F-22 Raptor- I'm a convert!

As many know, for a long time, I've been some-what skeptical of the new F-22 Raptor that was developed by Lockheed for the ATF. Until yesterday, I though the Air Force had taken a second-place fighter as the replacement for the Eagle. So what changed you ask?

Yesterday, I was at Anderws AFB for the Armed Forces Day Open House. Among the many flight demos, was the F-22. I still can't believe what I witnessed out there.

BACKFLIPS I saw a stealth fighter doing backflips in front of me at speeds so low that any other fighter plane would have stalled out. How do you do backflips only a few hundred feet in the air and slow down to almost a hover without stalling? Given that the F-22 is Not a V/STOL aircraft, this normally shouldn't have been possible!

As if this wasn't enough, I watch the plane go supersonic. It didn't have the sharp cracking sonic boom I expcted either. It flew silently over my head and dissappeared into the clouds and a few moments later, I heard the unmistakable whine of the F-119 engines overhead. The Pilot even did a demo of opening the weapons bays in a supersonic roll.

The only person I could imagion Not being thankful to see F-22 in the US Air Force Inventory, is the poor ENEMY fighter pilot who will get the dubious destintion of being the Raptor's First Combat Kill!

Tim

Originally posted by Ghost01
How do you do backflips only a few hundred feet in the air and slow down to almost a hover without stalling?

Given that the F-22 is Not a V/STOL aircraft, this normally shouldn't have been possible!

A greater than 1:1 thrust to weight ratio, and a very lightly fueled aircraft.

The F-22 has a 1.26 thrust to weight ratio, which enables it to supercruise and also do the tricks you saw when its fueld just enough for the airshow performance.

As if this wasn't enough, I watch the plane go supersonic. It didn't have the sharp cracking sonic boom I expcted either. It flew silently over my head and dissappeared into the clouds and a few moments later, I heard the unmistakable whine of the F-119 engines overhead. The Pilot even did a demo of opening the weapons bays in a supersonic roll.

Supersonic at a US airshow? I highly doubt that.

Originally posted by Ghost01
BACKFLIPS

I saw a stealth fighter doing backflips in front of me at speeds so low that any other fighter plane would have stalled out. How do you do backflips only a few hundred feet in the air and slow down to almost a hover without stalling?

Given that the F-22 is Not a V/STOL aircraft, this normally shouldn't have been possible!

If the backflips you are referring to are kulbits, this is not something special. Russian Su-27s have been doing them for years without thrust vectoring.

As for the slowing down and stalling, this is the traditional cobra maneuver. The aircraft can do this because it's diverting all of its primary thrust downwards like a rocket. Since the F-22 can put out a thrust-to-weight ratio greater than one, it is theoretically able to tilt back and blast off like a rocket.

Now, those maneuvers are impressive, but they're a poor standard to judge the aircraft by. They are actually not uncommon for aircraft today. If you want to see an aircraft doing maneuvers that makes all others drool, look at the MiG-29 OVT (now marketed under MiG 35). It has 360 degree TVC and has invented 3 maneuvers to my knowledge (I also think there's still a contest going on in Russia to find names for these). I have found a video somewhere on YouTube where the OVT does a cobra, does a backflip in place and returns to the cobra in the same spot. THAT is impressive. I'll look around YouTube and find it for you.

Anyway, on the topic of the Raptor, I still don't like it because of the hype, but I'm definitely going to say it's the best aircraft currently out there. I have no problem with people telling me that the Raptor is really good and all, but I find it sometimes at the point where they have pages of of as to why the Raptor is the ultimate aircraft and will never be replaced, that it's a bit overhyped.

Rant over. Sorry 'bout that.

Originally posted by RichardPrice
Supersonic at a US airshow? I highly doubt that.

Very unusual I know, but how do you explain that it was silent until a few minutes after it had flown over the air feild?

Tim

The maneuver you're looking for starts at about 1:50/7:45, so the meter here reads about 5:55. The MiG ascends at speeds just entering cobra territory, does a kulbit in place (with the smoke, you can see that the wingtips don't move... At all.), and promptly returns and finishes the cobra. The rest of it's pretty cool too.

[edit on 5/20/2007 by Darkpr0]

Originally posted by Ghost01

Very unusual I know, but how do you explain that it was silent until a few minutes after it had flown over the air feild?

Tim

Wind direction, height, type of thrust, speed (probably just under supersonic), many many other factors.

Its not that unusual to not hear an aircraft until its gone - air is a fluid and as such is not a guaranteed medium for sound.

Plus many people have heard the F-22 fly supersonic, it does make a large bang as expected - you would know it if it did, because Andrews AFB would be picking up the bill for a lot of broken windows.

As an air show groupie I can tell you that it is extremely common for an aircraft to approach and pass silently overhead only for the sound to hit you right in the stomach after its gone, every fast jet combat aircaft does it and has for the whole 30 years I've been going.

If you can get to see the film 'Sound Barrier' starring Ralph Richardson as the grumpy old owner of the aircraft factory( very cheap on DVD ), you will see a Supermarine Attacker doing it too, and that had a top speed of 590 mph.

RE: The stalls and amazing manuevers of the F-22.

I was driving by Tyndall AFB about a 3 months ago and saw the 22's praticing. For about 20 seconds I was convinced I was looking at a UFO. The Raptor stopped (or maybe slowed depending on my angle of view) to the point where it looked like it was hovering.

I know that harriers have been able to do that for a while but it really made me gasp when I saw it. There's no doubt in my mind that it's a fine aircraft. How can it do that without turning it's engines down 90 degrees? I know that it has thrust vectoring... is that the same as the harrier because the engines look a lot different to me.

I just really want to see the inside of one. I took an incentive flight in an F-16 and the electronics seemed dated to me... The F-22 probably looks incredible in the cockpit.

Originally posted by Ghost01
Very unusual I know, but how do you explain that it was silent until a few minutes after it had flown over the air feild?

Tim

Doesn't have to be going supersonic for there to be a time delay between you seeing it flying over head and you hearing it flying over head.




Next time you see any aircraft (even a small cessna fly around), listen for what direction you think it is, you'll notice the lag.

Originally posted by radio_radio

I know that harriers have been able to do that for a while but it really made me gasp when I saw it. There's no doubt in my mind that it's a fine aircraft. How can it do that without turning it's engines down 90 degrees? I know that it has thrust vectoring... is that the same as the harrier because the engines look a lot different to me.

The Harrier does have thrust vectoring, its just that its never been referred to as such in common usage.

The F-22 however has a very low stall speed, allowing it to carry out very slow speed passes - but however it cannot hover, or get anywhere near a hover.

Originally posted by Ghost01
How do you do backflips only a few hundred feet in the air and slow down to almost a hover without stalling?

Given that the F-22 is Not a V/STOL aircraft, this normally shouldn't have been possible!

What was the speed?
Must've been between 150 -200kph I presume.
Two things that enable this:

1) Decent T/W ratio
2) TVC in the vertical plane

I've seen Su-30s do the 'slow' pass at speeds under 200kph(they didn't specify how much under 200kph)

EDIT:
What is the TVC swing aperture for the F-22?
30Deg either way?



[edit on 21-5-2007 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by RichardPrice
A greater than 1:1 thrust to weight ratio, and a very lightly fueled aircraft.

The F-22 would still be significantly over 1:1 even if fully internally armed and fueled. Still, when flying air show demos it usually takes off with nearly full tanks, unless you mean after it has burned some fuel doing air ops.

Originally posted by RichardPrice
Supersonic at a US airshow? I highly doubt that.

Technically not supersonic, but definitely transonic, I know for a fact that low alt high speed passes have been approved for 0.94 Mach.

Oh and Daedalus3, the F-119 can pitch +20 degrees on a strictly vertical axis.


Anyway Tim I find it rather sad that in this day and age you still need to wooed by virtually meaningless air show demonstrations in order to support a particular jet. Most of the features that make the F-22 the most advanced and capable fighter ever cannot be demonstrated at an air show...

[edit on 21-5-2007 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by Ghost01


Supersonic at a US airshow? I highly doubt that.

I was at an air show just two years ago in Oregon where a Super Hornet did a low altitude fly by and broke the sound barrier. It was really low and close to us when it flew by, and I'm pretty sure it broke the sound barrier because it vapored up and went extremely silent as it passed...

Originally posted by Stark
I was at an air show just two years ago in Oregon where a Super Hornet did a low altitude fly by and broke the sound barrier. It was really low and close to us when it flew by, and I'm pretty sure it broke the sound barrier because it vapored up and went extremely silent as it passed...

Did you hear a very loud, very painful bang? If not then the aircraft did not break the sound barrier.

The vapour doesnt mean anything, its entirely seperate from the aircrafts speed (on flightlevel350.com you can see standard civil airliners 'vapour up' on takeoff) and the noise loss can also be explained away.

Part of the stealthyness of the aircraft would be reducing and redirecting the jet engines sounds. It is not surprising that the aircraft would be near silent during periods of its attack run. Stealth is not just about not being seen by radar. It is also about not seeing a heat signature, seeing the aircraft visually and the aircraft being heard.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Anyway Tim I find it rather sad that in this day and age you still need to wooed by virtually meaningless air show demonstrations in order to support a particular jet. Most of the features that make the F-22 the most advanced and capable fighter ever cannot be demonstrated at an air show...
[edit on 21-5-2007 by WestPoint23]

WestPoint23,

I'm not that shallow! Please don't make me out in that way.

For the longest time, I was firm in my idea that the F-22 had been the second place ATF contender. I never denyed that it was a good plane. However, seeing the aircraft in flight gave me a different perspective on Lockheed's ATF program as a whole. For the longest time I've questioned if the F-22 really had some of the abilities they were claiming.

Watching the plane effortless demonstrate these flight manuvers proved (in my Mind) Lockheed's claim that they had indeed built a stealth fighter that could dogfight with anything in the sky. Until now I though the F-22 was second best to the YF-23 and it's technology. The demonstrating showed manuvers I'm not sure if an YF-23 could do!

Sorry if you are disappointed in the fact that I don't always take books on military stuff at face value.

Tim

[edit on 5/21/2007 by Ghost01]

Originally posted by RichardPrice

Supersonic at a US airshow? I highly doubt that.

a long time ago (1960's), the thunderbirds were doing an airshow in kelowna b.c. canada. one of the pilots nearly crashed, he had to do a sonic boom just over the city to avoid this. the result was almost every window downtown was shattered.

Tim, I posted what the F-22 could do a long time ago with an airshow video taken at Langley AFB. I guess you had to see it first hand to become a believer...opps, a convert.

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
I guess you had to see it first hand to become a believer...opps, a convert.

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Seekerof]

You are right about that! Also, if you read my earilier post, you will see that I am in the process of reevaluating some of my long held beliefs about military stratagy in general.

For example, when I Origionally came to ATS, I believed in the theory of invisibility as a weapon. My thinking was that stealth could trump any other capibilty in combat if employed correctly. Now, I believe that stealth can become a liability if Overused or Misused.

As I reasses my own beliefs, you will see my views and oppinions changing on many issues. You can lable it whatever you want to, but I believe in challanging my views based on what I learn, and growing from it!

Call me a Believer, Call me a Convert, just DON'T call me Late for Lunch!

Tim

Yeah I actually thought the F22 was the wrong concept to service winner. However with the latest software and other tweaks its definately shining more than quite a few other future fighters. The real key will be its BVR and further sensor accuracy as well as being able to fly most multi missions. My favorite concept on the F22 however is the reincorporation of internal stored armament. Kinda like the good ole AF Deltas's(102,106) of long years past.


[edit on 22-5-2007 by VType]