Naval hull designation's, what exactly does 'FFG' mean?

Ok, this ones for all you naval geek's with to much time on your hands. For years now I have been puzzled by the EXACT meaning of the naval hull designations that are in use. As I understand it the modern system is based on that used by the US Navy. Some of these designations are self evident, for example CVN literally means Carrier Vessel Nuclear, or LHD Landing Helicopter Dock. However many of the other hull designators do not follow the same letter code principle for example FFG, YES I know it stands for Frigate Guided, but what is the extra "F" for? The same thing happens with BB(battleship), DDG(Destroyer, Guided), SSBN(Submarine, Ballistic, Nuclear) and SSK, SSN, FFH and so on. I have tried to find the answer but haven't been succesfull. Even the US Navy ship and service craft classifications list doesn't provide any clues for those extra "F's" and "S's". So does any clever individual here know the answer?

LEE.

FFG means Fast FriGate. It is smaller than a Destroyer and is usually an anti-submarine vessel.

Not sure about the "F" but the double "S" is "Ship, Submersible"

FFG means Fast FriGate. It is smaller than a Destroyer and is usually an anti-submarine vessel.

Buy this I assume what you are saying is, Fast Frigate Guided?

That would be fine BUT for two points.

One, it still doesn't explain BB, DDG or a lot of the others.

Two, an FFG-7 Perry class is a low end patrol frigate with only a fairly basic ASW suite. It was designed as a cheap "all rounder" vessel envisaging cold war trans Atlantic convoy escort work, therefore it had a bit of everything. Unfortunately it was more geared towards guided missile work and really only had a set of triple torpedo tubes port and starbord for self defence against subs and a cheaper ASW sonar than the high end Spruance and Ticonderoga's which made them better for ASW work.

Still interesting point you have raised.

timeless test, yes I too have considered Ship Submersible.

Perhaps somebody out there has an official list explaining all of them?

LEE.

FFG stands for "Guided Missile Frigate"

The extra "F" is added to denote a combatant added to service after the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922. Prior to this treaty, all naval combatants had single letter hull designations.

That's why destroyers are "DD", battleships are "BB", etc.

P

Thats probably the best explanation yet Pyros. However its puzzling that some designations still only contain a single initial letter even though the ship and its designation are post Washington treaty, as in CVN, LHD or CG. Maybe it was a case of some codes "falling through the cracks", or the old Washington treaty standards have been disregarded but nobody wants the hassle of changing codes back to single letter prefixes?

LEE.

heres some,



Warships
CVN Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier
CV Aircraft Carrier
CGN Nuclear Power Guided Missile Cruiser
CG Guided Missile Cruiser
DDG Guided Missile Destroyer
DD Destroyer
FFG Guided Missile Frigate
FF Frigate
SSBN Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarine
SSN Nuclear Powered Submarine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Combatants, Patrol Boats and Landing Craft
LCC Command Ship [Joint Command Ship]
AGF Flagship [Joint Command Ship]
LHD Amphibious Assault Ship
LHA Amphibious Assault Ship
LPH Amphibious Assault Helicopter Carrier
LKA Amphibious Cargo Ship
LPD Amphibious Transport Dock
'___' Dock Landing Ship
LST Tank Landing Ship
AOE Fast Combat Support Ship
AOR Replenishment Oiler
AE Ammunition Ship
AFS Combat Stores Ship
AO Fleet Oiler
MCS Mine Countermeasures Support Ship
MCM Mine Countermeasures Ship
MHC Coastal Minehunter
PC Coastal Patrol Craft
LCAC Air Cushion Landing Craft
LCM Mechanized Landing Craft
LCPL Large Personnel Landing Craft
LCU Utility Landing Craft
LCVP Vehicle and Personnel Landing Craft
SDV Swimmer Delivery Vehicle
SLWT Side Loading Warping Tug

link

Thanks for the list Jezza, it doesnt answer my question but thanks none the less mate. You can get a semi-official list here which contains both active and non active designations. So I guess Im still wondering why the inconsistencies?

LEE.


[edit on 13-5-2007 by thebozeian]

Part of the confusion comes from the fact that some of what we now consider seperate types of warship were, back between the World Wars, considered offshoots from other types.

Battleships were all given a "BB" type.

Cruisers came in different sizes and variations, all starting with "C":
Light cruisers (6" gun armament) were "CL"
Heavy Cruisers (8" gun armament) were "CA" (Cruiser, Armored).
Large Cruisers (Alaska Class, 12" guns) were "CB"
Battle Cruisers (Lexington Class) were "CC".
Carriers were originally typed as "Cruiser, Aviation". The logical type code (CA) was already in use for heavy cruisers, though, so the carriers bumped down one letter to "Cruiser, aViation", or "CV".
Just to make life more interesting, smaller carriers (light carriers) became "CVL", and even smaller ones (mostly used to escort convoys and ferry replacement aircraft were escort carriers, or "CVE".

Destroyers were also a source of several variations:
Destroyers (general purpose escorts) were "DD"
Destroyer Escorts (usually specialists in ASW) were "DE"

Frigates were "FF"

Submarines were "SS"

The advent of missile systems (guided and ballistic) as main armament brought in a whole new set of modified types. A ship with guided missiles as armament added a "G" to its type code (FF --> FFG, CA --> CAG or CG). A submarine with ballistic missiles was "SSB".

Nuclear power added yet another layer of confusion. As with missiles, a nuclear ship tacked an "N" onto its type, sometimes as a parenthetical (N), which led to some really odd types:

CGN (Cruiser, Guided Missile, Nuclear), DDGN (Destroyer, Guided Missile, Nuclear), SSBN (Submarine, Ballistic Missile, Nuclear), and, of course, CV(N) or CVN (Cruiser, aViation, Nuclear).

See how simple it is?

Here is a good Wiki article on the hull designations.

Might add though that the Royal Navy and other's don't really follow this US style of English language butchery to describe their ships. It seems to be a primarily US trait. The Royal navy uses Pennant Numbers

And another thing...Since when has a submarine been a ship? You yanks crack me up :d



[edit on 14/5/07 by stumason]

Since when has a submarine been a 'ship' ?

Depends on who you ask

My late Uncle Bill would tell you (loudly, as only a Bos'n's Mate could!) that the answer was "NEVER!".

On the other hand, they do get christened as a 'ship', and use the "USS" designation in their names (USS Los Angeles, among others). These days, if you tried to christen the "USB", somebody would be breaking a bottle over their laptop case!

I suppose one could argue that the "S" in USS could mean submarine...

I do believe that is the excuse the Royal Navy use, seeing as our subs are christened HMS as well as the surface fleet.

But the hull designation actually uses the word "ship":

SS meaning submersible ship

Odd..Unless a "landlubber" came up with the designations?

Originally posted by stumason
And another thing...Since when has a submarine been a ship?

You yanks crack me up :d

You laugh at that to a submariner and you might have a fight on your hands. "Ship" it is. I think the change came about in the early seventies when the larger submarines were as big as ships in terms of displacement. Now you have the Trident class, which is over 600 feet, which is a lot bigger than the majority of surface ships. (I believe the battleship class is 660 feet long). The reason they are so big is to accommodate the size of the Trident missle.

In any case, submariners consider it a matter of honor to be called a ship. And if you say "vessel" you are in big trouble. As one officer informed me when I made that mistake, at a board examination for officer candidate school, no less, "A vessel is for urination."

One of the more famous posters found around a subase (Yes, that is spelled correctly) is (and note the use of the word "ship")

"There are two kinds of ships in the world: submarines and targets."

[edit on 23-5-2007 by schuyler]

Just punting a guess why some ships like CVN and CG have only the single "C" designation and not "CC" perhaps that is because the treaty of Washington did not limit or envisage a Guided missile cruise in 1922 ?

Perhaps too the Treaty did not limit carriers which may explain Japanese carrier development before WW2 ?

The double designation therefore would logically only apply to ships listed by the treaty. It seems like USA is one of the only countries which still recognises the treaty too.

I note that New Zealand Leander class frigate was scuttled recently as a dive wreck with the designation F-69. Several western navies don't observe the Treaty designations.

Actually, neither the Washington Naval Treaty (or the Five Powers Treaty) of 1922, nor the London Naval Treaty of 1930 says anything about how the navies bound by said treaties were to designate their ships. The ship types are defined in terms of capability, gun size, and displacement, or by the designation "Capital Ships".

Text of the Washington Naval Treaty

Text of the London Naval Treaty

As you can see, the treaties did, indeed, limit aircraft carriers, both directly (limiting their tonnage), and indirectly (by limiting the total tonnage of fleets).

The Japanese carriers developed before World War II weren't any more advanced than their USN / RN counterparts. They *did* have virtues (size, particularly the Kaga and Akagi), and superior aircraft and aircrew (at least early in the war). They also had serious drawbacks (ordnance handling, and lack of hangar deck ventilation come to mind). That isn't to say that they couldn't get the job done (just ask the folks at Pearl Harbor, or the Philippines), but they weren't terribly advanced compared to their contemporaries.

I'm not entirely sure why the USN changed its type codes, but I'm fairly certain that it wasn't a result of the Washington or London treaties, since the change took place in 1920. Before 1920, Battleships were "B", Destroyers were "D", Monitors were "M" (which should tell you how long this system had been in place), and Cruisers were "ACR" (Armored CRuiser).

You'd also be safe in assuming that the Washington and London Treaties didn't envision guided-missile ships. Who could blame them? The idea of a 'guided missile" was still almost a decade away from reality when the London Treaty was ratified, and their widespread use as ships' 'main battery' weapons was a decade or two beyond that.

Yeah well Brother Stormhammer it did occur to me that Guided missiles were non entities in 1922. Safe bets are the way to go round here or you get shredded by some turkey who just happens to have a spare copy of the treaty of Washington lying around... but seriously thanks for juicing up the mystery.

This is the official US Navy answer as to why they changed from B to BB etc.

Warships in the United States Navy were first designated and numbered in system originating in 1895. Under this system, ships were designated as "Battleship X", "Cruiser X", "Destroyer X", "Torpedo Boat X" and so forth where X was the series hull number as authorized by the US Congress. These designations were usually abbreviated as "B-1", "C-1", "D-1", "TB-1," etc. This system became cumbersome by 1920, as many new ship types had been developed during World War I that needed new categories assigned, especially in the Auxiliary ship area. On 17 July 1920, the designation system was revised so that all ships were now designated with a two letter code and a hull number, with the first letter being the ship type and the second letter being the sub-type. For example, the destroyer tender USS Melville, first commissioned as "Destroyer Tender No. 2" in 1915, was now re-designated as "AD-2" with the "A" standing for Auxiliary, the "D" for Destroyer (Tender) and the "2" meaning the second ship in that series. Ship types that did not have a subclassification simply repeated the first letter. So, Battleships became "BB-X" and Destroyers became "DD-X" with X being the same number as previously assigned. Ships that changed classifications were given new hull numbers within their new designation series.

The designation "USS" standing for "United States Ship" was adopted in 1907. Prior to that time, no designation was used in official documents.

It should be noted that in the United States Navy, unlike European Navies, the first ship in a class to be authorized by the US Congress is the designated class leader (class name ship), regardless of the order in which the ships of that class are laid down, launched or commissioned. For example, contrary to many European texts, for the last class of "Standard" battleships, the battleship USS Colorado BB-45 (commissioned 30 August 1923) is the class leader under USN designation standards, not USS Maryland BB-46 (commissioned 21 July 1921). These battleships are thus properly designated as being "USS Colorado BB-45 Class" and not as "USS Maryland BB-46 Class."

www.navweaps.com...

It also has a list of every type of ship the USN has used. Pre1920 and Post 1920.

That's great thank you...

I do recall however that one of the US Nuclear subs which sank USS Thresher was the name boat for that class but the name of the class was changed to Permit Class from memory ?

Any comment about departure from the naming practice in that instance ?

When the Thresher was lost, the Permit, which was the second boat of the class, became the lead boat of the class. They were both the same class of submarine, and almost identical the only difference was the name.

[edit on 5/24/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
This is the official US Navy answer as to why they changed from B to BB etc.

At last a definitive answer!! Thanks Zaphod now it all makes sense. And given the US's preeminence in supplying vessels to navies around the world as well as their role in so many defence pacts like NATO, it's logical that others would adopt their letter code sytem. Therefore it made sense for a navy like the RAN to retire the old RN system in the 1970's and align itself with the USN codes, as the US was now both prime ally and equipment supplier. Therfore an FFG is a, 'F'rigate 'F'(no sub class) 'G'uided, simple.

LEE.