An Iraqi boy takes cover behind an American soldier.

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posted on May, 30 2007 @ 05:27 PM
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It may sound funny but there is a difference between murder and killing someone in a State sanctioned armed conflict.


but you can still murder someone while engaged in a state sanctioned armed conflict if you intentionally kill non-sanctioned people or target, knowingly or recklessly, non-sanctioned groups, isn't that true? and couldn't innocents be interpreted to mean non-sanctioned targets? murder is still murder weather or not your in a war zone.




posted on May, 30 2007 @ 05:28 PM
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I support all troops in this bogus WOT.

They are between a rock and a hard place...Fight for your country or be thrown in jail with the threat of being shot as treasonous for daring to stand up for right to choose NOT TO FIGHT.


I hate this war and the lies we have all been fed but I feel for all the troops and their families.





posted on May, 30 2007 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499
It may sound funny but there is a difference between murder and killing someone in a State sanctioned armed conflict. This is a serious subject to me. If you have a problem with the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan then take it up with the people responsible, the US Government, but make sure that you hold ALL of them accountable. Even the ones who changed their minds! I understand that there have been incidents where US soldiers comitted criminal acts and I am 100% in favor of them being punished, but when you try to call all of them murderers that is a crock of sh*t and as a veteran I take it personally.



You've taken it way out of context and completely missed the point of my post, instead you get on your high horse and make assumptions about me personally.

i tried to elaborate on what was, in essence, a tongue in cheek remark. If your not able to understand that, then I fail to see what else I can say.

I personally never chose to abstain from service, rather it was forced upon me at the time I wanted to join by a horrible knew injury. I am actually contemplating joining the RAF, so I'm not calling anyone anything. I was merely elaborating on someone else's assertion about soldiers being murderer's.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Naw I'm with Jim on this. It's hard to figure out what will get warned and what won't. I know there are T&Cs but the application of them is a complete crap shoot and somewhat biased. sorry mods.

I actually like the mods here though. they are cooler than plenty of other online forums.


In a case like this, then file a Complaint/Suggestion. All of the staff see it. I've been following this thread, did I miss something? It's possible. Mine is a military family as well, if I saw something untoward I would have acted on it. I just didn't see it. Maybe my sarcasm meter is set too high.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by Valdimer
Support the troops. It's not thier fault they are over there,


This is the most false statement of the day...

No one took a gun to their heads and made them sign into the army.

At least not yet.....



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:08 PM
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How is that a false statement?


When they signed up for service in the military, they are required to go and defend the interests of this country, REGARDLESS of who is in power. They do not have a choice, hence, not being held responsible for going.

So, explain to me as to how this statement is false?



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by stumason
Not that I am religious, but the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill".

Of course you realize that "killing" means for personal gain or done unjustly. There's no stipulation against warfare or justice.
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If you feel this way however, I respect your right to obstain from the military.


There is no stipulation either way, to be accurate. It just say's "Don't kill".

Obviously, the Bible is contradictory as in later chapters, God is quite clearly egging on certain groups and people to kill in his name and often just cuts out the middle man doing it himself.

I never willingly abstained from service, as I said, it was because of a Rugby injury that I didn't sign up at 16.

JIM has completely gone off the deep end and if he went back and re-read what I said, I was merely hypothesising on the point brought up about soldiers being murderers.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Valdimer
How is that a false statement?


When they signed up for service in the military, they are required to go and defend the interests of this country, REGARDLESS of who is in power. They do not have a choice, hence, not being held responsible for going.

So, explain to me as to how this statement is false?


Again i repeat,

No one put a gun to their heads to make them sign up for the military in the first place.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:24 PM
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People have the right to view a soldier killing another person and not think it's murder.

I have the right to think that a soldier killing another person no matter what the situation, is murder.

That's my personal view on murder and no political ideological twist is going to change the way i feel about murdering any living beings.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:39 PM
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Ok, let me make sure I'm reading this correctly.


By me saying that it is not thier fault they are over there, you state that it is a false statement by also stating that no one has put a gun to thier heads. In response, I ask you to clarify, and you repeat?

Your first statement made no sense at all, and then you repeat when I ask for clarification?

Dude...


They made the choice to go into service for this country. I'll agree with you on the fact that no one put a gun to thier heads. But that still doesn't answer my question as to it being a soldier's fault for being over there?



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:52 PM
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Statistics show that the U.S is reponsible for the murders of 37% of dead Iraqi civilians killed in violence since 2003- more than any other group. Insurgents are responsible for a smaller figure of 9%. Crime accounts for 36% of deaths.


CODSWALLOP!!! Insurgents are only responsible for 9% of those deaths? Bull#.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by RedDragon
Likewise, all of our troops that have killed innocent people overseas are also murderers- not heros.


[edit on 5/30/07 by RedDragon]


Well, I suppose by definition anyone who is a Soldier is a State sanctioned killer and anyone wanting to join the Military is, by definition, conspiring to commit murder. Technically speaking, of course.....




Ok these two comments are enough! I have F%#king had it. I want to know where the mods are that allow comments like this to be posted! If I made statements like this against the Iraqi insurgants, Iranians, Chinese or North Koreans I would be guarenteed a warning at minimum!


Insurgents that kill innocent people are also murderers.

I'm not trying to put a false picture on anyone here- you kill an innocent person and you're a murderer, whether your American, Iraqi, North Korean, or Chinese.

I didn't call all troops murderers, just the ones that have killed innocent people whether they be pilots dropping bombs on innocent people or GIs shooting innocent people on the ground.

I just pointed out that, contrary to what most people believe for some reason, Americans kill more Iraqi civilians than insurgents (4 times as many) and kill more civilians than terrorists kill American civilians and military (3,000 times as many).


[edit on 5/30/07 by RedDragon]



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by stumason
Not that I am religious, but the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill".

Of course you realize that "killing" means for personal gain or done unjustly. There's no stipulation against warfare or justice. Naturally I don't feel you should obey orders if you're told to mow down a group of unarmed children, but if your superior says that a group of men are the enemy, or you see them shooting at you...let the bullets fly.

If you feel this way however, I respect your right to obstain from the military.


The problem here is that we were the initial attackers and they're the ones fighting in self defense, something that people seem to be forgetting.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by Freezer
Did the soldiers make the decision to go into wars?

That the soldiers didn't make the decision to go into war is another common misconception.

Of course they decided to go to war. Wars can't be fought without soldiers so the soldiers are obviously the people ultimately responsible for the war and all the resulting death since they were the ones that actually carried it out. Politicians and generals write words on paper but the soldiers are the ones with the guns and bombs shooting and bombing people.

You remember the draft dodgers in the 60s and 70s? They were ordered to go to war but made the decision not to go to war. People over in Iraq were ordered to go to war and made the decision to comply with those orders (and go to war). Of course, if they didn't comply then they would go to jail but they still made the decision to go to war and put themselves in that situation in the first place by joining the military. Draft dodgers faced the same risk and were only saved by Canada's grace.

In fact, there actually a few hundred soldiers right now who did choose not to go to war and they are fighting a battle in the Canadian legal system. Whether they will be afforded the same grace as the Vietnam War draft dodgers remains to be seen, but they're willing to risk going to jail over risking killing innocent people when they drop around bombs in crowded cities hoping to kill insurgents and somehow magically miss all the civilians walking around on the streets.

[edit on 5/30/07 by RedDragon]



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 07:03 PM
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The insurgents are fighting in self defense?

Come on!


Do you realize what they are fighting for? They don't want that country ruled fairly. They want complete and total control over everything the citizens of Iraq do.

If you honestly believe it's in self defense, you need to do a little bit more research.


And as far as us killing more innocent civilians? I think those numbers are completly wrong. You make it sound as if our troops go out and kill innocent people like it's a normal part of the day!




posted on May, 30 2007 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by Valdimer
1) If you honestly believe it's in self defense, you need to do a little bit more research.


2) And as far as us killing more innocent civilians? I think those numbers are completly wrong. You make it sound as if our troops go out and kill innocent people like it's a normal part of the day!


1) Agreeing with what the insurgents want to do politically and saying whether they're fighting in self defense are two completely different things. I don't agree with what they want to do politically either. The fact remains that we attacked Iraq before Iraq attacked us therefor whoever is fighting against us now is fighting in self defense.

2) People keep telling me my numbers are wrong but I seem to be the only person actually citing numbers right now. I'm presenting facts and you're presenting your emotions about the facts. Choose which argument is more convincing.

[edit on 5/30/07 by RedDragon]



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by Valdimer


And as far as us killing more innocent civilians? I think those numbers are completly wrong. You make it sound as if our troops go out and kill innocent people like it's a normal part of the day!



Vladimer, you'd be surprised how many people believe that garbage, or maybe you wouldn't. It's a crazy notion in my honest opinion.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 07:09 PM
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Devil's advocate here


Originally posted by Valdimer
Do you realize what they are fighting for? They don't want that country ruled fairly. They want complete and total control over everything the citizens of Iraq do.



And how does this differ from what the Bush Administration wants?



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 07:11 PM
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Intrepid, wanting to install a democratic government is a far cry from wanting to install some Mullah controlled theocracy.



posted on May, 30 2007 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by RedDragon


2) People keep telling me my numbers are wrong but I seem to be the only person actually citing numbers right now. I'm presenting facts and you're presenting your emotions about the facts. Choose which argument is more convincing.

[edit on 5/30/07 by RedDragon]


Well, have you provided any concrete links for your facts? If not, they are just opinion.






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