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Originally posted by Tuning Spork
Intriquing post, Quazga.
While the various religions of the world, exinct or extant, have very different dogmas and lore, they all do seem to want to address the truths of existence. A lot of wisdom is available in the teachings of Moses, Confucius, Mohammad, Jesus, Vishnu, etc.
Perhaps where athiests are drawn away from religion is the need for them (the religions) to address personal survival after death, whether through the promise of an afterlife in the West -- be it Heaven or Valhalla -- or reincarnation in the East.
I understand why athiests and agnostics reject any specific religion just as I, as an agnostic, have. But I also understand why a follower of a certain religion, or sect or denomination of one, does. The basic truths of human nature and our relationship to nature and to each other, of the teachings, which seem to be consistent throughout human religion, keep them anchored in a seemingly chaotic world.
Science and logic and "true" knowledge, by the way, serve the same purpose for those of us who are not religiously inclined, I think.
As far as casting off religion as an antiquated, vestigal artifact of pre-enlighted culture; that'll a hard sell, lemme tell ya.
[edit on 12-8-2007 by Tuning Spork]
Originally posted by Vipassana
You seem to present Atheism as a rejection of religion more than a rejection of God. Can a God not exist outside the logic of religion?
"In other words, the subjective experience of self is, nothing more than a composite convergent flux of stimulus and responses that could all possibly be explained by any number of deterministic theories."
I suppose this thinking stems from a lack of belief in afterlife? Indeed there is nothing in the human experience that would really indicate the existence of an after life.
How then do you explain the extreme complexities of the universe and the mind, as exampled by your complex thinking?
Originally posted by Vipassana
I would definitely agree that atheism is a product of religion. In fact I also agree to some extent with your sphere ideas and consciousness. Perhaps the only difference is that I call all of it God and maybe you only call it the Universe. In a sense my belief is that all things in existence is God, therefore humans are too.
Originally posted by ModernDystopia
Atheism is more so a product of logic and science; albeit, religion does have a role in creating atheists.
But to answer your question, why religions exist.
First off, one must understand that the religions practiced today are almost virtually entirely different than the religions practiced many centuries ago. That is to say, the same religion one practices today was practiced very differently long ago.
As to why they started and why they are practiced is entirely psychological, despite it being an entirely philosophical question. As Freud put it, religion is the by-product of mass neurosis and psychological distress. Religion helps those with clouded minds make sense of otherwise seemingly incomprehensible events - for instance the creation of the universe, or life in general.
Other great minds, like Stewart Guthrie, have deducted that religion is a byproduct of systematic anthropomorphism, meaning that we have given human characteristics to non-human things and events that we don't understand - for instance ancient civilizations having gods for wind, fire, earth, et al.
I think the real question here is "why does religion have value?"
[edit on 12-8-2007 by ModernDystopia]
Originally posted by ModernDystopia
Yes, my mistake. I did mean deduced. I'm running on very few hours of sleep, bear with me.
And yes, I agree with you, religion is also indeed, perhaps at the highest level, a byproduct of man's basic survival instinct. I still think that the more important
question is what value religion has, and I don't think that the fact that religion has been around for so long is not a reason it has value, at least not today. I find myself believing in Dawkin's theory that religion is a byproduct of psychological propensity that was at one point in time, long ago, useful. Essentially, an evolutionary accident.
Originally posted by seeingevil
Well written original post Quazga, though perhaps not as lucid as I'd have liked. I had to refer to Dictionary.com and Wikipedia just to confirm I was following you correctly.
I don't imagine I'd like debating with you very much, I'd spend less time writing a rebuttal than I would attempting to follow your confusing writing style and simply trying to ascertain what point exactly you're trying to make...
I'm all for writing in a style that's representative of a functioning brain, but is writing brilliantly at the cost of lucidity really impressive? I don't think it is. Tone it down a bit Einstein so the average among us can follow you .
Originally posted by Quazga
Sorry about that. I do tend to write things a bit hastily. Most of these thoughts and opinions of mine come from about 10 years of stewing on the subject, so please forgive me.