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Paul and Christianity

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posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 01:01 AM
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Hi,

I have read in a few threads comments from posters concerning the role of Paul in the formation of the early Church.

I was hoping that someone could provide a primer for those that believe that Paul kidnapped Christianity, specifically early texts that support the idea that he was at odds with the other Apostles.

Thanks!

Eric




posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 03:32 AM
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Firstly, Paul of Tarsus did not kidnap Christianity. That is a conclusion based on ignorance and/or prejudice, depending upon the individual.


Quite the contrary. If it weren't for Paul, Christianity would never have gone beyond being a local benign cult. It was because of his ministry, his missionary work, and his embracing of gentiles (non-Jews) which greatly helped the new faith to spread far and wide.

Secondly, Paul did not choose which of his letters and ideas would be in the New Testament. That was decided by church leaders who came after him. He had nothing to do with those decisions.

Church leaders and emperors are the ones who really dictated how Christianity unfolded into a state-dominated religion with priests, bishops, cardinals, and a pope, and the other branches of Christianity - like Greek Orthodox and all the Protestant faiths - which came after.

Paul had nothing to do with any of that either.


So if you want to blame someone for how Christianity turned out, blame the early church leaders and emperors who chose which passages would be accepted into the official religious text and who manipulated the masses and the Bible to suit their twisted desires for more power and money.

For example, most early Christians embraced the doctrine of reincarnation. A little tidbit that is not taught in any Christian Sunday school.


Reincarnation Was A Strong Belief Among Early Christians

But the early church felt the need to strengthen their grip on the masses (and get richer) and a belief in rebirth lessened that ability to control the congregation.

This led to Emperor Justinian in the Sixth Century ordering all references to the doctrine of rebirth to be omitted from the Bible. Anyone caught with the omitted texts or teaching them would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of Justinian's law. So the reincarnationists had to go underground and this is why the doctrine of rebirth is not a tenet of Christianity today - because of the edicts of a long dead Roman Emperor that very few are even educated about in seminary, much less question.

Paul had nothing to do with this issue either.


People who are ignorant of early Christianity and how politics and corruption after Paul's execution by the Romans played a key role, like to use the scapegoat that Paul of Tarsus somehow ruined Christianity. Yet at the same time, most Christian churches use Paul's letters as examples to further their theological base. So most Christian churches and many people have this love-hate relationship going on with Paul and his interpretations of spirituality and Christianity.

What they should all do is form a new ecumenical council and collectively rip out all of Paul's Epistles from the Bible


Then everyone can practice Christianity without Paul's influence and the problem of hating Paul as THE DESTROYER OF THE FAITH will be amended.


However, there is a little problem with that.

Seems that what is referred to as the Love Chapter aka 1st Corinthians 13 is widely used in weddings around the world and is considered to be one of if not THE most beautiful spiritual passage in the entire Bible


And it was penned by Paul.

oops


Oh...well...we will just ignore that from now on too.


People will just have to be inspired by some other Bible passage at weddings





posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 11:57 AM
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it does not matter what works of paul were put into the bible.what matters is that he preached radically different ideas compared to jesus.and for some reson the catholic church took paul's preaching as their foundation,and 80% of what jesus preached has never seen the light of day!!

i have often wondered why the founders of the catholic church made this decision.especially when you think of how imbittered paul was.and how his jealousy of mary magdalene led to a great hatred for all women! his teachings are much more violent than jesus'!!



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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All you have to do is read what Jesus says in the bible. Then read Pauls letters and teachings and his disciple timothy and you will see a vast difference, but the most common of these is the fact that Jesus says many times over that faith alone will not get you anywhere. You must uphold my fathers commandments and my commandments and perform works in order to reach heaven. Where as Paul says that Jesus fullfilled the law. One the law cant ever be fullfilled. They are an ongoing set of rules for mankind to follow. The funny thing is most christians immediatly jump on Pauls bandwagon.......hmmmm... could it be that its alot easier then what Jesus taught?? Hey "Christians" I have an idea while your busy tearing apart the words and work of your saviour why dont you just reinstate the whole buy your way into heaven deal... its even easier then just believing.



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
it does not matter what works of paul were put into the bible.what matters is that he preached radically different ideas compared to jesus.and for some reson the catholic church took paul's preaching as their foundation,and 80% of what jesus preached has never seen the light of day!!

i have often wondered why the founders of the catholic church made this decision.especially when you think of how imbittered paul was.and how his jealousy of mary magdalene led to a great hatred for all women! his teachings are much more violent than jesus'!!


Can you please elaborate on the '80% of Jesus' teachings not seeing the light of day' and explain why you believe that Paul was jealous of Mary Magdalene and hated women?

Thank you,

Eric



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 02:00 PM
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For example, most early Christians embraced the doctrine of reincarnation. A little tidbit that is not taught in any Christian Sunday school.




This is a bit off topic, but I believe that the reason it's not taught in Sunday School is that it's not true. It is NOT an accepted fact that Origen believed in reincarnation. He did believe that the soul predates the body.

There are many texts that predate Justinian and 533 from Christian writers that denounce the belief in reincarnation. Including some from Origen.

The Biblical passages that your source quotes refers to original sin. Also, quoting Wikipedia as a source is a bit dubious.

Eric



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 07:19 PM
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will get you some quotes on paul's attitude to women.but for now a good example is how jesus preached that a house/church should not stand devided.but paul preached that women were inferior and should therefore not preach with men.they should also have their heads covered in church.

i should point out,paul was not the only one to have been jealous of mary.disciples and apostles,whether they knew jesus or lived many years after him,seem to have this attitude...here is a quote from the gospel according to mary magdalene....a responce after she had a vision of christ....
"But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, 'Say what you think concerning what she said. For I do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are of other ideas.'"

"Peter also opposed her in regard to these matters and asked them about the Savior. 'Did he then speak secretly with a woman, in preference to us, and not openly? Are we to turn back and all listen to her? Did he prefer her to us?'"


at the council of nicea the work of jesus and the books of the bible were chopped and changed.this would be the first of many meetings when such things would happen.look up the nag hammadi scrolls.these works include the gospels of philip and thomas.(amongst many others.) definatly worth reading!



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 07:40 PM
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much like paul richard said...if paul (like all apostles)had'nt spread christianity when he did, we would not know it since I doubt a newly formed religion would have survived the total destruction raught by the roman empire after judea rebelled. the jewish faith barely made it out alive, let alone the jewish christians that were beleivers of christ. It was the eastern part of the roman empire wich received letters and scholarly works that seeded the faith, being that the ties they had with the early christian "roots" in judea were severed for ever. Those that were jewish christians died or their decendants returned to traditional faith, which was a crime in and of itself anyways after the destruction of the temple by the romans. yeah, if it wasnt for appostles like paul and the eastern roman empire, we would not know of jesus.

[edit on 16-8-2007 by newyorkee]



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 07:46 PM
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actually,if it wasn't for rome,ppl would not know about christianity.think about it.rome ruled britain,europe,parts of africa and parts of the middle east.when they made christianity the state relgion,millions of ppl went willingly to this new faith or they were forced to convert.if that hadn't have happened then the world would be a very different place!!

[edit on 16-8-2007 by jakyll]



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by jakyll
it does not matter what works of paul were put into the bible.what matters is that he preached radically different ideas compared to jesus.and for some reson the catholic church took paul's preaching as their foundation,and 80% of what jesus preached has never seen the light of day!!

i have often wondered why the founders of the catholic church made this decision.especially when you think of how imbittered paul was.and how his jealousy of mary magdalene led to a great hatred for all women! his teachings are much more violent than jesus'!!



How bout some facts to validate your claims? Your lack of knowledge on Scripture is evident by your omission of any foundational Scriptures to support your thoughts for your arguments to stand on. In other words, your statement is baseless.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 08:01 AM
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Paulianity is my Jewish friends name for the church that worships Jesus while ignoring his words. Why can't the so called Christians aspire to live as he did? They are like the disciples, always misunderstanding.
Love all, serve all, be good.
That was it, in a sentence, Jesus basic lesson, which none but a few ever hear.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by plague

All you have to do is read what Jesus says in the bible. Then read Pauls letters and teachings and his disciple timothy and you will see a vast difference, but the most common of these is the fact that Jesus says many times over that faith alone will not get you anywhere. You must uphold my fathers commandments and my commandments and perform works in order to reach heaven.

Once again a non-believer trying to understand and grasp what God has said. You can’t do it, you’re out of the loop and you will never understand His word until you come to faith.

Read chap 6 of John, you most likely won’t understand it but concentrate on what Jesus says about faith.

If you feel you’ve found a contradiction how about pointing it out so someone can comment. Just posting a general accusation doesn’t help a discussion progress. If all you can do is point without having some substance of examples is pointless. That’s grade school communication.

x0846



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 08:21 AM
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I have to agree with Paul Richard once again.

The problem with modern day Christians is that they are somewhat unknowledgeable as to what the early Christians believed. Most modern day Christians do not realize how much Christianity has been changed,altered and corrupted over the last 1700 years. They would rather place the "heretic"
label on Paul, rather than actually studying and examining the truth.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:21 AM
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i agree with you.i may question the teachings of paul,but i do not see him as a heritic.as i said,i've just wondered why his teachings were given precidence of jesus' by the catholic church!



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:25 AM
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jakyll, I really couldn't tell you. Paul's book has always been referred to as "the book of love," so maybe that had something to do with it.`

[edit on 17-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:38 AM
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How much has changed in 1700 years? Just look what 200 years has done. The Charismatic Movement for example. People rolling around on floors giggling, having uncontrollable movements, babbling, and other things would of had the Apostles thinking people at Charismatic Revivals were of need in Mass Exorcisms.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by EricD
 


You'll find plenty of answers to your questions in the 'Gnostic Gospels' - which were the original teachings of Christ: but they were violently censored/persecuted by the Catholic church in it's early days to the the point that they dissapeared from public sight until accidently re-discovered in Egypt in the 1940's. Also look at the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' - which are another very good source of info re: Paul's/Saul's extreme hatred of the early Christian church, through the eyes of the members of the early Christian church itself.

J.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by x0846
 


'If you feel you’ve found a contradiction how about pointing it out so someone can comment. Just posting a general accusation doesn’t help a discussion progress. If all you can do is point without having some substance of examples is pointless. That’s grade school communication'

The problem for you of course, is you're relying on Paul's version of events - The New Testament - which is not in any way shape or form, the original teachings of JC


Relying on the Bible for your info is like looking at the Grand Canyon thru a keyhole - you can't see the big picture - you will only see what the church WANT'S you to see...

J.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by x0846
Originally posted by jakyll
[

i have often wondered why the founders of the catholic church made this decision.especially when you think of how imbittered paul was.and how his jealousy of mary magdalene led to a great hatred for all women! his teachings are much more violent than jesus'!!



How bout some facts to validate your claims? Your lack of knowledge on Scripture is evident by your omission of any foundational Scriptures to support your thoughts for your arguments to stand on. In other words, your statement is baseless.


Actually, he is quite right. All his statements can be historically verified...unlike most of the New Testament..

J.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by x0846
Originally posted by plague

Once again a non-believer trying to understand and grasp what God has said. You can’t do it, you’re out of the loop and you will never understand His word until you come to faith.

Read chap 6 of John, you most likely won’t understand it but concentrate on what Jesus says about faith.



If you feel you’ve found a contradiction how about pointing it out so someone can comment. Just posting a general accusation doesn’t help a discussion progress. If all you can do is point without having some substance of examples is pointless. That’s grade school communication.

x0846


Believing that only YOU understand what 'God' is saying in the Bible is a sure sign of arrogance. You only seem to have any understanding of a heavily edited, re-written, censored book - so what gives you the right to judge 'God's' word exactly? That's too funny for words. Try reading the Gnostic Gospels to begin with - when you have a grasp on those - come back and tell us all about it, because only then will you have a measured, open opinion (hopefully).

J.



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