Question about the Light Spectrum: recruiting help

I'll try to be short and consice. It's a simple question.

When all the visible light accumulates, we are told(at least I was heh), we percieve the color white. Is that correct?

So my question is, if we take into account all the frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum, or whatever makes up the variances in light and color, both visible and invisible, do we still hypothetically get the color white? Say we developed the eyes and brain required to percieve the entire spectrum of light frequencies... is the color a new color and so beyond comprehension? Or is the accumulation of all the light any one thing can percieve allways going to appear white?

If so then perhaps that brings a new meaning to why white light is so holy.

Sorry if that was unclear, redundant or circular

Originally posted by Cloak and Dagger
I'll try to be short and consice. It's a simple question.

When all the visible light accumulates, we are told(at least I was heh), we percieve the color white. Is that correct?

What we percieve as white is all the visible spectrum rays bouncing off of an object, black means all the rays are absorbed.

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole

What we percieve as white is all the visible spectrum rays bouncing off of an object, black means all the rays are absorbed.

Right I understand that. My question is not strictly concerning the visible spectrum.

My question was, if humans had the eyes for it, and could percieve the entire electromagnetic spectrum, would the accumulation of all that reflected light still be percieved as white?

Originally posted by Cloak and Dagger

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole

What we percieve as white is all the visible spectrum rays bouncing off of an object, black means all the rays are absorbed.

Right I understand that. My question is not strictly concerning the visible spectrum.

My question was, if humans had the eyes for it, and could percieve the entire electromagnetic spectrum, would the accumulation of all that reflected light still be percieved as white?

Ok I understand now. Thats a tough one! What makes it so tough is your asking us to imagine something that is not percievable by our brains. It's akin to asking us to describe dimensions other than the ones we live in. If our minds can't experience it, it's unimaginable in a sense.

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole

Ok I understand now. Thats a tough one!

What makes it so tough is your asking us to imagine something that is not percievable by our brains. It's akin to asking us to describe dimensions other than the ones we live in. If our minds can't experience it, it's unimaginable in a sense.

Yeah exactly. That's what im struggling with. On one hand i'm thinking like your saying that it could simply be beyond our comprehension since we havn't experienced it. On the second hand, what if we have seen it, what if the accumulation of light being white is a constant law of light? Regardless of how many frequencies of light are being accumulated.

Originally posted by Cloak and Dagger

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole

Ok I understand now. Thats a tough one!

What makes it so tough is your asking us to imagine something that is not percievable by our brains. It's akin to asking us to describe dimensions other than the ones we live in. If our minds can't experience it, it's unimaginable in a sense.

Yeah exactly. That's what im struggling with. On one hand i'm thinking like your saying that it could simply be beyond our comprehension since we havn't experienced it. On the second hand, what if we have seen it, what if the accumulation of light being white is a constant law of light? Regardless of how many frequencies of light are being accumulated.

Based on our current understanding of the visable spectrum, no one has seen it, unless they are looking through the eyes of a being that is not human. Thats why we call it the visible spectrum, because outside of that small sliver of the entire spectrum, we can not see these things with our human eyes.

Originally posted by Cloak and DaggerOn the second hand, what if we have seen it, what if the accumulation of light being white is a constant law of light? Regardless of how many frequencies of light are being accumulated.

If I understand what you're saying, no.

I could "accumulate all the light" in what we perceive as the red end of the spectrum, and it would look red.

What you see as white is a pretty complex thing, and it depends on one of two primary pathways. In dim light, you ONLY perceive light as shades of gray because you're getting inputs from your rod system. So that's one way of getting "white" inputs from your retinae.

Another is when you have a certain balance of more intense red, blue and green light that you're seeing, when your cones come into play. Within a range of balance, you will perceive the mix of the three colors as white. If it gets off to one side or the other, you'll start perceiving it as "warm" or "cold" white. And given time, your visual system will correct a steady "white" light input that's not quite perfect to look "whiter". Your eyes constantly try to "guess" what should be correct in terms of color balance and make subtle adjustments to your perceptions to compensate.

On top of that, a certain proportion of red, green, and blue light may look "white" at one intensity level but not at another.

Color perception is a pretty intricate thing, and it's easy to throw off: there are a ton of optical illusions that cause you to misperceive color balance and intensity.

So what appears white to you may be nothing more than a mix of three narrow colors, instead of the spectral barrage you'd get from a black-body emitter radiating "white". You can't tell the difference, and in the end, what you perceive as "white" light is an artifact of your brain and eye's design rather than some sort of holy thing.

Grab a hot cup of coffee - and your hand ( nerves in skin) would 'see'( the radiation as a product of the motion of atom sand molecule in object) infrared.

It is all about how deep you can see the objects - seeing in colors you see more detail than BW...seeing infra, gamma,ultra violet, X -ray- you 'see' more detail.


EM waves -is energy released by changes on the atomic and molecular level that occur without any outside intervention ...and only visible light is of color spectrum....others we cant see with our eyes.

"To someone who
could see the
entire spectrum,
our obsession
with a narrow
niche might
seem odd"


*Color you only see intensity...but sound is much richer :timber -duration-pitch-dynamics...

Originally posted by Cloak and Dagger
I'll try to be short and consice. It's a simple question.

When all the visible light accumulates, we are told(at least I was heh), we percieve the color white. Is that correct?

Correct.

So my question is, if we take into account all the frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum, or whatever makes up the variances in light and color, both visible and invisible, do we still hypothetically get the color white?

There's no way of telling. Remember, the "white" is just what our eyes and brain are programmed to interpret it as. Shift the spectrum one way or another, and something else can appear as the collection of colors. Add in radio frequencies and so forth, and there's simply no way of knowing.

If so then perhaps that brings a new meaning to why white light is so holy.

White is only holy in the western Christian traditions. In some traditions it's the color of death or the color of the north point or other things.

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole

unless they are looking through the eyes of a being that is not human. Thats why we call it the visible spectrum, because outside of that small sliver of the entire spectrum, we can not see these things with our human eyes.

There are animals that have a different visual perception of light correct? Animals that for instance can see further into the ultra-violet spectrum. So theoretically is there something that can be artificially created in a lab to simulate a non-human eye? And then... is there some way to make that invisible light visible via that artifical eye?. Or am I trying to force a subjective experience into objectivity?

hough there are places on the planet you can visually watch EMW's ,Aroraborealus,Ect. There is very little simple explanation's of it's mechanic's. We would be able to see such effects with our naked eye if we were off the planet, but for now, they have sensitive and very well calibrated devices to measure those absolutes that we unfortunately can't see via "Our current sight capabilities." Which is probably a very beautiful sight, just not sure how "Optically Healthy" it would be for us as we must be able to decipher our distances and color's , ect. with current sight we have now.
Interesting question to thought about , I did a little searching to see if there were any "Optical" devices as of our current tech. and unfortunately, there is only explanation of how it all comes together as EMR/EMF.
Here's the scientific explanation with a spectral graff of all emitting circumstances for explanation. Hope it helps..

www.lbl.gov...

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

If I understand what you're saying, no.

I could "accumulate all the light" in what we perceive as the red end of the spectrum, and it would look red.

Hmm I guess I don't understand enough about how light is percieved. Although you, and everyone else, has been very helpful! Thanks =]

Is there an instance where ALL frequencies of light is being reflected to the human eye? So that, with the developed capacity, one would see the accumulation of the infared and ultraviolet, the inbetween, and beyond those frequencies together?

In dim light, you ONLY perceive light as shades of gray because you're getting inputs from your rod system. So that's one way of getting "white" inputs from your retinae.

Hmm, so then can I infer that the brighter the room, the whiter white will appear?

So what appears white to you may be nothing more than a mix of three narrow colors, instead of the spectral barrage you'd get from a black-body emitter radiating "white". You can't tell the difference, and in the end, what you perceive as "white".

Well it's the subjective perception that I am concerned with, so it's okay if the perception of white is an illusion or an inability of the eye/brain. So wether it's 3 colors or thousands of colors, is the accumulation of all that light still percieved as "white" to the brain?

Lets say every week the human eye developed more and the range of the visible spectrum of percieved light is increased slightly. Last week the accumulation of all that visible light appeared to be "white", so is the following week, including this slight increase in visible light, still going to be percieved as white?

light is an artifact of your brain and eye's design rather than some sort of holy thing.

Light also exists outside the brain, so it's not just an artifact of the brain and eyes. Color perhaps.

Personally, when I think about the Holy, I don't seperate spirit from flesh, magic from science.

Is there an instance where ALL frequencies of light is being reflected to the human eye?

Yes. Every time you open your eyelids.

Hmm, so then can I infer that the brighter the room, the whiter white will appear?

Not necessarily. I can add something to make a white flouresce and it will look even brighter than ordinary white.

So wether it's 3 colors or thousands of colors, is the accumulation of all that light still percieved as "white" to the brain?

Yes... but only of the visible light spectrum. We don't know what it would look like if you could see UV/Infrared/radio waves.

Personally, when I think about the Holy, I don't seperate spirit from flesh, magic from science.

Remember that you are thinking only from a Western perception. In other cultures, other colors are associated with holiness.

Originally posted by Byrd

Remember that you are thinking only from a Western perception. In other cultures, other colors are associated with holiness.

What other cultures associate alternate colors with holiness? Are there many others?

I can think right off the bat of Tibetan monks and the red color of their robes, but that does not exclude white as a holy color for them....only that they choose red as a primary holy color.

Here is a link that may help to further describe the role of color in healing and spirituality:

Herbalchemy

In other words, trying to quantify what can not be quantified (religion) is pointless.

[edit on 18-6-2007 by newtron25]

Hey Y'all,

Cloak and Dagger your question is a good, mind stretching one. I do not have an answer to your question, but it does bring to my mind a similar subject about which I've often thought.

As a musician and audiophile I am aware of how very pleasing we human beings (at least those of us who aren't tone deaf) find certain certain combinations of frequencies of sounds to be. Examples of this are second order harmonics, octaves, where one frquency is twice or one-half that of another frequency played at the same time. Other examples are the various chords and arpeggios.

I have often wondered if this would not also be the case with light if if the frequency range of human sight were great enough for us to see octaves and chords of colors. If such were the case composers could compose songs and even symphonys of colored light.

Perhaps someday this will be acieved with somed technological crutch which allows direct input of the data into our brains. I hope to live past that day.

Sailghoti

Originally posted by Cloak and Dagger
Is there an instance where ALL frequencies of light is being reflected to the human eye? So that, with the developed capacity, one would see the accumulation of the infared and ultraviolet, the inbetween, and beyond those frequencies together?

A black body radiator at a sufficient temperature would produce a color that you would perceive as "white" around 6500 K which would have all the inbetween colors as well. You can't develop a capacity to see infrared or ultraviolet with your eye directly, because all you really see with your color vision is red, blue and green.

Hmm, so then can I infer that the brighter the room, the whiter white will appear?

No. In dim light you use rods. That's what you use to see the color of moonlight on a field or reflecting on water. The moon itself is bright enough to see with cones. In dim light, you can't see colors at all. Just shades of gray. As the light level comes up, you will smoothly switch to cones and then the rods will basically stop functioning as the pigment they use to sense with is bleached out. Your retinae sense the overload and just turn off the rod system.

Well it's the subjective perception that I am concerned with, so it's okay if the perception of white is an illusion or an inability of the eye/brain. So wether it's 3 colors or thousands of colors, is the accumulation of all that light still percieved as "white" to the brain?

Yes, but you will perceive a mix of red,blue and green as being the same whiteness as a broad spectrum of light. You can't distinguish between them. You therefore don't need an "accumulation of light", if I'm understanding you, which I may not be. Just three colors is all the accumulation you need. An alien might use three different colors, or more, in which case your white wouldn't look white to it.

Lets say every week the human eye developed more and the range of the visible spectrum of percieved light is increased slightly. Last week the accumulation of all that visible light appeared to be "white", so is the following week, including this slight increase in visible light, still going to be percieved as white?

The range of visible spectrum isn't going to change things. Let's say you have your lens removed and an implant put in without a UV absorber. IIRC that used to happen early in cataract surgery. You could then see more into the UV than you do. But, it just looks bluer and darker, because the only cone you have for that end is the blue cone. You only have the four sensors, red, green, blue, and dim. Supposedly there are people with four colors of cones which gives them a bit better gamut, but it still won't let you see off into the UV or IR.

Light also exists outside the brain, so it's not just an artifact of the brain and eyes. Color perhaps.

Personally, when I think about the Holy, I don't seperate spirit from flesh, magic from science.

You clipped out a few words in your quote where I said "white" light is in your head. It is a perception, at least in the sense I take it that you are using it in your discussion, since you say you are interested in subjective perception and not objective measurement.

Subjective is another thing that applies to holiness, because a priest of Ba'al would have a very different view of that than a priest of Odin, a Monist or a Lesser Way Buddhist.

Originally posted by newtron25
I can think right off the bat of Tibetan monks and the red color of their robes, but that does not exclude white as a holy color for them....only that they choose red as a primary holy color.

White is the color of death in many Eastern cultures.

In Judaism, the color of holiness is blue:
en.wikipedia.org...

In Islam, green is the favorite color of Mohammad and green symbolizes holiness:
webexhibits.org...

And gold, of course (the color of the sun) was another holy color.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by newtron25
I can think right off the bat of Tibetan monks and the red color of their robes, but that does not exclude white as a holy color for them....only that they choose red as a primary holy color.

White is the color of death in many Eastern cultures.

In Judaism, the color of holiness is blue:
en.wikipedia.org...

In Islam, green is the favorite color of Mohammad and green symbolizes holiness:
webexhibits.org...

And gold, of course (the color of the sun) was another holy color.

Back up there, champ.

Let's quote your linkage......

From the Islamic weblink:

"Even today only his direct successors - the Kaliphs - are allowed to wear a green turban." Does this sound holy? Sounds more like exclusive club, but you were right in finding colors to point out and the link describes green as an ancient reference for Arabic tribes...perhaps as the desert grew larger, less and less green to see?

But the Jewish faith ALSO includes white and purple:

Yehuda, Israel, By It's Colors

"Purple is known as a "holy" color. Some Israelis adopted purple as a sign of unity between those who wanted disengagement and those opposed."

And as far as blue for Judaism...you might have gotten it confused with the state of Israel:

"Blue
Beret colors for both military police and navy. A blue and white curb means paid parking for up to two hours."...not exactly holy.


Back to the color of white....

"Abu Muslim had originally used as his standard a black flag symbolizing the House of Ali. The Abbasids followed this precedent and used black for both their standard and dress. The Abu Muslim rebels, in protest, adopted the color white for their banners and clothing, which happened also to be the holy color of the Manichaeans and used for their robes. The Syriac epithet for Manichaeans was “Those with White Gowns.”

Manichaeism had many forms, blending with Zoroastrianism, Christianity, or Buddhism to resonate with people from different cultures. Its sophisticated ideas appealed to many intellectual officials in the Abbasid court, who developed an Islamic sect that combined Manichaeism with Shia Islam. The Abbasid authorities, as guardians of orthodoxy, eventually viewed the Manichaean Shiite sect as a threat. Branding it a heresy, they suspected its followers of anti-Abbasid sympathies akin to those of the Abu Muslim rebels in Sogdia and persecuted them. Although Manichaean Shia did not survive as a separate Islamic sect, many of its followers later absorbed themselves into the Ismaili sect of Shia. It, too, eventually became an object of severe persecution by the Abbasids.

During the reign of the next caliph, al-Mahdi (r. 775 - 785), most of Sogdia fell under the control of the white-robed rebels, led by al-Muqanna, the “Veiled Prophet,” an associate of Abu Muslim. The Oghuz Turks, who also wore white, gave military assistance to the rebels, although they never adopted Islam. By this time, the Sogdian rebels now followed a new Islamic sect, Musalemiyya, the customs of which did away with many orthodox traditions, such as praying five times a day. Thus, the Abbasid campaigns to quash the Sogdian rebels and their Oghuz Turk allies also became campaigns to preserve the purity of Islam.

In 780, the Abbasid forces put down a rebellion in Bukhara, but further uprisings continued. The Abbasids became preoccupied with suppressing these rebellions and with keeping the purity of Islam against the Musalemiyya and Manichaean Shia sects. Their urgency and harshness in dealing with heresies involving Manichaean elements was perhaps reinforced by former Zoroastrian priests who had converted to Islam and advised the government to follow the Sassanid example of authoritarianism in religious matters. "

Buddhist and Islamic Cultures before the Mongol Empire (BTW, this is also some interesting reading on Islam.)

Sorry if that's too much to read.