Heavy Internet users unplugged by US cable company, page 5
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reply posted on 10-9-2007 @ 02:27 PM by Beachcoma
reply to post by jstnumber73



To my knowledge, they never mention it. At least not overtly. It's always hidden in the fine print. Dirty fellas. They never even mention its megabits, not megabytes. All they do is proclaim "Mb", and bank-in on your confusion.

[edit on 10-9-2007 by Beachcoma]


reply posted on 10-9-2007 @ 02:28 PM by scientist
Originally posted by stumason
Originally posted by tyranny22
OMG!

People pay for a service. Is it our fault other's don't take advantage of it as much as us? Provide more bandwidth. That's their JOB. Thats the service we pay for!


Its not that easy. Apart from putting more fibre in, which is expensive as hell, the only way is new technology which is only coming to frution now.


you bring up a GREAT point. All of the phone / cable services over the past decade were given HUGE tax breaks, because they promised they would take it upon themselves to upgrade all the networks to fiber optics and etc.

guess what.. that never happened. Here is a link and explanation:

www.niemanwatchdog.org...



The head of Teletruth, a consumer advocacy group, writes that in spite of huge payments and other financial incentives to the country’s monopolistic telecommunication giants, the United States is 16th in broadband Internet technology and falling. How did things go wrong in your state?

By 2006, according to telecommunication companies’ own documents, 86 million customers in the United States should have received 45 Mbps service. In fact, South Korea and Japan do even better: they routinely offer 100 Mbps connections in both directions, uploading and downloading, for around $40 per month. But in the United States, the best connections top out at 1/3 this speed and cost 400% more—and very few places even have access to the new fiber-optic services being offered. The United States once led the world in Web technology. What happened?

The answer is, the merger of the phone companies that control the phone networks decreased competition. Instead of deploying the high-speed fiber-optic lines they promised, they were content to collect profits, tinker with existing copper connections instead of rewiring, and roll out inferior DSL services. The FCC defines anything above 200 Kbps as broadband (1000 Kbps = 1 Mbps), allowing them to claim that Americans have broadband access. However, this definition is a politically-driven embarrassment for technologists, the equivalent of two tin-cans with string.

Phone companies have documented plans to wire 86 million homes with fiber optics by 2006 but the United States had only 38 million high-speeds line of any sort at the end 2004. And "high speed" in this case is defined as anything faster than 200 Kbps in one direction. The most common U.S. broadband access runs at 768 Kbps top speed in one direction, hundreds of times slower than the routine 100 Mbps, bi-directional service in other countries, even though consumers in those countries pay about the same price: an average of $40 a month.


so again, the problem is NOT with the consumers, but with the companies and the government that let them get by with these lies (that actually cost consumers LOTS of extra money).

I would LOVE to see someone argue this away...


reply posted on 11-9-2007 @ 03:02 AM by stumason
Originally posted by scientist
you bring up a GREAT point. All of the phone / cable services over the past decade were given HUGE tax breaks, because they promised they would take it upon themselves to upgrade all the networks to fiber optics and etc.

guess what.. that never happened. Here is a link and explanation:

www.niemanwatchdog.org...

---------------------

so again, the problem is NOT with the consumers, but with the companies and the government that let them get by with these lies (that actually cost consumers LOTS of extra money).

I would LOVE to see someone argue this away...


All the networks are fibre optic, except for the last leg into the consumer house. If your on cable, it will be fibre from the street cabinet. Fibre doesn't magically equal high speed, you know. An electrical connection can run up too 140 Mb/s.

There are plenty of technical reasons why you cannot have fibre into your house and if you want someone to "explain this away", I'll be more than happy, seeing as it is my job.


reply posted on 11-9-2007 @ 04:51 AM by stumason
Originally posted by scientist
I'm not interested in technical reasons for anything, when promises were already made:


Well, if your not interested in "why" fibre to your house is technically a complete waste of time and is so cost prohibitive, then why the bitching?

In order to use fibre, you need an optical device to send and recieve the signal. Also, like I said, a electircal conection using coaxial cable can give you a speed of 140Mb/s. The Mux in the cabinet will be connected to the network via an STM-1 link, which can be either fibre or electrical, it does not matter. However, if you want a a superfast connection into your home, the cabinet itself would require even more bandwidth, requiring more fibre to connect it to the network.

The cost of laying fibre in the UK comes to about $90,000/KM. Not sure about the US, but I would assume it is around the same mark. Now, imagine this cost on a national scale. No Telecomms firm in the world can afford to fibre every household., especially in today's climate where margins are shrinking and cost cutting is being done. The bubble burst of 2001 really hurt the Telecoms industry.

Firms are improving bandwidth, but this is using DWDM technology on the Core network to maximise existing fibre capacity without laying more cables.. This is being done now. But until the core network is upgraded, it is stupid to allow people to download 100's of GB's each without asking them to pay attention to the fair use policy. Even with the increasing bandwidth, you won't just be able to download excessive amounts as there is only finite capacity.

Originally posted by scientist

Phone companies have documented plans to wire 86 million homes with fiber optics by 2006



that doesnt say anything about a "last leg." In fact, it says the opposite, it says HOMEs will get fiber optic connections. Now I can understand why we haven't and how much it would cost, and the technical implications, etc. etc.


When was that plan put in place? Do you know anything about the industry at all? I bet that plan was announced pre-2001.

Originally posted by scientist
The bottom line is that this thread is about people who hog too much bandwidth, yet the same company complaining made a legal obligation to have faster speeds anyway, which would have rendered the original bandwidth negligible.


Not so. Bandwidth usage and speed are two different things. You can have a uber-fast connection, but you'll find that no matter what speed you are given, there will always be a limit on exactly how much you can download. I will bet that those "lucky" orientals with their 100Mb/s connections probably still have usage caps and a fair use policy. There is, after all, only a finite amount of bandwidth to go around.

But, as you said, your not interested in the technical reasons, so I', not going to bore you. Instead, just accept that you can have a fast speed, but you cannot download 100's of GB's a month without someone complaining your hogging bandwidth. All your doing is taking bandwidth away from other network users. There is no such thing as unlimited bandwidth.



reply posted on 11-9-2007 @ 05:44 AM by scientist
ah, the rare on-topic, logical debate. Thank you for the response.

Originally posted by stumason
Originally posted by scientist
I'm not interested in technical reasons for anything, when promises were already made:


Well, if your not interested in "why" fibre to your house is technically a complete waste of time and is so cost prohibitive, then why the bitching?


OK, let me be more reasonable. I understand the downfalls of fibre, and the implications of converting our system over to it. The most obvious answer is a hybrid of copper and fibre. There are already small ISPs that offer this, but again the major companies all promised to develop this on their own, hence tax cuts, and the mergers. Those mergers were only allowed, because they were going to take the costs of R&D, and implementation on their own - so that the government did not have to intervene.

Well, it never happened, since they have a monopoly on the industry. only a few small, local companies like SureWest offer consumer level connection speeds that are up to par with th rest of the world:


SureWest is able to offer this unmatched Internet speed by delivering 100 Mbps of bi-directional bandwidth to each customer's home on its FTTP platform, leaving room to bundle video and voice services as well. With over 190,000 total marketable homes over its combined copper and fiber Broadband networks, SureWest can offer the 50-meg product to 52 percent of its Broadband service territory.




a electircal conection using coaxial cable can give you a speed of 140Mb/s.


Right, but as soon as the connection goes to wire, it's now bottlenecking the speed for all other connections in the particular leg of the network. That't the hybrid part they never did. Also, we are so far behind, do you think 140 is really going to cut it in another 5 years even? 10?



The cost of laying fibre in the UK comes to about $90,000/KM. Not sure about the US, but I would assume it is around the same mark. Now, imagine this cost on a national scale.


Right, which was the incentive for the tax breaks / merger (the ONLY reason the merger was allowed to occur between AT&T, MCI and Bell) in the first place - the networks would develop this on their own, as opposed to government funding (we have a war to fight! but i digress..)



Even with the increasing bandwidth, you won't just be able to download excessive amounts as there is only finite capacity.


care to explain? I don't understand what you were getting at.



When was that plan put in place? Do you know anything about the industry at all? I bet that plan was announced pre-2001.


i am not ignorant, if that's what you were getting at. How about some sources:

www.isp-planet.com...

The Bells promised fiber optics, an open network with 45 Mbps to every home, collected hundreds of billions of dollars, and failed to deploy. In some cases, they even built advanced networks before the passage of favorable legislation and then ripped them out after the laws had passed.


Now, regardless of when this was announced, or how the industry changed - it's quite obvious that it was never the intention to develop the networks as promised. It was a financial loophole, that was exploited for profit (the merger!), and ultimately (as we are now seeing as the US sinks in connection speed compared to the rest of the world) will hurt all the consumers here. The businesses that can afford the high speed connections have nothing to worry about, but PROMISES WERE MADE!



Bandwidth usage and speed are two different things. You can have a uber-fast connection, but you'll find that no matter what speed you are given, there will always be a limit on exactly how much you can download. I will bet that those "lucky" orientals with their 100Mb/s connections probably still have usage caps and a fair use policy. There is, after all, only a finite amount of bandwidth to go around.


i fail to see how this is relevant. If ISPs are sending out notices and charging more for their "unlimited" plans, then blaming it on over-usage, then it's just as much their fault for not being able to handle a single person's bitTorrent. We're not talking about 50 people using torrents on one line, but maybe 2-3 people max using torrents from a single connection.


But, as you said, your not interested in the technical reasons, so I', not going to bore you.


Only reason I don't care about the technical details in this particular context, is because that's the exact reason for the tax breaks / merger (the ONLY reason the merger was allowed to occur between AT&T, MCI and Bell). It's technical, and expensive, and complicated. So thats why the plan existed in the first place! $200 billion dollar plan! That's not a small fund by any means, and would have been more than capable of upgrading what we have now.



Instead, just accept that you can have a fast speed, but you cannot download 100's of GB's a month without someone complaining your hogging bandwidth.


lol, another classic ATS assumption. You couldn't be farther from the truth. see, i have the added bonus of being a third party observer. I have no personal stake in this, other than seeing 10 years into the future where we (consumers) are paying out the ass, just to keep up with connections overseas. Other than that, I couldn't care less, as I download 300+ GB per month, and have done so for the past few years without a single complaint, hiccup or extra fee. So don't worry about me, please just read that link I posted.

[edit on 11-9-2007 by scientist]


reply posted on 11-9-2007 @ 05:46 AM by scientist
Here's another one after you are finished:

www.isp-planet.com...



summary of the SBC and Verizon mergers and their harm to fiber-optic deployments...

During the early 1990's, the phone companies made commitments, by state, to rewire America...

Pacific Bell was supposed to spend $16 billion and rewire 5.5 million households
Ameritech was supposed to spend $6 billion to fund over 6 million homes

after EVERY merger, SBC closed down the existing fiber optic deployments, including all of the work in California, Connecticut, and Ameritech's five states.

Verizon (Bell Atlantic) did the same thing. The company promised to spend $11 billion and rewire 8.75 million households by 2000, but after the Bell Atlantic-NYNEX merger, every state halted their state fiber optic plans—from Massachusetts to New Jersey, Rhode Island and Pennsylvania

This was 45 Mbps, bi-directional, 500 channel, fiber to the home services, that were supposed to be open to competition and ubiquitously deployed.

Combined, Verizon and SBC were to spend $48.9 billion and have 36.5 million households by 2000. But there is nothing to show for it. 26 states were impacted by two companies' bad decisions.

Instead, America is 16th in broadband because these companies didn't deliver, yet convinced regulators they would rewire America, during each merger. Overall, the Bells should have had 86 million homes already wired as customers paid over $200 billion for networks they never received.



reply posted on 11-9-2007 @ 06:24 AM by stumason
I don't see the US ever having "fibre to home". The most logical and cost effective thing to have would be to have the fibre going to to the local DP (cabinet or what have you) and then having an Ethernet connection (copper wire) to the household. Ethernet can give you High speed over wire. This is what the Next Generation networks are working towards.

Even in the UK with it's concentrated population, I doubt we'll ever have fibre to home. But then, we get damn good speeds off our ISP's anyway.


Right, but as soon as the connection goes to wire, it's now bottlenecking the speed for all other connections in the particular leg of the network. That't the hybrid part they never did. Also, we are so far behind, do you think 140 is really going to cut it in another 5 years even? 10?


I think you misunderstand. Personally, I have cable broadband which is 20Mb/s right now. Using that same connection, which is coaxial to the cabinet, I could, in theory, get 140Mb/s from that same wire. Then at the cab, they would multiplex my 140Mb/s connection (STM-1) into a larger STM-4 or STM-16 fibre connection into the network. A 140Mb/s connection to household would not bottleneck the network, provided that the DP was upgraded with the necessary multiplexors.

In any case, even if they only provided a 140Mb/s connection from the DP into the Core network, then only I would be bottlenecked (and other users in my street)

With regards to Network capacity, you have to remember that Telco's don't exist to serve the public only. Businesses payan order of magnitude more than consumers for bandwidth and are prioritised. Currently, core network rings run at speeds of around 10Gb/s (STM-64). With new DWDM technology, the capacity will increase with more wavelenghts being added to existing fibre connections. Only now are we seeing connections like STM-256, which is around 40Gb/s, on the core network.

There used to be an over capacity on networks, but increasing demand placed by consumers and business, plus falling margins, increased competition and what have you have rectricted bandwidth availability.

Like I said, if they ever got round to fibreing the entire CONUS, I would be amazed. The cost alone would be staggering. If they promised it return for tax cuts, then that is bad, but still, remember that when these promises where made, the Telecoms industry was booming and everyone had high hopes. Now we are being realistic and just cannot afford to do it. We would never turn a profit and go bankrupt if we had to fibre up every household.

As for the amount downloaded. I personally download around 30-50GB a month and havent heard a peep from my ISP. This particular areticle has been blown out of proportion and these are people who can and do hog all the bandwidth in the local ring, preventing anyone else getting the advertised spped, which in my opinion, is much more important than wether you can download 400GB of porno a month.
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