Exactly why are they bulldozing houses?

Jewish protestors in Israel have been arrested and face possible prosecution after standing in front of bulldozers, preventing them from demolishing the home of Palestinians.

Personally, I don't understand, and I don't think my beloved media does a very good job of explaining to me why Israel is doing this to innocent people.

After they bulldoze the homes they put up barbed wire fences, or a wall, build guard towers, then build low cost housing and move in Jewish imigrants.

It's called Ethnic Cleansing.

Very serious if not slanderous charges and assertions Arch.....and one needs to be very careful when leveling such 'charges', despite your views, beliefs, and possible 'evidences' that you think proves your point or observations.

BTW....what was it called when 6-7 miliion Jews were killed.....was that "ethnic cleansing" also?

And if one, such as yourself has mentioned reading, reads the Hamas and Palestinian Charter's, seems to me then, using your 'logic' Arch, that every time a suicide bomber takes the life of an innocent Israeli or two or three, etc., that besides it being called 'terrorism' that it could, per your definition, also be described as "ethnic cleansing"....!


Be careful in leveling such assertions, because "word play and defintions" can be used by all parties involved, not just by you.



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 20-1-2004 by Seekerof]

Interesting tidbit... I work with a gentleman who used to be in the Isreali military (for more than the standard term). He would often describe how they'd knock on the door of suspected harborers of terrorists. They'd then ask them if they had any weapons, to turn them over, and they'd leave. Many times, they'd do just that... If they said they had no guns, despite intel to the contrary, they'd search the house, find the weapons, and often the terrorists they were looking for... That's when the bulldozers come in. They do it to destroy safehouses, and also to send a message that harboring these men is not a good idea... A message that seems continuously lost on the Palestinians in general, so the bulldozing will simply continue, until it gets through their thick heads...

No matter how justified you think you are....terrorism IS NOT and MUST NOT be allowed, to be a viable or acceptable form of achieving a political goal.

Really?
So, those restricted and barred from movement, who live within very finite borders, and have X number of relatives under the same restrictions ( yet know nothing of their affiliations ) who are forced to share the same space.....they need to get bulldozed?
When "Suspected" & "Potentially harbor" is all the justification needed, where is the parity?
There is a disturbing parrallel in that thinking - it's the same that says 41 shots into the body of a legal immigrant returning home from his 2nd job is "justified" because he's black in a bad neighborhood & possibly fit a profile ( see "Black").

I'd think that through, as support of said policy leaves some monumental gaps in logic; such as using sponge to plug a leak.

In the cases I've looked into, the bulldozing followed proof...i.e. the capture of fugitives, seizure of weapons, etc. not just "suspected" Though, it wouldn't surprise me if it occurred just as often with just suspected homes as well....*sigh*. I'm not saying Isreal has been a saint in this...far from it...

However, blatant targetting of civilians by suicide bombers cannot be tolerated....nor allowed to become a legitimate tool of negotiation... Sadly, it is too late for that though, as many internationally feel it's "ok" for them to do so, because they are outmatched militarily... When one is outmatched militarily, one usually sits down to talk.... Sadly, the Palestinians want nothing more than the abolishment of the state of Isreal, (as evidenced by their own charter), and that my friends, simply isn't likely to happen...

One radical faction wants the destruction of Israel.
Another radical faction wants the genocide of Palistinians.
One is in control. The other gains sympathy for their extremeism with every innocent death ( which is still 3 or 4 dead Palistinian for evey dead Israeli).
Crappy ratio to have in supporting your argument in a part of the world that put to law that whole "eye for an eye" law dogma into play!
If the center can gain back the Likud, there would have been peace already.

Seekerof,the topic in hand is about Israel bulldozing Palestinian buildings.I think it's very disingenuous of you to a) change the topic and,b) quibble about the language.

I think Ethinc Cleansing is the appropriate term.

This at a time when Israel is supposed to be withdrawing from illegal settlements.

AA is quite right.They bulldoze the homes of Palestinians so that more illegal settlements can be built.

By mentioning the holocaust in this thread you are blurring the original topic with irrelevence and drawing it down to the level of "they did this,they did that" which pervades in many topics about the region here.

Actually Sharon has been greatly criticized by groups such as yesha for dismantling some illegal settlements and preventing many others from being built. I guess no one would mention that though because personal opinions can cause clouded vision sometimes.

Oh and if it makes you happy to think that every single time the IDF knocks down a Palestinian house it's because they want the real estate and it's just a poor little palestinian family they're displacing... well enjoy the illusion. I suppose your belief is that not one of these places has been found to harbor people with weapons and bomb making equipment that will end up being used in a pizza store or dance club. Doesn't exist right? It's just those bored IDF bastards looking for something to do.

[Edited on 1-20-2004 by Djarums]

What about the idea that Israeli's were demolishing homes of palestinians that profited from suicide bombing attacks?

A number of the cases of homes being levelled have been in response to that act of profiting from suicide bombing.

On the other hand I do not like the idea of demolishing houses and frankly that behaviour is not accepted practice anywhere else in the world but neither is suicide bombings either.

Good question. What if the way things are working is that when a person commits a homicide bombing their family is rewarded with a new home and money. The israeli army then destroys that new home that was made from blood money to show the people no one is going to profit off of death. I'm not asking you to agree with this, but can you somewhat understand where they're coming from?

Originally posted by froder
Jewish protestors in Israel have been arrested and face possible prosecution after standing in front of bulldozers, preventing them from demolishing the home of Palestinians.

Note : Jewish protestors in Israel have been arrested ...

Not all Jews are on the side of the Israeli Government. Many abhor the Zionists and would be happy if they were all booted out of power. Then maybe there would be peace in the Middle East.

Jews against Zionism

Neturei Karta

Here.

This is from Neturai Karta's own site.

He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel.

Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us

You don't seem to have an understanding of why the Neturai Karta opposes the current government of Israel. I hope that you will see this as my effort to correct the misinformation that you believed until now.

Connecting it to the israel v. palestine conflict is simply mistaken logic.

[Edited on 1-20-2004 by Djarums]

Originally posted by Bout Time

1) ( which is still 3 or 4 dead Palistinian for evey dead Israeli).

2) If the center can gain back the Likud, there would have been peace already.

1) There is something that I don't like in your phrase.

2) What kind of peace ? The peace of the graves ?

Ethnic cleansing was the Euphamism used by the Nazi's for the holocaust.

It sounded better than genocide.

You do not have to kill anyone to be guilty of ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is forcefully changing the ethnic makeup by expelling people from their homeland based on race, religion, ethnicty, or any other social division.

For those who would say that only homes of terrorists are destroyed I present this map.




All of the blue triangles represent former Palestinian villages, and towns. Before Israel invaded in 1967 there were virtually zero Jews living in Palestine.

Every one represents a concerted act of ethnic cleansing. That was the goal, and the results. They may seem to be small acts by themselves, but together over the years imagine how it must have been for the Palestinians to slowly have there nation stolen from them one row of houses at a time.

Since 1967, the Israeli army has demolished or sealed (by filling all entrances and windows with concrete) more than 6,000 Palestinian homes, while 750,000 acres of Palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza have been confiscated and given to Jewish settlers. Some 2,700 of the house demolitions and sealings in the West Bank and Gaza occurred after 1987, and there are currently 2,000 demolition orders in effect waiting to be executed.

In addition to the home demolitions and land confiscations, Israel intentionally killed 25,000 Palestinian olive and fruit trees and bulldozed 10,000 acres of Palestinian agricultural land, for inexplicable "security reasons," in the last year alone.

www.pmwatch.org...

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Originally posted by Bout Time

1) ( which is still 3 or 4 dead Palistinian for evey dead Israeli).

2) If the center can gain back the Likud, there would have been peace already.

1) There is something that I don't like in your phrase.

2) What kind of peace ? The peace of the graves ?

Let me know what you need clarified:

1. Many more Arabs are dead from Israeli agression than jews dead from Arab agression

2. Moderates would repeal zionist settlemnts that are nothing more than illegal annexation.

over the years imagine how it must have been for the Palestinians to slowly have there nation stolen from them one row of houses at a time.

I wasn't aware they ever had a "nation" ....and they don't seem to ever want one either, given their continual sabatage of establishing a Palestinian state....

Originally posted by Bout Time

Let me know what you need clarified:

1. Many more Arabs are dead from Israeli agression than jews dead from Arab agression

2. Moderates would repeal zionist settlemnts that are nothing more than illegal annexation.

1) And ? Wouldn't be great if none of them were dieing but living in peace ? And when I write " peace ", I don't mean the peace of the graves.

2) When you write " moderates ", I assume you mean " progressives ". " Progressives " are dangerous and suicidal for the western world.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
2) When you write " moderates ", I assume you mean " progressives ". " Progressives " are dangerous and suicidal for the western world.

While it's been "conservatives" that have been in control of the World, Israel & the US, that have lead us to all this bloodshed & the brink of Nuke warfare in several theaters, you still believe progressive thought to be a danger!?!
OPEN ya EYES, MATE!

By the moderates in Israel, I mean those who support tapping an inexpensive labor pool that is starving for work and building two productive states into coexistence. People forget 1. Everyone loves their children
2. that desperation is the prelude to guerilla warfare - desperation that your children are going to not outlive you or live extremely worse off than you.
Look at any place where the destitute were given opportunity........it curtailed or eliminated agression completely.