An Iraqi boy takes cover behind an American soldier.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by intrepid

I haven't seen this. Care to elaborate on this? I think we DID learn that lesson from Viet Nam.

Have we?

Lets go to this story...

FORT WORTH, Texas -- The owner of a local convenience store tells NBC 5 he has fired an employee who mistreated a customer who is also a U.S. Marine.

The firing comes in response to protests at the store as well as an e-mail campaign circulating throughout Dallas/Fort Worth. The e-mail, written by Heather Dowell, tells of her brother's treatment while visiting the store.

According to Dowell's e-mail, her brother, Jason Young, attempted to make a purchase at the One Stop Grocery and Grill on 8th Avenue in Fort Worth. The clerk allegedly asked if Young was a Marine, and when he replied yes, the clerk left the counter and never returned.

Outraged, Dowell began the e-mail campaign calling for the boycott of the store.

On Tuesday, several people protested the store as the e-mail continued to make its rounds.

According to the store owner, the incident was a misunderstanding and the employee in question was fired.

Now when reports of atrocities committed by Army and Marine personnel, civilians with radio and tv tends to view the personnel as a bunch of murderers. Just like during Vietnam War when many Americans have tvs and watching news of civilians getting killed in the war, they blame the troops, airmen, sailors, etc.

Are we seeing it again?

Hey man, I provided the stats. American soldiers kill 4 times as many civilians in Iraq as insurgents. Who else but the troops, airmen, sailors, etc. are to blame for the dead people?

The troops, airmen, sailors, etc. are the ones who carry the guns and bombs, the ones who drop the guns and bombs, and the ones who kill all the innocent people with those guns and bombs.

I contend that the people responsible for the dead, innocent people are the ones who actually killed the dead, innocent people. I don't know what warped way you look at it but in a rational mind the person who murdered is the murderer, not the person who told the person to murder. It's like the thing your parents talked to you about: some kid may tell you to jump off a bridge but if you jump off the bridge then it's your own fault.

[edit on 5/31/07 by RedDragon]

Originally posted by Langolier
I hold the insurgents more responsible for the bloodshed than I do the Coalition.
[edit on 30-5-2007 by Langolier]

Again, you're completely blind to the statistics. The statistics show that the coalition is 4 times more responsible than the insurgents for the bloodshed and that's even counting dead policemen, etc. as civilians which I think is wrong. Classify them as military and the number goes even higher.

You've done nothing to hold that the insurgents are more responsible for the bloodshed than offer emotions and emotions are held equally by both sides.

The fact also remains that the insurgents didn't pick to start the bloodshed with us; we started it with them by invading their country.

[edit on 5/31/07 by RedDragon]

Originally posted by RedDragon
Hey man, I provided the stats. American soldiers kill 4 times as many civilians in Iraq as insurgents. Who else but the troops, airmen, sailors, etc. are to blame for the dead people?

The troops, airmen, sailors, etc. are the ones who carry the guns and bombs, the ones who drop the guns and bombs, and the ones who kill all the innocent people with those guns and bombs.

Let me see that stats again if you provide please? I like to see the proof that Americans kill 4 times as many as insurgents did.

If all the heros overseas were doing in America what they're doing in Iraq then they'd be serving 10 year to life sentences in high-security prison. Somehow, in some peoples' minds, murdering people over in Iraq instead of here in America makes it a heroic deed instead of a jailable crime (unintentional manslaughter).

If people had to actually live over there like most Iraqis do then they'd quickly change their minds. If Chinese soldiers were over here trying to spread their, in their view, superior form of government in communism, we'd absolutely hate them and call them murderers, terrorists, etc. too. A lot of you would probably start insurgencies and fight back too.

The fact that Americans are seperated by a gigantic ocean from all the carnage and crime they're commiting is a huge misfortane because most people really underestimate the horrible things they're paying, and thus responsible, for.


[edit on 5/31/07 by RedDragon]

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by RedDragon
Hey man, I provided the stats. American soldiers kill 4 times as many civilians in Iraq as insurgents. Who else but the troops, airmen, sailors, etc. are to blame for the dead people?

The troops, airmen, sailors, etc. are the ones who carry the guns and bombs, the ones who drop the guns and bombs, and the ones who kill all the innocent people with those guns and bombs.

Let me see that stats again if you provide please? I like to see the proof that Americans kill 4 times as many as insurgents did.

I've provided the source twice in this thread: Iraqi Body Count. Google it up.

Coalition troops are responsible for 37% of civilian fatalities since 2003 while insurgents are responsible for 9%.

Originally posted by RedDragon
I've provided the source twice in this thread: Iraqi Body Count. Google it up.

Coalition troops are responsible for 37% of civilian fatalities since 2003 while insurgents are responsible for 9%.

Well provide it again, as I ask politely instead of having me going around the place. I went to Iraqi Body Count and it just shows this.

And this is just page 1.

www.iraqbodycount.net...

I don't see how this proves that Americans are responsible for the majority of civilian casualties when you got data that shows otherwise.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by RedDragon
I've provided the source twice in this thread: Iraqi Body Count. Google it up.

Coalition troops are responsible for 37% of civilian fatalities since 2003 while insurgents are responsible for 9%.

Well provide it again, as I ask politely instead of having me going around the place. I went to Iraqi Body Count and it just shows this.

And this is just page 1.

www.iraqbodycount.net...

I don't see how this proves that Americans are responsible for the majority of civilian casualties when you got data that shows otherwise.

The report says the US and its allies were responsible for the largest share (37%) of the 24,865 deaths. The remaining deaths were attributed to anti-occupation forces (9%), crime (36%), and unknown agents (11%).

Who did the killing?
* 37%. US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims.
* 9%. Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims.
* 36%. Post-invasion criminal violence accounted for 36% of all deaths.
* 11%. Unknown agents (11%).

Killings by anti-occupation forces, crime and unknown agents have shown a steady rise over the entire period.

Originally posted by RedDragon
The report says the US and its allies were responsible for the largest share (37%) of the 24,865 deaths. The remaining deaths were attributed to anti-occupation forces (9%), crime (36%), and unknown agents (11%).

Who did the killing?
* 37%. US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims.
* 9%. Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims.
* 36%. Post-invasion criminal violence accounted for 36% of all deaths.
* 11%. Unknown agents (11%).

Killings by anti-occupation forces, crime and unknown agents have shown a steady rise over the entire period.

How about giving me the link so I can see it myself instead of just copy and paste some context with no link.

Seeing that picture, made my eyes water, and I felt empathy for the soldier as well as the boy in that picture. Having young son's myself, I could never imagine my kids having to fear for their life in such a manner. When will this END? Will it EVER end? I can't express enough how much this breaks my heart and to know it happens every day, and thousands of children go through the same things. Sometimes I wonder if WE the people have ANY power at all, or any say in what our government does and doesn't do.
I don't know where you get your news, but I've never heard of any war protesters that accuse the Soldiers of baby killing.

That's a very human reaction from a scared little boy.

God bless him.

[edit] and the soldier too.

War is so ugly - when will we stop.







[edit on 31/5/2007 by akabigfoot]

Originally posted by RedDragon

Originally posted by Langolier
I hold the insurgents more responsible for the bloodshed than I do the Coalition.
[edit on 30-5-2007 by Langolier]

Again, you're completely blind to the statistics. The statistics show that the coalition is 4 times more responsible than the insurgents for the bloodshed and that's even counting dead policemen, etc. as civilians which I think is wrong.
[edit on 5/31/07 by RedDragon]

What statistics are these?

I was about to post the boy was doing the smart thing. If he hid behind an Iraqi adult, the only thing that would protect him from bullets or shrapnel would be a few inches of flesh and bone. If he hid beind a U.S. soldier, he would have a few inches of flesh and bonde to protect him to protect him plus the soldier's body armor. Then I remembered, not all the U.S. soldiers have body armor.

Nope the kids hid behind the soldier because he respects him as a savior from whatever bully is starting the fighting down the street.

On a side note. we've probably killed more civilians than the insurgents. And IED will tag about 8-40 people. What about the massive casualties that aren't reported when we do fire for effect artillary strikes onto towns and blow the F out of everything indescriminatly when we shell a city or town for 24 hours non stop to soften it up for the first wave of marines. what about the DIPCM rounds. what about the WP. I know my friends have personally seen poor fire discapline and seen entire villages that have been thuroughly glassed and deemed not a threat get turned into gysers or dust and dirt by bushmasters and over zelouse guys with mk14s. watched civilians disapear in colomns of smoke and dirt from out own rounds as they huddle in their backyards in fear. the village in question wasn't doing anything threatening. What about how many targets that look like forward observers or the shepard boys running through a field with a walking stick and some marine gunner takes the guy out on accident mistaking it for a weapon. what about everytime we get ambushed and the only option to suppress the fire is to shoot at every possible target and windows killing several indescriminantly. What about all the massacres at road checks due to stupid iraqis that can't figure out they are at a road block and keep driving after the warning shots are issued. what about all the sub munitions littering the ground or unexploded ordinance that the kids get blown up playing with. what about all the people who die because we blew up all their medical infistructure. what about all the civilians who die cause our bombs shattered all of the cities sewers letting huge pools of crap water and pestilance infect cities at a time. what about the people who died because we blew up their power and now they are dying from heat exhaustion. they do live in a desert. what about all the water mains that are blown to bits and all the people babies in paticular that die from dehydration.

Not blaming the american military for all of these deaths, war is war. and we did what was neccessary to defeat the iraqi military. but these deaths are attributed to our actions and we are responsible. THe numbers are probably right if they say that we've killed far more civilians than the insurgents.

America's enemies know no shame and they walk among us openly, using our freedoms, paid for by the lives of the brave, to slander our cause and to defame our finest.

The soldiers come home with stories of the good they do and they return time and again because there are not enough of the brave to supplement their numbers.

These are the darkest of times when we have twenty year old men walking our streets with their pants below their butts and their ears stretched out like savages, while young American women are being blown apart overseas seeking to quell the blood lust of radical Islamists.

These are shameful times.

Crikey Grady.

So what you are telling us is that people should have no right to freedom of expression via their appearance because they look like savages when they do, and that everyone should be made to serve in the army?

And you are telling us that US forces recruiters don't go to poorer areas of the country and entice people into the armed forces with promises of career advancement and academic scholarship assistance?

And its only young American women getting blown apart, and only by Islamists? Its not normal Iraqi people, men women and chilfren, who were bombed and have been shot at by US forces who are occupying a country without international mandate and the backing of the UN Security Council?

You are right about one thing. These are shameful times. Its shameful when someone only ever looks at one side of the story Grady. Its shameful that someone can be so blinded by hatred.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

These are the darkest of times when we have twenty year old men walking our streets with their pants below their butts and their ears stretched out like savages, while young American women are being blown apart overseas seeking to quell the blood lust of radical Islamists.
.

[removed inappropriate comment directed at a fellow member]

seriously, why are old people always hating on new generations acting like we have no morals?


lets compare older generations to the new one:
old:
- segregation (racist)
- vietnam (killing millions of people)
- more conformity (less individuality)
- openly gay people get killed
- less of you guys got a college education

new:
- no segregation (no racist)
- Iraq (just killing thousands of people)
- less conformity (more individuality)
- more tolerant of gay people
- more of us getting college educated

I see older generations bagging on newer ones all the time but it seems to me like we're the nicer people. I bet your parents were ragging on you for those crazy bell-bottoms and '___' smoking of your generation.

Also, trying to make us sound like uneducated thugs wearing baggy pants.. we're more educated than you are. We have more people going to and graduating college. We're smarter than you, more tolerant than you, kill less people than you, free to express our real personalities more than you, and just all around better people than you.


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[edit on 1-6-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by BASSPLYR

Not blaming the american military for all of these deaths, war is war..

That doesn't take the blame off of the American military at all.

If I go kill 10 people and, let's make a word for it "mumba", and say don't worry, I'm not to blame because I was just doing "mumba" then, well you get the point.

War being war doesn't justify mass murder.

Red Dragon you are completely out of line. I've read your nonsense and refrained from saying anything since you have the right to your opinion yeah I gave 10 years of my life to make sure you did. My brother is spending his time now ensuring you do. But when you make blanket statements negative to an entire generation in addition to calling our forces murders you've gone too far. Just as you have the right to speak your mind so too does Grady. By the by you're not better educated and smarter and from what I've read sir certainly not nicer.

Originally posted by neformore
So what you are telling us is that people should have no right to freedom of expression via their appearance because they look like savages when they do, and that everyone should be made to serve in the army?

As for most of what you said, I think you're reading too much into what I said or you're bringing up topics I didn't broach, but yes, I do think that there should be a draft.

I also think that a lot of kids are tattooing themselves and getting their ears guaged just to make themselves unsuitable for military service and that's the same thing as cowardice and not a free expression issue.

By the way, I grew up poor and enlisted with the idea that if I survived, I could further my education, but my primary purpose for enlisting was to serve my country during a time of war.

Crikey?

Isn't that an Aussie term. Australians can do or not do as Australians choose.

I'm an American and I speak to American issues.

so you join the military for any reason. Could be for education could be for blood lust. It could be to see the world. it could be to seek the comraderie one has with his brothers in arms. but so there you are in the marines serving yuor time at some base somewhere and you get called to active war. You go, and angry people are using pretty dasderdly tactics against you and you're 20 other best friends at the time. people are shooting at you from god knows where because your in the middle of an ambush. You fire back in supressive fire mode. sweep every possible window to keep the attackers from getting a good shot at you and your 20 best friends. who are just about anybody in your platoon. cause you all are saving each others asses every moment. they need you you need them. so you are fighting with all your might so that you and your closest friends don't die horribly.

Now a bunch of dead insurgents lay on the ground. and a dozen or so innocent civilians who were unlucky enough to be in the cross fire of a group of people who chose the time and place to assult somebody and the devender who is fighting for their life. Did you just murder those people? Not really. it's because of your bullet or tow missile that collateral casualties happened, but are you a murderer for that? Not according to the bible. Not according to the laws of almost every country in the world. the general human consenses is that war sucks, it's brutal, people die. and it's always better that it's them and not you, oh yeah and because war is hell. s happens a lot. thats why they have acronyms like SNAFU, TARFU, and FUBAR in the military.

soldiers are incredible brave. and killing is never easy for anybody. not even for marines. trust me they feel awful when a civilian gets whacked by accident. it really eats at them over time.