What could your government do with a dimensional portal?

Someone bumped an old thread that claims the US govt. has time/dimensional travel capabilities.

IF USA did, how could it benefit them? Would they be quagmired in Iraq if they actually possessed such fantasy tech? Suppose they got the system reliably operational this morning what could they do with a "stargate" to achieve their aims?

1. Lessen the cost of deploying in Iraq by "beaming up" equipment directly from bases and factories in the states, to bases in Iraq. But you couldn't beam up many soldiers, or your secret would be out.

2. Lower the price of oil by building a pipeline through a "wormhole in space" that starts in Iraq and leads to U.S. refineries. But note that all american refineries are already running at capacity, so this wouldn't change the price of gas for Americans.

3. A dimensional gate wouldn't help with winning against terrorists, since the problem is one of intel, not of war materiel; more guns won't help find Osama Bin Laden.

4. Going back to 9-10 and kidnapping the 9-11 attackers would make it impossible for the USA to invade Iraq in the first place. But it also mean that america's "guard" would still be down, making an eventual attack inevitable. . . .

From these ideas,

A: No one has a time/space portal, or they'd have already fixed all their problems.

or conversely,

B: The real hurdles governments face are found in the popular will. Warfare is ultimately a struggle between various humans, trying to assert their will. So technology doesn't win wars. Changing hearts does. And a "stargate" is useless in such an endeavor.

.

Well first off if such a stargate would exist, that would explain all the disinfo smears from the last half of the last sentury. Why else would they let all these absurd theories and television shows appear if not to divert people from the actual sate of affairs.

Also, if they did have it, who's to say they don't want people to know about it? In our hands it would be complete chaos and the uppers in government don't want chaos. They're hvaing issues keeping up with the issues they have with it anywhos.

And as far as that goes with Iraq, who's to say that heck, intel wouldn't come from the future to the past (that is if we can skip foreward causality headaches this late in the day)? In that case, we would not only know where Osama is hiding also quite a few more things that have already been resolved somewhere down the line.

However, as hard as it would be to tunnel particles, much less information at this point it's highly unlikely. The published science is hinting toward the direction we can go into, however right now we are no where out of the theoretical woods yet with any kind of stargate technology.

Especially with the Iraq issues that we're having right now. The tatical stragegies one could have with portals at this time would make this a shorter war than it is. I mean, not only weapony and things like that, advanced intel, we could have untraceable trackers. Things like that which would ahve made this ten times easier.

Alas...

but would time travel really help fight terrorism.

Take the latest big bombing in Iraq. . . .

What would you do, have a guy in the street 2 minutes before the blast? All you'd see is a guy walk past and put a package in a mailbox or something.

You'd then have to go back, before that to see where he came from. And repeat ad infinitum to connect him to a cell.



As for bin laden, what if we never find him? Then we cannot go back from the future and retrace his steps to whatever cave he's holed up in. To intercept him in the past, you have to know a specific time and place where he was. Yet he's been hiding for years. So at what point in the past can you go to intercept him?

Even if you went back and killed him at birth, his role in a resurgent middle east could be filled by Muqtadr or any others on a long list.



The real problem of terrorism isn't one of technology or even intel; it's a question of motivation.

What the CIA needs is a mind-control device, not a time control one.


.

This is true, I like your thinking. Making me think. :-D (I don't get that often)

As far as that goes, ever seen Minority report? Same kind of scenario. Could they actually stop someone before committing a crime? Because it wasn't committed where's the free will in that?

Besides if you get into time travel you end up in the parallel universe connundrum. So you go back for bin laden. You kill him off, but now you're stuck in an alternate universe with a different outcome than the one you would have been at, considering that the event of you killing him off never happend on your specific timeline. So great, you've solved... nothing.

As far as that goes, I guess in a way that does kind of nullify the point of them actually working on said technology outside of "hey, I wonder what THIS does" kind of thinking.

I actually do have to concur there wouldn't be a point if you get there before the motive. It would make no sense. So as warfare I don't see why it would. Mining for resources though after ours are long gone, now there's a use. *rolls eyes*

And as far as the mind control, they've already tried that, MK-Ultra. Failed at some attempts and have worked at other attempts. Russia's done their own work too on the same subject although don't quote me and I can't remember any of the actually documentation off the top of my head. (The whole cold war era meshes together as one in my head.)

As far as the middle-east goes, I'm becoming a proponnent of the "civilizations in collision" viewpoint.

The arab world had a baby boom a generation ago. Combine that with the end of the cold war, increasing affluence, and a rejection of westernization, and you end up with Jihad. Killing a hundred Bin Ladens won't change a thing.

Not to get too political, but I think the root causes of middle east conflict are economic and social. I believe the same was true of Nazi Germany--the western secret services spent the 1920's directing their efforts against the Strasser brothers in Germany; they were shocked when the Strasser Stahlhelm/Freikorps organizations were absorbed into the "upstart" Nazi apparatus -- a lot like the currrent struggle between hammas and Fatah in Palestine.

If you'd killed Hitler, you'd have had two Strassers, Ernst Roehm, and Goebbels to deal with--each of them had their own parties at one point, that were "absorbed" into Hitler's NSDAP. the real problem was the German feeling that they "deserved" an empire with colonies, and that the west had "stolen it" from them. Many Germans felt that even military losses were by nature only temporary; that their cause was inevitable.

I got to thinking about this when I read Achmadinejad's letter to the current German Chancellor; he talked about how the Persian people were an ancient and proud race with Allah on their side, that the only thing keeping them down was encirclement by the west, about the inevitablility of Iranian ( pronounced "Aryani" ) triumph.

So the problem isn't that Islam suddenly changed, or that Iran did. It's that millions of people suddenly feel that "this is their hour" on the world stage.

how can you change that mass feeling, that zeitgheist, even with a stargate?


.

[edit on 16-6-2007 by dr_strangecraft]

The artist "Immortal Technique" has a lyric in his song 'cause of death' that goes like this:

"I know the CIA saw Bin Laden on dialysis
In '98 when he was Top Ten for the FBI
Government ties is really why the Government lies"

I can't prove to you that the CIA ever saw Bin Laden during this time period, but he was an operative during the Afghan wars against the Soviets.

The CIA hired him as well as many Taliban militiamen to target Soviets in Afghanistan during the Cold War.

As for the time machine, I don't think they would be able to change a whole lot.

Karma has a funny way of coming back around and biting you in the butt anyway. The events may not have happened exactly the same, but probably pretty similarly.


Who knows, maybe we're in an alternate timeline right now...

I took the liberty of researching Bin Laden's ties to the CIA for you.

You decide for yourself.

I already have my own opinions.


Here are a few interesting quotes:

www.guardian.co.uk...

"Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro.

The disclosures are known to come from French intelligence which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.

Bin Laden is reported to have arrived in Dubai on July 4 from Quetta in Pakistan with his own personal doctor, nurse and four bodyguards, to be treated in the urology department. While there he was visited by several members of his family and Saudi personalities, and the CIA. "

www.informationclearinghouse.info...

At the CIA, it happens often enough to have a code name: Blowback. Simply defined, this is the term that describes an agent, an operative or an operation that has turned on its creators. Osama bin Laden, our new public enemy Number 1, is the personification of blowback. And the fact that he is viewed as a hero by millions in the Islamic world proves again the old adage: Reap what you sow.

As anyone who has bothered to read this far certainly knows by now, bin Laden is the heir to Saudi construction fortune who, at least since the early 1990s, has used that money to finance countless attacks on U.S. interests and those of its Arab allies around the world.
As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.
What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

By no means was Osama bin Laden the leader of Afghanistan’s mujahedeen. His money gave him undue prominence in the Afghan struggle, but the vast majority of those who fought and died for Afghanistan’s freedom - like the Taliban regime that now holds sway over most of that tortured nation - were Afghan nationals.
Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.

www.thetip.org...


tomflocco.com...

CIA asset tied to bin Laden infiltrated FBI before 9/11

Special prosecutor Fitzgerald met twice with asset, covered up links to al Qaeda and corruption implicating immigration officials and NY Mayor Giuliani--all connected to documents linking Vice President Cheney to 9/11 plot in Philippines

www.globalresearch.ca...

If the CBS report by Dan Rather is accurate and Osama had indeed been admitted to the Pakistani military hospital on September 10, 2001, courtesy of America's ally, he was in all likelihood still in hospital in Rawalpindi on the 11th of September, when the attacks occurred. In all probability, his whereabouts were known to US officials on the morning of September 12, when Secretary of State Colin Powell initiated negotiations with Pakistan, with a view to arresting and extraditing bin Laden.

Granted he may have been in the hospital when it all went down. I understand how a cell works. If the leadership fails, there are still many operatives in the field.

However, the leads make a great deal of sense to me, albeit a little confusing with the links.

I hope this helped some of you.

Good to have the info where I can find it. I was familiar with most of it.

I think reasonable non-conspiracy, view would be that Khalid Sheik Mohammed was the actual instigator of the attacks. This is what the 911 commission determined.

Al Qaeda had merely given him money and troops plus some training that may not have been that useful. The picture painted by investigations is that Khalid had grown to distrust OBL, or at least the machinery of Al Qaeda; he didn't give specifics on the plan until it had passed the moment of commitment.

Probably because he didn't fully trust OBL's lieutenants to keep their mouths shut.

OBL, in true politician-style, acted like it was his genius that had achieved the whole thing----sort of like Edison claiming to invent the lightbulb.

In that case, a time-machine would be even less useful that we'd previously discussed. . . .
.

Ah, but you forget Future Imperfect. If we have the time travel technology now, then we have it in the future as well. It could be said that the bravado on all sides is the last stands of a dying system. In this case oil. we have alternate ideas now, but are too far from implimenting them. Without oil, and something to replace it, the whole world will grind to a halt. USA's size, ecconomic levels and personal ideologies require cheep transportation to maintain our currently advancing/stangnating (depends on how you see it) status. Without transportation, we will backslide.

The Middle East as a whole and OPEC nations in general know that US power comes from oil. Being that they are the hand that rocks the cradle, they are emboldened and determined to advance their position. Now that they have the money and whole world depends upon them. It is much like the joke about which body part is the boss and why all bosses are a-holes.

Since the future has the ability to travel back and correct things in the past too. They would also do subtile things to correct their present as well. Subtile things so the old primatives (our present selves) would think that everything we do is our idea. Think of Bush's great, great, great, great grandchild George HWXYZ$& Bush (they might use other characters by then--Jenna is flakey enough to start it) is taking out the Iran-China-Romania Superpower (shrug-it's the future) by placing actions in motion now and in our recent past like the USS Cole.

Of course all the converging time continuums from all the time travelers would look strange if you could observe them uneffected with different people dying and living coming into and out of existance as their histories and ancestors live or die accordingly. 30 year olds with a wife and children springing into exsitance with full lifetime memories because their grandfather survived D-day and people inside the continuum knew them.

Time travel would just make our already strange world truely bizarre.

If our government had a dimensional portal it would never get used.

The politicians and lawyers would have it bogged down in paperwork and red tape. No one would get access to it.

FlyersFan,

That is where you are wrong.

The intelligence community knows no limits. They are able to operate without restrictions.

If anything, the military is already using it now.

You are right about politicians though. As soon as their hands got near it, the whole project would collapse.

Plus they don't know how to keep their dirty hands clean or grubby mouths shut (is that a word?).

If anything, the military is already using it now.

If so, what makes you think so. Proof, or evidence to the contrary? I mean, outside of tatically, I don't see any reason. it's kind of superfluous.

There are several things about this thread that touch a place in my mind that seldom gets enough of a workout.

First, one would assume that time travel and manipulation of the past would happen as soon as the technology that created it would allow. This would mean that if past(?) experience with other technologies is any indicator, it would be clumsy and costly to use in it's earliest forms.

G. #$%^&* Bush, 63rd President of the Re-Constituted States of North America would want to secure, through the exploitation of the past, some item or supply that he vastly needs at that future date. Oil comes to mind.

Since sending back troops or radical technology from the 22nd century would do very little in a real sense, some other means to control "past" events would be needed. Plus these actions would need a high amount of secrecy to work well.

However, a bit of cosmetic surgery and some coaching, could place a "double" into a sensitive position to influence "history" towards an outcome that would favor the 22nd century, albeit at great cost and suffering to the 21st century.

A few dozen key operatives could allow 9/11 to lead to a war for the purpose of gaining an oil rich region like the Middle East. A few CIA "doubles", a few mid-level politician "doubles", and one key "double"; Bush43.

This would even explain the abuse of power, the speech changes that have been noticed, and the overall lack of comprehension that have marked 43 in the last few years. Such an exchanged double would have no emotional ties to this era, and would lack certain social skills and such due to a different cultural upbringing. Also, the extreme stress of playing such a dangerous part would lead to a certain level of odd behavior. All of which have been mentioned by many people about the person we think of as G. W. Bush.

Could 43s purchase of a 100,000 acre ranch in Paraguay be a clue to his future exit plans back to another time? Sure is remote country down there, where a person could do whatever money could afford to accomplish.

Just a thought or two from a slightly deranged mind.

Whats to say governments or the intellegence community hasnt attempted to alter space/time, only to have the universe balance itself out?

What if 9/11 was the balancing act the universe played when the US used such a device to avoid an even worse catastrophy?

Just a thought.