Freemasonry good, but infiltrated?

I wonder if Masonry is good, but has been infiltrated by others with more sinister motives. I was just talking with a DeMolay, and he said that Masonry had in fact experienced a Illuminati infiltration. He claims that Bush is both a Mason (perhaps an irregular one, thru Skull and Bones) and an Illuminatus. I've done some preliminary research and I've found a website (linked below) that also claims infiltration. I realize that this is an anti-Masonic website, but I want to see if kernels of truth can be extracted here. I'm going to try to be as neutral and not pro-mason or anti-mason on this thread. I apologize for anti-masonic rumors I've spread here in the past (360 degrees, P2 scandal, etc.) I would like to see if others can shed some light. (Pun very much intended)

www.holygrail-church.fsnet.co.uk...


[edit on 11-5-2007 by uberarcanist]

[edit on 11-5-2007 by uberarcanist]

Originally posted by uberarcanist
I was just talking with a DeMolay, and he said that Masonry had in fact experienced a Illuminati infiltration.

So, you were having this discussion with an older gentleman who is an alumni of the DeMolay program but is not an initiated Mason, or a current 12-21 year old member of the DeMolay program?

Also, I wouldn't necessarily refer to the possible co-membership by members of the Illuminati in Freemasonry an "infiltration". I'd rather just attribute it to the simple fact that people who seek higher knowledge generally tend to outreach as much as possible in order to learn as much as possible, and members of one order often seek membership in other comparable orders.

He claims that Bush is both a Mason (perhaps an irregular one, thru Skull and Bones) and an Illuminatus.

What does that even mean? An "irregular one", through association with an independent college society? Is it really that difficult to just say he's not an initiated Mason?

I'm a member of a Greek college society. Like all Greek college orders, we were influenced by Freemasonry. Does that make me, and everyone like me (as there are so many of us), an "irregular" mason?

Originally posted by uberarcanist
I wonder if Masonry is good, but has been infiltrated by others with more sinister motives.

Perhaps, to get the discussion started, you could summarize the main reasons that led you/this website to think this? I'd be very happy to give you my thoughts on their viability.

I think what leads one to think that masonry has been infiltrated is the large number of various organizations who have borrowed and adopted masonic symbolism and traditions. For a non-mason there is no easy way to see the difference. Freemasonry was very well designed, which is why it has lasted so long. It is not infiltrated because there is no power structure to grab. I posted the following in another thread today:

In every power structure, the ones at the top control the level below them and so on. So the people at the bottom take their orders from a level above them etc. This enables a few people to manage a large company or organization. The ones at the bottom may have little contact with they guys at the top but they have constant contact with the level of management just above them. There could be no way to hide the fact that the guys on the bottom were being managed in some way. Sooner or later you have to tell them what to do. They need to know who their superiors are in order to know who's orders to follow.
As a mason, there is nobody telling me what to do in life. I follow the ancient traditions that have changes little over the centuries but there is no power structure above me that I receive orders from. Each lodge is managed on a rotating leadership, each year the officers rotate positions and the guy at the top rotates out of the line so he is no longer and officer. The guy who becomes the new master of the lodge is elected by vote.
So if there were "high up masons" how would they control the masons below them who don't believe they exist? I don't think they could finance a war with my $35 yearly dues.
If any of you can find one of these elusive "Hight Up Masons", let us all know.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
I wonder if Masonry is good, but has been infiltrated by others with more sinister motives.

I would be hard-pressed to think of a single organization even half as big as the Masons, that hasnt been infiltrated by someone with other than benevolent motives. There are always a few bad apples in every bunch. The Masons just get a worse rep because they admit there are secrets, while most other groups just lie about it (politicians, religious leaders, corporations, schoolboards, unions, etc.)

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by uberarcanist
I wonder if Masonry is good, but has been infiltrated by others with more sinister motives.

I would be hard-pressed to think of a single organization even half as big as the Masons, that hasnt been infiltrated by someone with other than benevolent motives. There are always a few bad apples in every bunch. The Masons just get a worse rep because they admit there are secrets, while most other groups just lie about it (politicians, religious leaders, corporations, schoolboards, unions, etc.)

Just look at what Leo Taxil did. His motives were all about the all mighty $$

Well Brothers I am sorry I have to do this...

I have to tell a secret...

This morning in lodge (I go to a Morning lodge.. you would be surprised how many Masons have never heard of a Morning lodge?) I think I saw a brother who was ACTUALLY an Illuminatist..

Now, I admit he never openly admitted to being in the Illuminati, the look on his face was pure evil.. among other evil acts, like putting an extra sugar in my coffee.. I think he may control the world, or at least be among evil people who inside Masonry are taking over the world. I mean, in the middle of meeting, he would burst out in evil laughing tirades until content. He also put forth a motion that we start a charity for underprivileged Satanist.

I think his infiltration into our lodge room proves that the Illuminati are in fact taking over Masonry, to divert our own New World Order to bring about the other, slightly more sinister Other New World Order.. its about self preservation for our own power that the Illuminati is trying to steal from us! ... Or.. are WE the Illuminati, co-existing with Masonry while we are all the same body but having some kind of identity crisis so the plans for world dominance have been screwed up and can no longer be implemented because there are so many groups now bringing about the New World Order that as soon as you make a plan for a New World Order it will be done and a Newer World Order will need to be drawn up!!!!

AHH conspiracy theorist! Make up your damn minds as to who the bloody hell is taking over the world so we can get on with it and take it over!!!!!

I wonder if Masonry is good

Actually, I don't think you do. I think you already made your mind up about that.

but has been infiltrated by others with more sinister motives.

Read above. "More sinister" is that the ever so slightly more evil concoctions that the Masons that ARE NOT Illuminati members cannot think of?

I was just talking with a DeMolay

PHEW them DeMolay, crazy kids. We entrust all knowledge of the craft within them.. if you ever find them, they can give you the meanings of Masonry of every individual - some 5-6 million - and then tell you the absolute truth of the going ons of the craft, even though they are not actually Masons.

nd he said that Masonry had in fact experienced a Illuminati infiltration.

What is the Illuminati? Why is the Illuminati's number one enemy the Catholic Church? Is Illuminati to be Illuminated in the going ons of the world, to see people for what they are, to see religion for its bad, good and basic principles? Is to be Illuminated to be cut from the pack and to observe in the clearest form, not being subjected to the group mindset of institutions who are charged with directing the flow of human consciousness? Is to be an Illuminatist a philosophy where one looks to ones self for the answers without relying on the productions of institutions based around the principles of power and control?

I am an Illuminatist.

He claims that Bush is both a Mason (perhaps an irregular one, thru Skull and Bones) and an Illuminatus.

Bush is not a Mason. There is no "gray" so to speak, it is black and white, he is not a Mason. Skull and Bones is not a "irregular" nor "regular" Masonic institution. Its a club of rich frat boys who get together and make bets on who can screw the most easy college "talent". They give each other big pats on the back alright, but most are going to get one from Daddy anyways, so what the hells the point?

Il tell you what Bush is. He is a yale graduate (c average) his Father was a US President, hes a Skull and Bones alumni and hes a half wit public speaker.. however you CANNOT say he is an "Illuminatist" until what exactly a "Illuminatist" is can be fully discerned. Had he not been elected he would still be a bumbling failed businessman (all his businesses failed except the baseball team but only because he used millions in tax money).

I've done some preliminary research and I've found a website (linked below) that also claims infiltration.

I can list thousands of sites that claims this.. and I can trace 95% of them back to Christians that would most likely just claims to be oh-so concerned with lost Freemasons chance at "eternal salvation". First let me tell you this. There is no such thing as "Research" on the internet. You COULD say "preliminary" reading. or "preliminary" observation. Not research. Watching Google videos or you-tube productions and reading anti-Masonic websites from angry Christians, is not "research" and would be considered laughable if not sad in any academic circle.

I realize that this is an anti-Masonic website, but I want to see if kernels of truth can be extracted here.

Bigotry and self-righteous, conceded, unfounded "kernels" of lies can be found here.

I'm going to try to be as neutral and not pro-mason or anti-mason on this thread.

I welcome this attitude, but I have to wonder through experience. Will you heed advice, take into consideration points that are brought before you, will you put aside any personal prejudice against Masonry and actually accept a more rational point of view?

I apologize for anti-masonic rumors I've spread here in the past (360 degrees, P2 scandal, etc.) I would like to see if others can shed some light. (Pun very much intended)

You did not start any rumors, others start them for personal gain or vengance, and then people like your self simply pass them along, ensuring their survival.

Masonic charities help the illiterate/learning disabled learn to read, they rehabilitate burned children at no cost to themselves,often times including the transportation as well, they fingerprint and give an ID kit for children in the event that they are missing,Job's daughters visit hospitals and homes of the elderly,there are masonic cancer research centers.

All sounds resoundingly evil doesn't it.But that's ok I suppose that someone that has no experience with or involved in something, that is getting secondhand information from people who resoundingly ALWAYS have an agenda (buy a book, subscribe to a web site, looking for 15 minutes of fame, etc) , know a lot more about an organization that they do not belong to than the members of said organization.

Or at least that is what my shapeshifting, goats blood drinking , 33 degree reptilian overlord Annukai masters told me to say here. They told me that if I lie about their plans to the uninitiated masses that they will let me marry into their bloodline and have a child, but I think they may be lying to me because the Queen of England is too old to get pregnant.Maybe there is another single illuminati girl, and we can hatch some eggs and have lizard babies of our own. One can only dream.

Originally posted by brotherforchrist

Or at least that is what my shapeshifting, goats blood drinking , 33 degree reptilian overlord Annukai masters told me to say here.

Have you tried the new Diet Blood ? Half the calories of regular blood and now comes in 2 new flavors.."Anti Mason" and "Fundementalist Nutjob"

You can get it at the Moonbase Commisary

No I haven't I drink Baphomet Pike Punch though, it is pretty tasty,though not as good as Taxilberry.

Every day at work almost the two fundies preach to me about how I am going to hell for being a freemason, and I can't possibly be a christian, and that I am lying to them about my soul, etc.


I also get to hear daily that since I am not 32 degree yet or a Knight Templar that everything is hidden from me.Unfortunately due to my work schedule, I haven't been able to attend consistory and drink blood from a human skull yet, while I swear bloody oaths on the altar of foreign gods. :-(
so I guess that I don't know what I am talking about because I am only a "low level master mason", even though I am an officer in my lodge, and in the local lodge hold more authority than a 33 degree mason that comes by and sits in on a meeting....

The best is the fundie at work that says that I can't be a Christian and a Mason and I ask him if Robert Schuler, Jesse Jackson, and Newt Gingritch are Christian and he says yes. and I inform him that they are Masons.He had a pretty disgusted look on his face,but hey you can't talk logic to narrow minded dogmatic people who view the world as having two possible alternatives, their way and the wrong way.

They also don't have much to say when I tell them that they should be thanking Freemasonry for the fact that we do not have a state run totalitarian religion.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by brotherforchrist]

Uber, I have read Morals and Dogmas and Albert Pike did talk about an infiltration, at one point in time, of Masonry. He talked about how they had built themself up to over 800 degrees and such. However, Pike also stated that those who knew the true principles of Masonry dismantled this form of Masonry.

So, in answer to your question, I suppose one could argue that at one time Masonry was infiltrated by things that were not accurate. However, I don't know if the same can be said today. I personally don't think so.





[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Jesus Christ, you people are hopeless. Look, there is some corruption among Masonry, you can't deny it. Although it is probably all or mostly in the irregular lodges (P2 scandal, etc.), some of the wrong crowd have wrapped themselves up in Masonry. Everytime it's the same old tune. A poster brings something to the forefront, the predictable response from the Masonic crowd is: "Oho, there can't be anything wrong with Masonry!" Don't get me wrong, I think Masonry is great, and I aspire to be a Mason personally. But people who won't look themselves in the mirror and acknowledge potential problems are pathetic.

Uber, I just told you that even Albert Pike admitted as much. Christ, what else do you want? That doesn't mean I am going to say, "OOOH, Masons are a bunch of Satan worshipping "demons" that want to eat our brains." Get a grip,man!!



[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

That's ok, people want to hold masons to standards that they themselves oftentimes don't keep.Any hint of something that they find questionable, and the whole organization is bad, or ill informed.

Guess what, the BTK killer was a respected member of society and held a lot of influence in his church.Judging someone as a mason based on one particular mason is about as simpleminded as saying every Christian must be a serial killer because BTK claimed to be Christian.

Originally posted by brotherforchrist
Judging someone as a mason based on one particular mason is about as simpleminded as saying every Christian must be a serial killer because BTK claimed to be Christian.

Thank you. That has been my argument against anti-Masons for a while now. Some of the things that anti-Masons claim about Masonry can be claimed about any group if you use their "logic."

We have a few fundies at work. I wrote one up for spaming me with anti Masonic email ( I am the IT Director). One of them then put a Jack Chick comic book in my mailbox. I got revenge by putting AASR petitions in their mailboxes ! Now they are mad because I blocked all of their favorite Christian websites and forward all requests for www.freemasonrywatch.com to www.masonicinfo.com.

Smile and wave brother...smile and wave

LMAO

Thats hilarious, guess they learned the hard way that it is a bad idea in any company to harass the the tech guy.

The best is that of the guys who have such a mock concern for my soul, one went through a painful divorce for cheating on his wife (thou shalt not commit adultry) and one of them in his own words "frequently loses the battles with alcohol and marijuana that satan tempts him with", I reminded him that his bible says that the lord hates a drunkard.

What fascinates me is the fact that these people that are passing so much judgment on me have a rudimentary knowledge of the bible at best, and have their lives in far worse order than I do ethically and morally. I am not saying that by Christian theology one has to be a saint to be saved, quite the contraray everyone is a sinner, albeit a forgiven one,it just bothers me that people want to point out my "supposed" flaws without addressing their own very real flaws.

I also ask them if their Bibles are missing the pages that say judge not lest ye be judged, and do not point out the speck in your neighbors eye while you have a plank in your own, that usually shuts them up pretty good, but I am seriously considering going to HR over them, I hate doing something like that because I don't view snitches and tattletales in very high regard but I do feel that I have the right to go to work without being harassed over this garbage day in and day out it happens at least 3-4 times a week.I have tried being polite and saying look we obviously have differing viewpoints concerning the matter, and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree concerning this matter, and it may be better if we don't speak of it again, as neither party is going to change the other's mind,but that just isn't good enough for them.

Dont feel bad about it. If you were harrasing them about their religion they would have you strung up in a heartbeat. You have tried to be Christian with them and they will have none of it. " What you sow, also shall you reap"


[edit on 12-5-2007 by RWPBR]

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Jesus Christ, you people are hopeless.

Nice.

Look, there is some corruption among Masonry, you can't deny it. Although it is probably all or mostly in the irregular lodges (P2 scandal, etc.), some of the wrong crowd have wrapped themselves up in Masonry.

But that's where you're getting mixed up. Irregular masonry by definition isn't masonry. Otherwise any Tom Dick or Harry could set themselves up as masons, start causing trouble and hey presto all freemasons are tainted. You can't blame regular masonry for what goes on outside of its control.

Interesting thread, even if it is a bit...what's the word?...
...
...
...
...skewed.

By virtue of the nature of this thread, it would appear that the OP has already made a decision about their view of what Masonry is.

Masonry (at least here in the States) is not as organized as many people fantasize.
We don't sit around in massive auditoriums, rubbing our hands in a sinister fashion, croaking and snickering about how we rule the world and trying to figure out new ways to make the populace fear and hate us.

How would one "infiltrate" Masonry anyway?

And just so you know, anyone considered "irregular", as you put it, would not be considered a true Mason (just as TrinityMan said) and would not be subject to the goings on of a lodge meeting.

P2 was a group of guys meeting clandestinely in a NON-RECOGNIZED (meaning, they had nothing to do with actual Masonry and were not endorsed or supported by their Grand Lodge) lodge.

So, it's unfair to associate your examples with the whole of what Masonry is all about.
And, at this point, I'm not speaking as a Mason, I'm speaking as an educated individual.



[edit on 5/13/2007 by wu kung]