officer doing his job and keeping the community safe?

Thats why you have a justice system and trials. Simply picking up something lying on the side of the rode is not in itself a crime even if that something was a weapon.

[edit on 29-9-2007 by Malichai]

Now come on people. I already stated that the person has to leave with the item before they are taken care of. Lets all use common sense here. Don't you think all these concerns were addressed and proper rules of engagement were put in place? You are going on an article that I have already found an important fact left out of it.

The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.

"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."


[edit on 09/4/2007 by wardk28]

Originally posted by Malichai

Thats why you have a justice system and trials.
[edit on 29-9-2007 by Malichai]

Typical complete and utter misunderstanding of the entire concept of WAR.

Lawyers and Jag have no place on the battlefield. Unless they are "in" the crosshairs..............