Two suspicious guys wanted by FBI

Originally posted by SportyMB
Thick skin is a must. Grow it or go home

No it isnt. Not according to the threads started by the owners of this site who insist that civility is MANDATORY.

Originally posted by dgtempe

No it isnt. Not according to the threads started by the owners of this site who insist that civility is MANDATORY.

Yeah, I would assume they thought not making false accusations against other members would be a foundation to civility.

Congratulations, cavscout, through your own slimy manipulation of the facts you've not only managed to place the blame of disruption of this thread on some one who DIDN'T make a false statement against all the other posters with a differing viewpoint in this thread, but you allow one already apparently confused person to get to feel like a victim because they got called on their false statement.

I have actually given agent violet the benefit of the doubt that she is NOT an habitual misrepresenter and assumed that this was a one-off subconscious effort to misrepresent the differing viewpoint in a manner that would make it look distasteful while making her own stance more appealing. Since I don't know her posting practices or history, I will continue to assume that was the case - just a human error in judgment.

But I won't change my posting style for her or you. Since my post was well within the confines of the T&C - and hers was on the border of violating those rules - I'll continue on as I have. And I will call them as I see them.

[edit on 8-23-2007 by Valhall]

Look, No matter what happened on 9/11 or what your opinions are of it you need to understand the facts. Us Americans, You and I have had a war thrust upon us. Who is to blame? I don't care right now. What we do know is that one day some pissed off Arab extremist are going to try to attack here in the U.S. and what you are most likely to see are smaller attacks like the failed attempts in England a few months ago. Yes that was the real deal, No C.I.A or MI6 guy is going to set himself on fire or blow himself up. Bush is not trying to protect us or he would close the boarders now, However I do know that most not all of the men and women in the U.S. Intelligence services are. They are small compared to what they need to protect and without our tips and alerts their job becomes almost impossible. This country needs to get back to where we were days after 9/11 United as one, Not divided as we are now. One way or the other we need that to survive. Americans need to also demand that we get back to following the constitution or we the people means nothing as it almost does now.

Vall,

My comments were not directed at you personally. I am like you, i like to tell it like it is. I was just commenting across the board that we're all supposed to be nice and bite the bullet I feel like you and it was just an overall comment. I hope no offense was taken.

Beleive me, i understand what you mean. I curse like a sailor sometimes when i'm on here and i wish i could say what i really wanted. I commend you for not holding back. I have to restrain myself or that Spanish temper takes over and i could say something i'll regret.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by dgtempe]

ON TOPIC: I think it is fair to question these men so long as that doesn’t mean sending them to a camp in the Caribbean for evaluation. I think they just want to talk to them. I don’t think anybody’s rights will be violated just talking to these men for a short time. If they still feel concerned after talking to them they can “get a warrant.”

As to the concerns of those who think this is evidence of a police state and that the FBI just wants to violate these men’s rights: obviously your fears are bred from the past and current actions of the Federal Government and you have every right to be suspicious of that government. Particularly the FBI. Anyone who doesn’t think the FBI is capable of severely violating the rights of Americans needs to look into Waco and Ruby Ridge (yeah, I know, ancient history) and what one FBI sniper named Lon Horiuchi did in the name of national security.

You fears are to be expected and your vigilance commended, however in this case it appears to me that the FBI is justified in wanting to have a little chit chat with these two.



OFF TOPIC:

Originally posted by Valhall
Congratulations, cavscout, through your own slimy manipulation of the facts you've not only managed to place the blame of disruption of this thread on some one who DIDN'T make a false statement against all the other posters with a differing viewpoint in this thread

No, not quite. But thanks for noticing.

I blame BOTH of you, and MYSELF (and others) for getting this off topic. I actually agree with you that she was wrong. And I agree with her that you were wrong.

Two wrongs don’t make a right (my Mom taught me that one, thanks Mom.)

You know you could have made your point without pissing anyone off. You chose not to. That may be OK with everyone and the TOS, but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t have said it with more tact.

I don’t think I have shared a thread with you in a couple of years, but from what I remember you are way more than smart enough to get your point across in such a way as to not disrupt a thread (yes, I already know it was everyone else who disrupted the thread.)

Come to think of it, I can remember other times when I have seen you post in such a blunt manner. I guess that is just Valhall. And you are obviously an asset to ATS, so carry on. Who am I to criticize any member for not being nice? We all know cavscout can be a downright disagreeable ass. I think I have had 4 or 5 warns over the last 1000 posts myself, so who am I to tell another member how to behave?

My apologies Valhall.

Peace.

Edit to add: After reading my post I realized that last part may sound sarcastic, and that was not my intent.


[edit on 23-8-2007 by cavscout]

as stated by valhall(sp?):

Yeah, I would assume they thought not making false accusations against other members would be a foundation to civility.

actually I thought that I didn't make a false statement rather just an opinion; in fact this is what I said:

what is most disappointing is that a large group of people participating on this thread have thus far applied a 'guilty until proven innocent' mentality imo.. This shows me that we are indeed moving towards a police state unfortunately.

hence the imo, meant in my opinion.
so as everyone can see, I stated that it was simply my opinion, indeed my opinion may have been wrong however it may have been correct.

however, I will no longer address this topic being as that it is indeed off-topic.

So now on topic...
I do believe that the OPs link is vague open for speculation, there is probably more accurate links that have surfaced since the start of this thread. So my speculation is that the 'wanted for questioning' is based upon them being middle eastern looking. However I may be completely incorrect, but based solely on the link supplied, that was my original stance. And it is purely speculation at this point. However if we see more current news or sources regarding the situation dealing with these people, I may have a diffent view. As someone alluded to, it would be a tragedy if another terrorist attack did take place in the U.S, imo.

Originally posted by agent violet
my speculation is that the 'wanted for questioning' is based upon them being middle eastern looking

Yeah, but do you really think the FBI would waste resources on a manhunt based on them being "Middle Eastern looking?"

If that is what they want to waste their time and our money on then I know some brown skinned people in head scarves that keep giving me dirty looks when I drive past their house.

BTW, having been to the Middle East, I have to say that these men don’t look like the Middle Easterners I have seen, and I have seen thousands.

I suppose I could believe they look Israeli or Iranian, but not Arab.

cavscout i agree, imo they dont look to be of middle-eastern descent. but as a poster said they look like they may be of latin descent or of italian descent, if not american descent or of indian descent. Actually its hard to be finite and say for sure what descent people are now a days, imo.

well, i do think that them being 'middle eastern' looking played a part (not to mention who decides on if they appear middle eastern looking). but i definitely think that the vagueness of them 'acting suspicious was a large part' too, imo.

Well, I don't need an apology from you, cavscout. But I would offer that this thread has never gotten off topic. The core issue here is that there were two men that have exhibited behavior that has aroused suspicion in both crew and passengers of this ferry to the point they asked the authorities to look into it. NOW, there are two possible discussions around that set of circumstances:

1. There you go and let's update the thread when more information is available. While probably an ended thread already (because it seems these instances just "fade away") even if more information came out it would be a slow and sometimes extremely uneventful thread.

2. What do we think of this whole situation? That is a more interesting thread, and the one that has developed.

Now, upfront, on thread 2 above, I stated, I don't understand those who think that looking into this is some kind of overkill or police state type of movement. Didn't make judgment, just said - I don't understand you. But the counterpoint couldn't accept that there are those of us who think the prudent measure is to look these guys up and ask a few questions. The opposing view decided to paint those of us that think the reporting and investigating of this situation as the prudent measure to take as something we are not - at least by our statements - by twisting our statements and make a false accusation against us - painting us in an extreme position.

There is no way for thread 2 above to continue in a positive manner until the disengenuous statement is eradicated from the discussion. If it is not put down as an unfounded biasing influence in the discussion, the discussion is tainted from that point on. Else, we have to revert to thread 1 above -which isn't much to discuss until the powers that be give us more informaiton, which has proven to not be a good possibility.

This is an important issue. Because this tendency (and I will refrain for now from calling it a tactic) has caused many a thread to die either from the shear bias that was inserted by the offender and then not challenged but instead allowed to fester as if it was a truth, or by the offender (and the staff complicit at times) calling the thread derailed. Bullcrap! And again I use that term with joy and freedom! If I cannot demand the retraction of an unfounded accusation in a discussion - then kill the thread for that reason, but not because I demanded same.

I'm hoping this clarifies my point.



[edit on 8-23-2007 by Valhall]

ok so heres a link to a better photo imo of the individual/s on the ferry in question:www.nationalterroralert.com...

it turns out that there was people on a ferry in WA earlier in the month who were also acting suspicious and took some "out of the ordinary photographs" as stated by the supplied link.

there is also a short story/description call it what you want in the link as well.

edit to add: so maybe they are interested in questioning these people because they may think that they are connected to the incident which happened earlier this month involving ferries.

[edit on 8/23/2007 by agent violet]

Originally posted by agent violet

edit to add: so maybe they are interested in questioning these people because they may think that they are connected to the incident which happened earlier this month involving ferries.

I think you nailed it

From your source:

Passengers and crew members on different runs on separate dates reported the men to authorities.

That alone should atleast warrent an inquiry from the FBI. The feds looking into the situation and questioning the two men is NOT an indicaton of a police state.

For Pete's sake!! What a load of malarkey!! If the FBI walks up to someone and starts to ask questions, all a person has to do is say " I DECLINE TO BE INTERVIEWED ". That it. No more nonsense. NO ONE has to answer ANY questions put to them by a cop, none. There is NO LAW that says that we must chit chat with cops.

If the Feds want to press charges against someone, they must investigate and make a case and then get the paperwork done and file charges. Simple. They do NOT have the right to use statements by anyone against them unless the person goes along with the charade.

So if they found these two INNOCENT men, having never been charged with a crime related to this, and decided to question them, and the guys said " Go to hell ", what then? Hmm? Throw them in Gitmo because they exercised their Constitutional rights? That is the way of the criminal Bush cabal for sure, but it is antithetical to every value we hold dear in this nation. There is NO EVIDENCE that suggests that those men violated any law, and if they seemed suspicious, then find them and when the guys ignore the questions and demand an attorney before questioning, a RIGHT we all enjoy ( until Bush finds a way to get rid of that too ), then what will you do then?

Release them as the law says? Hold them until they ' break ' and decide to talk even though that is illegal? What then? People never stop to realize that ' questioning ' can happen ONLY when the ' suspect ' decides to talk, and NO ONE is EVER advised to talk to the cops, ever. this is a rule of all attorneys. Ask any attorney if they would suggest that a client talk to cops or wait and let the attorney do the talking. In EVERY instance, the lawyer will say " Shut up and wait for me ". So finding these men may be a waste of time if they know their rights and decide to insist on them being applied to them.

If any cop approached me for ANY reason and started to ask questions, I would stop him and say " No comments without an attorney present", and tell them to go away. Very simple. It keeps the cops from assuming that we are all obliged to do what they want and harrassing us. Cops lie about what we say to fit their needs. Cops lie on the stand all the time, it is epidemic here, so they cannot be trusted to accurately depict what you said. They will twist and lie and put words in your mouth and delete what they want deleted and frame you. Look how many cases we have right now of police misconduct. Cops canot be trusted.

So what good will it do to find these guys? If they are aware and savvy, the FBI will be told to take a hike. If they are actually guilty of some devious purpose, they will SURELY never spill the beans to the Feds. If they are not guilty of anything, then it is in their best interests to NEVER EVER give a statement to any cops, as they will turn their words around as usual to make it appear that they are suspicious. We have seen examples of FBI treachery and lies too many times to trust them one bit.

Either build a case and file charges or leave people alone. No one has to answer any questions put forth by some flat foot cop and they are ALWAYS best advised to decline any interviews with anyone related to LEO. That is the safest way to insure your not being lied about and railroaded by the Feds. NO COMMENT is ALWAYS better than allowing some Fed to twist your words and trick you into being suspicious when you may very well be totally innocent.

No smart person is going to implicate themselves if they are guilty, and no cop can insist on talking to us; we have a right to tell them NO and we are well advised to ALWAYS have an attorney present before ANY questioning at all, always. Ask any lawyer. Trusting the FBI is the worst mistake many people have made, including the men in Massachusetts who sat in Fed prison for 30 years because the FBI LIED on the stand to protect some MOB pals they were working. Ask those guys what they think about the FBI, and remember that it is all political and devious and set up to get what they want no matter how many right are trampled upon.

NEVER EVER TALK TO A COP, LET YOUR ATTORNEY DO THE TALKING!!

These two have been taking pictures of how to get in restricted area of many vessels. They have also been watched taking measurements of storage areas. I wonder where these two have disappeared too. I hope they are caught before something bad happens.

Originally posted by Silk
You might never have seen it first hand but i have scars on my arms from a well meaning bunch of irish lads who thought it fun to kill on of my friends - and were spotted a couple of weeks earlier scoping the place out

He thought it not right to call in what he saw

I nearly lost my life

Nuf said ?

no, not "nuf said" i think you ned to clarify this post. are you sayng you were involved in an altercation that ended up with one of your friends dead and you scarred for life? your blaming irish lads? how do you know they were irish? i think you might be stereotypig the fellas.

eyewitness, wonderful post. i'm glad that someone finally sees that these people dont have to talk to the fbi or any other government agency.
while they may have been up to something, they still dont have to come forward and talk to anyone.

That don't matter, Once they find them they may find out they are here illegally or have links to terrorist. They don't have to talk to find that stuff out. If they are Americans then they have rights in this country, If they are not then they will have to talk or sit in prison.

reply to post by agent violet


Why don't you go work for C.A.I.R ? Seeing how you think. Your Awful quick to support a possible terrorist.

Skywatcher is of course dead wrong: Being an American does NOT mean that you get rights and non citizens do not. ALL persons on our soil enjoy rights and the Feds CANNOT make soneone sit in jail until they talk ( legally and morally at least ) just because they do not have a green card!! Where did you hear that? Also, the fact the some of us cherish the rule of law does not mean we are supporting anyone.

You say that these guys are ' possible terrorists ', well, who isn't? Hmm? Everyone on earth is a POSSIBLE terrorist,,the real question is, who is a LIKELY terrorist? THAT is the issue. Not who mIGHT be. It takes more than suspicion to deny rights my friend, at least in this nation.

While it is a fact that the criminal BUSH cabal has destroyed many of our basic liberties under the phony guise of ' terrorism ', we still have some few rights left..and they say that we are INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty of any crime.No crime, no guilt. You sound like people that approve of throwing people into black holes without lawyers all based upon some vaugue suspicion. Shame on you if that is true, that is unAmerican and evil. must be Bush supporters.

As I've basically been saying since page 1, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Another thing is who's to say that they are 'middle eastern looking'? The FBI is proven to be bias, with that expression alone. For all they know they are Americans/Italians/Latinos/etc, not to mention, their basically implying that all middle eastern people look the same. Thats like saying all african people look the same, all asian people look the same, all european people look the same. I mean c'mon the FBI is clearly crossing the line, and presenting themselves to not only be biased but discriminatory.

[edit on 9/4/2007 by agent violet]