jesus did exist, face it!

Dose it really matter if Jesus existed or not?
What matter above all is the sign that are every where embedded in our reality. No one can dined the truth that lie deep inside of our consciousness.
You can choose to search the truth with your mind and never let your heart speak.
You can choose to find the truth with your heart and let your mind analyze all.
Some thing has happen when the Bible has emerged. For the true seekers they find peace between half truth scriptures in this book. For the manipulator they find great tools to seclude man’s soul from the light.
Now in the dawn of changes, we have the freedom to interpret in many way the righteousness hiding in the Bible. It is not about responsibility or been right or wrong, but more about what is there for each of us as individual undivided, in those writing.
No one can denied some of the must enlighten words in the Bible, I for one don’t really care if Jesus did write them or not. I care more about the meaning of this words threw my life and the life of all around me.
Soon the word Love will have the long a waited meaning revealed for us all so to embrace all our differences and sorrow.
This is what I think when I have read this thread.

Kacou

Okay.. Sorry I got here so late.. I have read through all the posts, and I wanted to point out something I found rather hilarious....

Originally posted by lenisey
......
so i took a chance and explained that if she chose to have complete faith
and believe in the Lord , and also in my abilitys to create a miracle
through Him ......

Talk about self gratification....

In other words, if she believed in the Lord, AND you, then you could help her...

Why not help people that don't believe? Does this not go against what Jesus taught?

Why throw the "my abilities" part in there?

Let me get this right... Your powers magically made this man appear out of nowhere with something you were looking for...

Yeah....

BACK ON TOPIC

I believe that a MAN named Jesus existed. I believe a MAN named Jesus taught about loving one another for the better of human kind. I believe Jesus was a great MAN. However, putting my faith in a religion such as Christianity that was created from nothing but legends and precedents, for the benefit of a political system, would be a big mistake.

I was raised in the church. Thankfully, I learned very quick to question things. Why do you think you are suddenly an outcast when you start asking questions that they can't answer? It's because you cannot be controlled. All you have to do is look at what has happened in history simply because folks were "non-believers."

I continue to love everyone, and try my best to teach love and tolerance. I claim no special abilities. But yet, I am the bad guy because I question the majority?

I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.....

This debate over Jesus being the son of God is laughable. Both sides get so far to the extreme that they let their emotions blind them.

We are all the children of something. Whether you believe that is Jesus' father, or simply a universal force of unexplainable evolutionary patterns, ask yourself this:

What does arguing about it accomplish? Why do you feel the need to be right?

Meh.. This is why I am ready to die. I am content that I have left enough of my own mark on individuals on this planet that, hopefully, when my essence is extinguished, I will not be forgotten. Whatever happens after I leave this world, so be it.

Don't get me wrong. I love life. But I do know that I would rather live each day like it was my last, rather than worry about who's God is the right one, or if "he" even exists......



[edit on 27-8-2007 by Azazelus]

History is written by the winners. I don't think I can believe history anymore, it's so easy for the government and medias duo to get away with modifying history, with historians' muffled voices screaming behind, normal people can't know. The medias and government duo get away with so much lies. By example, there was a studies about vitamin E and C, women were taking those vitamins for x time, and it was shown to reduce the risk of heart disease by 30%. However, some subjects decided to not take the vitamins, therefore their heart disease risk didn't drop, and the medias used that flaw to tell, on ALL of the big newspapers on the planet, that vitamin E and C was useless in preventing heart disease. That's how medias and governments work, they twist reality, they lie, to reach their objective, in this example, to keep the population sick and buying drugs.

The catholic religion was a tactic of control for so long in history, it could have been faked a long time ago and we wouldn't know. Jesus existed or not, it doesn't matter for me. If Jesus existed, then he was a man who said love and peace, obvious isn't, just do that. If he didn't exist, then nothing happens. Christian religion is still as corrupted, and power hungry as ever, still as ridiculous and stupid in my eyes.

reply to post by Azazelus


I find myself agreeing with you. All this arguing really avails us nothing. I haven't seen one mind changed here on either side. Christians should know better in the first place (myself included). The bible tells us, if our message isn't received, knock the dirt from our shoes and move on.
Some might take that as an insult; but if you look at it another way, maybe the Lord was telling us that we would be wasting time arguing.
I'll take this opportunity to apologize to anyone I might have offended with arguments and thank all those who have furthered my education. Everyday is a learning experience for me. May all be well.

[as far as my education, I am specifically referring to NASA and the Bible being an urban legend. Haha! I fell for that hook-line-and-sinker. Never occurred to me to check it out. But thanks for the heads-up!]

[edit on 8/27/2007 by janasstar]

3points...

1. Jesus was not mentioned in many books or writings because Al Gore had not invented the Internet yet, This is why his stories are very "local" in nature...

2. Most scientists and media are non-believers, So they look to disprove the Bible. You can take the same evidence and use it to prove the teachings of the Bible.

3. If believing in a higher power might get you to a better place after you die, and not believing will either 1. Not make a difference, or 2. Damn you to Hell.... Why would you NOT believe? You have nothing to loose, except maybe FOREVER.

Originally posted by Twilly
3. If believing in a higher power might get you to a better place after you die, and not believing will either 1. Not make a difference, or 2. Damn you to Hell.... Why would you NOT believe? You have nothing to loose, except maybe FOREVER.

Pascals wager, flawed. Once you consider all the other heaven/hell religions, your chances of "Salvation" are extremely slim.

Research showed that the gospels are socially and archeologically correct, which would suggest that there is good degree of accuracy in the writings. Yes i believe jesus did very much exist.
Two researches were done two different groups in the uk.
Both jews and palestineans believe in the existence of jesus and neither believe in jesus religiously.

Originally posted by thesun
Research showed that the gospels are socially and archeologically correct, which would suggest that there is good degree of accuracy in the writings. Yes i believe jesus did very much exist.

Two researches were done two different groups in the uk.

You have a source for said research?

Originally posted by thesun
Research showed that the gospels are socially and archeologically correct, which would suggest that there is good degree of accuracy in the writings. Yes i believe jesus did very much exist.

Two researches were done two different groups in the uk.
Both jews and palestineans believe in the existence of jesus and neither believe in jesus religiously.

I really hate having to repeat myself but here goes:

Originally posted by grover
Granted there are references to Christians, and to their Christ scattered through out ancient writings... HOWEVER they do not de facto prove the existence of Jesus, rather the existence of a cult centered around him.

Also many of the so-called references to Jesus in for example Joesphus are widely considered to be later insertions by monks who were copying the texts and have no historical validity whatsoever.

Also as for the accuracy of the new testament... its very first assertions about a poll tax and the need for Joseph and his family to Bethleham to take part in it has been proven false. There are no verifying Roman imperial or provincial records for such a poll during that time frame, not to mention, the Romans did not require you to return to your home town to be counted, they punched your nose wherever you were.

Also there are no records whatsoever of a slaughter of the innocents ordered by Herod and these people were meticulious record keepers.

I highly recommend Robin Lane Foxes "Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible" he is a first rate classical scholar. It is a kind of companion volume (in my mind anyway plus it came out later) to him masterpiece "Pagans and Christians: Religion and the Religious Life from the 2nd to the 4th Century A.D. When the Gods of Olympus Lost their Dominion and Christianity with the Triumph of Constantine Triumphed in the Mediterranean World."

Amazing works both of them, well written and miticliously researched and not fluff but serious scholarship.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by open mind
I am fed up with people denying jesus' existence, whether you are religous or not their are plenty of non religious sources from people that we KNOW exist, claiming the Jesus existed. Whether you believe in his teachings or not, is up to you.

There's absolutely no, undeniable proof that Jesus existed. I am ruled mostly by logical calculations. From all the info I have gathered, I can logically calculate that Jesus' existence is very questionable, even highly doubtful...and I'm speaking about the great man they speak of in the bible, not the man that probably existed. Hell, I'm sure Jesus exists now.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by sdrawkcab]

Jesus existed? Without a doubt. Did the biblical Jesus exist? There's absolutely no real data point to lead to that conclusion.

You have a collection of books (much like Lord of the Rings, except far more incoherent and contradictory) that states such a person existed. I need more.

Originally posted by Azazelus
Okay.. Sorry I got here so late.. I have read through all the posts, and I wanted to point out something I found rather hilarious....

Originally posted by lenisey
......
so i took a chance and explained that if she chose to have complete faith
and believe in the Lord , and also in my abilitys to create a miracle
through Him ......

Talk about self gratification....

In other words, if she believed in the Lord, AND you, then you could help her...

Why not help people that don't believe? Does this not go against what Jesus taught?

Why throw the "my abilities" part in there?

Let me get this right... Your powers magically made this man appear out of nowhere with something you were looking for...

Yeah....
[edit on 27-8-2007 by Azazelus]

really, now, did i sound as if i thought i was "magic"
sorry....how embarrassing is that!!!???

First of all-My "ability" happens to be the ability to talk to God
very easily, since childhood
it is not a superpower, nor do i ever really benefit
personally at all by it, (just spiritually)

You cannot help anyone who doesn't believe by praying.
it is part of that "free will" clause
you have to invite the Lord in ,
He will not barge in uninvited
this is why disbelievers do not feel Him as us believers do

And , no ,
no magic...... i am assuming .it was just a man who was donating something
but i do know that God guided him there

why?
because otherwise my life must be full of amazing miraculous coincidences
i have prayed and helped many people, and the exact help requested would come
i have asked the Lord for guidance and confirmation that i was
on the right path in my interpretation of the bible
( i do not believe in churches)
( well they are nice social gatherings...)
and found an article the next day for a class starting up ,
free, taught by 2 prophets
who will be reading "revelations" and explaining it , teaching it
I was the only one there the 1st day
they opened the door and told me

"He told us that the 1st day-only 1 would come.....
she will bring the others- it is what she does"

i know it is way out there
but it is 100 % true....by the 3rd class there were over 20 people
It lasted 1 month and i learned soooo much

i do not call this magic
i call this "god"


renee

[edit on 28-8-2007 by lenisey]

[edit on 28-8-2007 by lenisey]

[edit on 28-8-2007 by lenisey]

Originally posted by open mind
I am fed up with people denying jesus' existence, whether you are religous or not their are plenty of non religious sources from people that we KNOW exist, claiming the Jesus existed. Whether you believe in his teachings or not, is up to you.

The eleventh commandment should have been "KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELF"

It's just plain rude to impose your beliefs in imaginary beings on others or to assert your views in such a manner as to attempt to leave no room for argument.

I believe in dinosaurs and evolution and I have proof...real proof proof...not hearsay stories and or fictional books written by story tellers.

Your confusing facts with faith.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by open mind

 

ok, show me the historical evidence to back up the existence of jesus.

Text from the Talmud:
On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retorted: Do you suppose he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government. (Sanhedrin 43a)

There would be no reason for the Rabbis of the Talmud to write this on a fictional person.

reply to post by diedagaincraftsmen


An ancient text is not historical proof. Where are the crucifixion records? Romans were HUGE records keepers, their bureaucracy was as large and cumbersome as ours in the US, per capita.

Where is the tomb? Let's have some DNA, or something to that effect.

Writings in an ancient book are NOT proof. By this reasoning, Tiamat, Marduk, Baal, et al. were also real. Do you believe they existed?

All Christians are only one step away from being atheists. They exclude all other gods but their one. Just take that final step. If Zeus doesn't exist, Allah, Quan Yin, etc., don't exist, then how can you be sure your own god does?

You can't. Because there is no more evidence for that god and his erstwhile "son" than there is for Quetzalcoatl -- who, by the way, also has ancient texts and stone carvings claiming he was real.

Ok, so when I knew I needed God because I dam near did everything there was to do and realized that I am not in complete control (i.e. death, health, fate of others, and so forth), I turned to the Bible and began to practice the precepts.

After 14 months of following the Bible and believing in it wholeheartedly, I did a water baptism. 5 weeks after the water Baptism, this essence or spirit indwelled me over and over again making me go through Ego Death and Enlightenment.

It was upon the Spiritual Enlightenment that I began to question the Government/Authority and other people who call themselves Christians. My questions raised eyebrows and anger at "the church," and every time I brought up Zeitgeist style questions it always ended up in anger and Christian historical sources, when I knew that non-Christian would not respect Christian sources.

At the end of the day I will say this, after Undergoing this Spiritual Enlightenment (which caused me to quite my job for 6 months to get acquanted with this new way of being), to this day I reject and am against the US and World Government, all forms of politics, and am considered an outsider to most Churches and quote and unquote "Christians"

But I say this, Jesus in his own days was hated by the polticians, Priests & Rabbi's, and all other authority including the local Churches/Temples.

Also, the Old Testament wasn't Christian before Christ came and it predicts Jesus' comming and performing miracles and all this other stuff that he did which equals to astronomical odds of fulfilling most of these predictions.

If Christianity was implemeted as a form of Mass populace control, it fails in my regards because I know who the enemy is and the Spiritual Enlightenment I recieved led to my freedom from this world and all the attachments around us.

The funny thing about the Zeitgeist is that the 3 parts involved in the movie try to discredit Christianity (also the Bible indirectly), credit 911 with a work done by our Gov't, and predict the future of a one world Orwelian society. Funny thing is that in the Book of Daniel and some of Revelations predict a one world government/one currency and some sort of Universal Mark (chip? barcode?) with which all must have in order to buy/sell and so on.

SO the same source that's being discredited, actually upholds the last part of the movie.
_______________________
Now speaking from an unbiased angle/view/phlisophy, based on some of the information from the Zeigeist Movie we can come to the following conclusions. Either:

1. Jesus, Buddha, Mithra and all the other spiritual charchaters described did not exist. Therefor all are myths and none of the paths they created are paths to God.

2. Jesus, Buddha, Mithra and all the other spiritual charchaters described did exist. Therefor all are paths they created and are paths to God.

3. Only 1 is true and the rest are myths.

4. Only 1 is a myth and the rest are true.

5. Some are true and some are myths.

The Mithra charachter actually has very little in common with Jesus as stated by Zeigeist, so there is at least one source I have done research on that has shown me that at least one topic is taken out of context. Mithra was actually born out of rock/mountain, so when he came out he created a cave. He was never crucified for the sins of the world and so forth.


Anyway, at least for me, based on my Spiritual Enlightenment (which I claim was a result of a combination of water baptism and following Biblical precepts), I know that there is at least some truth in The Bible, if not all of it.

The mass Control theory used by Christianity can obvisouly be true as we see a stronghold of fundamentalist views incorporated into the political system, but the truth is, if you also reach this Enlightenment thru the Bible, you will see through all of this like glass and be against it.

As a Baha'i' I believe that God has repeatedly sent messengers to mankind at roughly 1000 year intervals with a progressively richer and more complex messege suited to the times and place and man's understanding. We rever Jesus and Muhammad and all of the other prophets including of course our own Baha'u'llah, (1817/1892) who unlike the others predicts another prophet after him, in about 1000 years to build on what he and all the other messengers have taught.

There really is very little difference in any of the spiritual teachings,, what are are addressed to the times or are metaphors.

All paths lead to God if approached with sincerity and faith and heart. None are excluded.

Originally posted by diedagaincraftsmen
Text from the Talmud:
On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retorted: Do you suppose he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government. (Sanhedrin 43a)

Was Jesus "hanged" according to you?
Was there a 40 day warning?


The Talmud also says that Jesus :

* was a black magician
* learned magic in egypt
* stole it by hiding a magic scroll in his thigh when sneaking past the magic guard dogs
* worshipped a brick-bat
* was conceived during menstruation
* was a bastard son of a Roman soldier
* had 5 disciples
* was stoned to death in Lydda


So, diedagaincraftsmen, how does all that match your "historical Jesus" ?


Iasion

Originally posted by thesun
Research showed that the gospels are socially and archeologically correct,

Wrong.

The Gospels have many errors - geography and culture.

Modern NT scholars agree the Gospels were written by people who were NOT familiar with the culture and region.


Iasion

reply to post by DisabledVet

The eleventh commandment should have been "KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELF"...It's just plain rude to impose your beliefs in imaginary beings on others or to assert your views in such a manner as to attempt to leave no room for argument.

It would be wrong to be rude or impose beliefs on someone else but to share knowledge and/or answer questions about God is something all Christians should do.

I believe in dinosaurs and evolution and I have proof...real proof proof...not hearsay stories and or fictional books written by story tellers.

The bible also tells us about dinosaurs. It tells us this world is billions of years old. It is not fictional. There is NO evolution, as far as one species becoming another. That is a theory, an incorrect theory.

Your confusing facts with faith.

Science and God agree in many ways.