WTC 7 revisited...

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
This is utter ignorance!...
...You claim that any building can't collapse into its own footprint...

One simple word smart-ass RESISTANCE...As well as another half dozen laws of physics.

Anok, you cliamed you said there was steel left on the windsor building. I was only asking that you point it any above the 17th floor.

I don't understand what the point of your argument is here. Because the building partially collapsed above the 17th floor, it proves WTC 7 could globally collapse in it's own footprint. What twisted logic.

I will not post anymore photos of the gash....

So you admit you have NO idea how much damage the building sustained, yet you want us to believe it's this unknown damage that caused WTC 7 to globally fail and fall into it's own footprint? How are coming to your conclusions? Again twisted logic.

Don't spin my words or accuse my of being biased...

What witnesses have I dismissed? If I have.. please point them out so that I may explain why.

I didn't spin your words, you dismissed them as 'foreigners', your words. That my friend however you look at it is bias.

They are experts, and just like the rest of us can tell just by looking at how the building fell that it had to be a controlled demolition. You obviously are either lying through your teeth, or you are really ignorant when it comes to physics. I don't need witnesses to tell me what I can see with my own eyes.

What research have you done? All you bring here is the same old tired crap fed to you by your lying government.

Chill pill folks. Remember this forum is under tight scrutiny.

Captain Obvious,

Do not observe the penthouse, do however look at the right most corner of the roof rim (and the rest of the whole visible roof line).
Note the time when that corner point started to fall.
The distance that corner fell after 6 seconds will tell you the acceleration.

That kind of acceleration can only occur,
1. when a considerable length of ALL core columns has instantly disappeared, or,
2. when all those columns are severed and displaced, all at the same time, so they all start to slip away and fall alongside the still standing bottom parts of the same core columns.

For option 1. to happen, one must imagine a method of vapourizing or displacing a few meters of all thick steel core columns, without that event being visible from the outside, where reporters and lots of citizens were filming the event.
That could be done f.ex. by means of METC barometric cutter charges, placed f.ex. in the center of the two OEM floors. The ones extra reinforced to be the main emergency center for the city of New York in case of an emergency.
And evacuated as one of the first after the plane impacts on WTC 1 and 2.
The latest info on METC explosives indicate the possibility of the use of shape charged barometric explosions, capable of slicing through very thick steel as if it was butter. This kind of explosives can loose their max power quite fast with increasing distance, based on a specific design, thus much faster than standard high explosives. The effect would not reach the windows and be able to shatter them. The slicing effect would have been aimed inward, to the center of the building.

For option 2. to happen, one must imagine the simplest method of cutting and displacing the core columns, so they would start slipping off their bottom parts, mainly caused by the weight of the whole upper part of the building starting to fall down now.
That could be done by means of diagonal thermate cutter charges, which did exist.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how all four corners of the building failed in concert with columns 79 & 80, the cantilever design, diesel fires, collateral damage from WTC 1, or whatever you want to say toppled the structure.

How did it all fall at once from asymetrical damage? This is what gets stuck in my craw, and if this was planned, then the rest of the days events could not have happened as we are being told.

WTC 7 collapse, if proven to be planned, was the last event to transpire that awful day. Therefore other things would have had to be planned. Unfortunately we will probably never know.

2PacSade-

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
The timing appears to be off on the amount of time it took to fall. We are all shown the same 10 second video over and over.... this video shows all 4 corners did not fail at the same time. Watch the video and it will point out how the collapse started WELL before most CT sites show.

infinityoreilly and others think a comparison to the Murrah Building is a good comparison.
What was the Murrah building constructed with?
What was WTC-7 maily constructed with?
What was NEW-WTC-7 RE built with?

If you know the answers to these questions, you will clearly see that there is NO comparison between the buildings, their construction, or they way they were destroyed.
I won't get into the other false claims that are made about WTC7 because this is a thread that is dealing with "dust". Wit hrespect to Anok, I will not derail this. I just want those that are interested in the TRUTH.... the videos I posted clearly show:

1- Intense fires
2- Intense smoke
3- A much longer than free fall collapse
4- Some of the severe damage that WTC7 received from the collapse of the North Tower.

I have issues with your timeline for the collapse. After the left side of the penthouse goes down I started counting and I get to 9 or 10 seconds by the time WTC7 dissapears from view.

This seems incredible to me when your talking noncontroled collapse. There should be a irregular hurky jerky sideways 20 to 30 second collapse not what the video shows.

As far as the Murrah Building goes, it's the over all damage thats incredible. I realize the composition of the 2 buildings is different, and appreciate you pointing this out.

Decent post by the way

www.studyof911.com...

North side of WTC 7, where those intense flames were.

www.studyof911.com...
www.studyof911.com...

South face after both towers fall.

Then they say they fell cause of Fire.... ahhh ya.... OK THEN!!!!

Also still haven't referenced the 2 things I did mention here.. actually 1 thing 2 times...

Look up some posts of mine at this forum about the fire boats that were speeding in to help with a LOT of pumping power and hose lines.
Strangely, these lines were aimed at lost buildings, WTC 5 and 6, heavily damaged already and with raging fires pouring out all sides, with definitely no inhabitants at all, they were evacuated before both WTC 1 and 2 collapses

The collapse zone around WTC 7 meant NOBODY was allowed in the area,
if you read accounts from the firemen, debris was falling off the building
even before the collapse zone was set. Also WTC 7 is a 47 story building
so a defensive operation (fighting fire from outside) is not fesible -
hose streams don't reach much above 9th floor. With all the structural
damage nobody was going to enter the building to fight the fires - they
were too well involved and on multiple floors. The standpipe systems for
delivering water in the building were shot. Also FF were concerned with
fighting fires in buildings around WTC - there were dozen buildings on fire
I was listening to neighboring city fighting fires in World Finance Center -
most of the men are personal friends. Until WTC 7 collapsed nothing was
going to be done, but stay clear then extinguish the burning rubble.

Originally posted by infinityoreilly
I have issues with your timeline for the collapse. After the left side of the penthouse goes down I started counting and I get to 9 or 10 seconds by the time WTC7 dissapears from view.

Actually if you look at the timer in the lower left hand corner it shows you the time. As I posted previously on this thread: @ 5:08 the left side of the penthouse collapses. @ 11:28 the rest of the penthouse starts to collapse so...that is 6.20 seconds until the remainder of the collapse commences. At approx 18:00 of the counter, you lose visual of the building. 18:00 - 11:28 = 7.72 seconds. This comes out to about 13.92 seconds of the total collapse sequence.
( irealize this isn't the same way I posted the time in my previous post)

Originally posted by infinityoreilly
This seems incredible to me when your talking noncontroled collapse. There should be a irregular hurky jerky sideways 20 to 30 second collapse not what the video shows.

well i think we would assume that...but seeing we have never has a situation like we had on 911, there is nothing to compare it to.

Originally posted by infinityoreilly
Decent post by the way

Thanks

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
Then they say they fell cause of Fire.... ahhh ya.... OK THEN!!!!

Who is "they?" Can you give me a source for "them." I would hope that "they" realized 40 stories of a falling skyscraper was raining debris on top of it.

Originally posted by ANOK
One simple word smart-ass RESISTANCE...As well as another half dozen laws of physics.

Whats funny is I complimented you a few posts ago about a mature debate and a good thread.....yet you resort to typical playground antics. Please show me the 6 + laws of physics you are refering to. ( I will check off "resistance" as #1)

Funny how you didnt get warned for that..I got points taken away for using too many quotes! Sucks to be a skeptic in here I guess

Originally posted by ANOK
I don't understand what the point of your argument is here. Because the building partially collapsed above the 17th floor, it proves WTC 7 could globally collapse in it's own footprint. What twisted logic.

Here is the point : (and you are twisting the logic here)

Originally posted by ANOK
And how can you say only the concrete remained standing? I can see lots of steel still intact after being engulfed for 24 hours or so.

This is why I asked about the steel that was left over above the 17th floor. You stated that you can see lots of steel. I simply asked you to point out to me remainding steel above the 17th floor. Thats all

Originally posted by ANOK
So you admit you have NO idea how much damage the building sustained, yet you want us to believe it's this unknown damage that caused WTC 7 to globally fail and fall into it's own footprint? How are coming to your conclusions? Again twisted logic.

This is another classic post.... The damage that was sustained was as documented by firefighters and other members of the EMS that was on scene! There is also photographic evidence of sever damage. Do I know ALL of the damage? You KNOW the answer to that. The amount of damage is not unknown... personally i don't know ALL of it and I would lie if I said i did.

So lets look at twisted logic here.... you have stated at least 10 times on this thread about physics and controlled demolition yet you have not shown any evidence of what you post!
Where is your evidence? What laws of physics are you referring to? Where are your witnesses? Where are your statements by people that were on the scene that actually SAW the building and heard the building.

Originally posted by ANOKI didn't spin your words, you dismissed them as 'foreigners', your words. That my friend however you look at it is bias.

They are experts, and just like the rest of us can tell just by looking at how the building fell that it had to be a controlled demolition. You obviously are either lying through your teeth, or you are really ignorant when it comes to physics. I don't need witnesses to tell me what I can see with my own eyes.

This is typical nonsence...you can tell with your own eyes??? WOW! Oh... we are up to 11 in the Physics word again!!

They are experts in watching a video of a collapse? Were they aware there was a fire buring for 6 + hours? With MINIMAL fire fighting going on? Were they aware that the building had sustained severe damage by 40 floors of a skyscraper collapsing next to it, showering tons of debris ontop of it? I did hear your first expert was only shown the collaspe and was NOT told of the condition of the building. I will have to back that up though.

Originally posted by ANOKWhat research have you done? All you bring here is the same old tired crap fed to you by your lying government.

Fed to me ? Have I posted anything from the government on this thread? I posted Videos with timelines of the collaspes and staements from firefighters and seismic data.
Good try trying to make me look like a sheeple

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Actually if you look at the timer in the lower left hand corner it shows you the time. As I posted previously on this thread: @ 5:08 the left side of the penthouse collapses. @ 11:28 the rest of the penthouse starts to collapse so...that is 6.20 seconds until the remainder of the collapse commences. At approx 18:00 of the counter, you lose visual of the building. 18:00 - 11:28 = 7.72 seconds. This comes out to about 13.92 seconds of the total collapse sequence.
( irealize this isn't the same way I posted the time in my previous post)

Timers can be manipulated, and have been from time to time by both sides of the fence.

I'm not claiming this one is, I'm saying I don't trust such things as the gospel.

Thedman :

""The collapse zone around WTC 7 meant NOBODY was allowed in the area, if you read accounts from the firemen, debris was falling off the building even before the collapse zone was set. ""

Did you read all the parts of the NIST reports which are dedicated to all the emergency services operating at 9/11 ?
Because that collapse zone was ordered after 14:00.

EDIT : the first to order firefighters out of the vicinity of WTC 7 was Assistant Chief Frank Fellini at 11:30 a.m. But a Collapse Zone was ordered far later.
Many firefighters were hesitant to leave the WTC grounds, because many of them lost their Brothers, literally in some cases, and were searching for them and their trucks, all around. END EDIT

During the first hour after the last collapse (WTC 1, 10:28:31), there are many transcripts of firemen and other persons trying to help and investigate WTC 7, in those reports, and they do not report raging fires.
They report smoke in staircases, and a few smaller fires on higher floors.

There is even an early transcript after WTC 1 collapse, from a fireman walking at the 5th to 7th floor at the WTC 7 south facade rooms and corridors, who does not report any big gash in the facade at that height, and no fires at all at those floors.
There is much more to read, about the 2 men found trapped in a staircase, where a piece of the staircase fell down because of an explosion, which seemingly took place before WTC 1 collapsed. There is a recent thread about that here in this forum.

""The standpipe systems for delivering water in the building were shot.""

Can you explain to me why and how the standpipe systems at the undamaged NORTH side of WTC 7 were shot?
And b.t.w., all standpipe systems at WTC 1,2 and 7 were impossible to pressurize by Pumper trucks on 9/11.
Ain't that a tad bit strange, to say the least?
And the 3 fireboats could have connected to the pumper trucks easily, and had provided a lot of Hudson river water to those trucks. The boats were very early at the scene.

You know of course the function of a Pumper truck in a high rise fire.
Just use the PDF-search function in the NIST reports with the words "Pumper truck", to find all the reports of non-functioning connections to the standpipe systems. They could not put pressure on those pipes.

NONE of them!

And you know that the two buildings were undamaged by the impacting planes, under the level of impact.
So what caused that failure to pressurize ALL the existing standpipes?
Use again the PDF-search function in the NIST reports to find all excerpts for "standpipes".

And for those who don't know how a high rise standpipe system functions, do read the explanation in the NIST reports.
You'll understand then that these pipes are segmented, with several positions at some higher floors, to connect hand carried pumps to the system, to overcome the loss of pressure which occurs in very high rise buildings.

[edit on 29/7/07 by LaBTop]

[edit on 29/7/07 by LaBTop]

www.cooperativeresearch.org...

The so called bomb before collapse is a myth culled from the previous
link. The officals mentioned, Barry Jennings, arrived in building before
WTC 2 collapse and made way to OEM Were trapped in building when
debris smashed stairway and lobby of WTC 7.

As for why didn't actively fight fires at WTC 7 - its called triage, or using
what resources you have. Running hose lines takes lot of manpower
The incident commander on scene had to make decision - committ
resources to building with heavy structural damage or allocate them
elseware. Have to remember that highest priority was rescuing survivors
from wreckage of Towers. There were survivors in stairway B of WTC1
that were attemping to rescue. The on scene commanders had to decide
what to do after having several hundred men killed, injured or simply
vanished, dozens of apparatus wrecked. Fires breaking out in buildings
all around. Do you you commit men/equipment to empty building with
heavy structural damage, limited water supply or try to fight fires in
surrounding buildings and search for survivors . It is not as you think
so simple - streets blocked by debris, limited water, long hose runs back
to river to fight such a fire. On normal day WTC 7 would have been a
major incident - in FDNY speak a "borough call" where all resources of
borough were committed. On Sept 11 became "collateral damage"

According to Captain Michael Currid, the sergeant at arms for the Uniformed Fire Officers Association, some time after the collapse of the North Tower, he sees four or five fire companies trying to extinguish fires in Building 7 of the WTC. Someone from the city̵7;s Office of Emergency Management tells him that WTC 7 is in serious danger of collapse. Currid says, “The consensus was that it was basically a lost cause and we should not lose anyone else trying to save it.” Along with some others, he goes inside WTC 7 and yells up the stairwells to the fire fighters, “Drop everything and get out!” [Murphy, 2002, pp. 175-176] However, other accounts contradict this, claiming that no attempt is made to fight the fires in WTC 7 (see (11:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001). One report later claims, “Given the limited water supply and the first strategic priority, which was to search for survivors in the rubble, FDNY did not fight the fires [in WTC 7].” [Fire Engineering, 9/2002] And a 2002 government report says, “the firefighters made the decision fairly early on not to attempt to fight the fires, due in part to the damage to WTC 7 from the collapsing towers.” [Federal Emergency Management Agency, 5/1/2002, pp. 5-21] Building 7 eventually collapses late in the afternoon of 9/11 (see (5:20 p.m.) September 11, 2001).

Here are some more quotes indicating status of WTC 7 that day

www.cooperativeresearch.org...

The chief fire officer who has been assigned to take charge of operations at WTC Building 7 meets with his command officer, to discuss the condition of this building and the fire department̵7;s capabilities for controlling the fires in it. A deputy fire chief who has just been in WTC 7, inspecting up to its 7th or 8th floor, reports that there was a lot of fire inside and the stairway was filling with smoke. The fire chiefs discuss the situation and identify the following conditions:
WTC 7 has suffered damage caused by falling debris from the Twin Towers, and they are uncertain about its structural stability.
There are large fires on at least six floors.
They do not have enough equipment available for conducting operations in the building, such as hoses, standpipe kits, and handie-talkies.
There is no water immediately available for fighting the fires. (However, this concern is apparently contradicted by reports that two or three fireboats are moored nearby, specifically to provide water-pumping capacity for the WTC site.)
Therefore, at around 2:30 p.m., fire officers decide to completely abandon WTC 7 and a final order is given to evacuate the site. Firefighters and other emergency workers will be withdrawn from the surrounding area (see (4:30 p.m.) September 11, 2001), and Building 7 collapses later in the afternoon (see (5:20 p.m.) September 11, 2001). [Firehouse (.com), 9/17/2001; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 110-111 ]
Entity Tags: New York City Fire Department, World Trade Center
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline

Cooperative research is a good site, but I advised to get your info from the NIST reports.

I'll repeat it again, the Conspiracy search function on this site, ATS, is turned into a crappy source.
It will not come up with the posts by me regarding the helicopter pilots warning the OEM office for imminent collapse of WTC 1. If I fill in LaBTop and some more key words, it turns up nothing.

Main reason to get not involved so much anymore, all that work gets snowed under by endless repeats and new posts covering old threads.
And it is near to impossible to quickly recover ones old posts on important subjects.
So also other members posts I do remember, and have key words from, but nothing turns up.

I'm pissed.
I do not repeat hours of work already posted years ago.

Originally posted by earth2
Ill tell you why im not interested, because you have one point of view instead of an open mind.
Im just as curious as you are on the 9/11 attacks however a lot of the things you argue lacks 100% proof. So maybe you are wrong on a few things but you will never figure it out because you are so set in your ways.

Actually I would love to debate 9/11 but its guys like you trying to ram your ideas into me that makes it difficult.



[edit on 25-7-2007 by earth2]

if anyone in the world had 100% proof we wouldnt be here right now, either side.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
Then they say they fell cause of Fire.... ahhh ya.... OK THEN!!!!

Who is "they?" Can you give me a source for "them." I would hope that "they" realized 40 stories of a falling skyscraper was raining debris on top of it.

along with several other buildings that DIDNT collapse. why didnt 'they' say those buildings would collapse?

Cooperative research is a good site, but I advised to get your info from the NIST reports.

Read some of the NIST reports. I live only few miles from Manhattan
and know many people who were on scene. Several friends worked
for Salomon Smith Barney in WTC 7 and heard from them what
went on that morning first hand. Attended seminar given by FDNY
and heard from the incident comanders their actions that day. Also
know many FF from neighboring city who fought the fires in World
Finance Center (west of WTC7) that day - was listening to radio
transmissions in my firehouse (chief placed us on standby in case needed)
so heard orders being sent to clear collapse zone around WTC 7. Have
much which is not public knowledge and get rather P'O by the tinfoilers
who throw around all sort of bizarre nut ball theories

Jprophet... look at :

1. the condition of the buildings
2. the fire in the buildings

^Jprophet,

Also look at the molten steel in the basements weeks later, and the total, instantaneous structural collapse.

Not a single column left standing, the building reduced to a 3-story pile, but molten steel for weeks. Hmmm.

Then try to find an official explanation for it, six years later. good luck in your search. Report back if you find an "explanation"--we're all still waiting.