Is Jesus really God in the flesh?

if one does not share interest in Religious debates and discussions
i am sure there are many other threads that might hold ones ''interest''
I do believe the creator of this thread asked a religious question
and solicited responses from those who hold to a religious
faith

My allegiance is with my Lord, Flying Spaghetti Monster and i won't listen to you heretics.

Originally posted by helen670
Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh.


1 Timothy 3:16

God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

Regarding 1 Tim 3:16, one should consider and the way it it is rendered in the King James Version, one should consider the Alaxandrine Codex.
It dates back to the early part of the fifth century C.E. Several scribes evidently shared in writing it, and the text has been corrected throughout. It is written on vellum, two columns to each page, in uncial (capital) letters without any spaces between words. Most of Matthew is missing, as are some portions of Genesis, Psalms, John, and 2 Corinthians. Now officially designated Codex A, it consists of 773 leaves and remains an early witness of considerable importance.

The important think to know is that the Alaxdrine Codex is older and better than any of the Greek manuscripts used as the basis for the King James Version of 1611.

The King James Version here reads: “God was manifest in the flesh,” in referring to Christ Jesus. But in this ancient codex, the contraction for “God,” formed by two Greek letters “ΘC,” appears originally to have read “ΟC,” the word for “who.” Obviously, this meant that Christ Jesus was not “God.”

It took more than 200 years and the discovery of other older manuscripts to confirm the rendering “who” or “which” as being correct. Bruce M. Metzger in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament concludes: “No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports θεός [the·os′]; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς or ὅ; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός [the·os′].” Today, most translations concur in omitting any reference to “God” in this text.

In 1757 the king’s Royal Library became part of the British Library, and this fine codex is now clearly displayed in the manuscript room of the British Museum.

This Scripture in Some Modern Translations properly reads:

1 Timothy 3:16 (Contemporary English Version)

16Here is the great mystery of our religion:

Christ [a] came as a human. The Spirit proved

that he pleased God,

and he was seen by angels.

Christ was preached

to the nations.

People in this world

put their faith in him,

and he was taken up to glory.

Footnotes:

1 Timothy 3:16 Christ: The Greek text has "he," probably meaning "Christ." Some manuscripts have "God."

1 Timothy 3:16 (American Standard Version)

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Note the word "He " is used instead of God. Since it is not all in Caps it means it is not referring to God Almighty, but rather, Jesus, his son.

1 Timothy 3:16 (New Life Version)
16 It is important to know the secret of Godlike living, which is: Christ came to earth as a Man. He was pure in His Spirit. He was seen by angels. The nations heard about Him. Men everywhere put their trust in Him. He was taken up into heaven.

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Reader's Version)
16 There is no doubt that godliness is a great mystery.
Jesus appeared in a body.
The Holy Spirit proved that he was the Son of God.
He was seen by angels.
He was preached among the nations.
People in the world believed in him.
He was taken up to heaven in glory.

I hope this sheds some light on who this scripture was really referring to.

Please stick to the topic which the OP asked.

There will be no more attempts at hijacking this thread without action being taken.


[edit on 7/5/07 by masqua]

OK, to stay on-topic -- As i said before, Jesus was here in flesh but he didn't touch enough people with enough power. He can be God but humans have free will and instead of following his words they used Bible as excuse to go to war and to kill innocent people in the name of Lord. One can then ask, if Jesus was God in flesh how come we got 2000 years of conflict? But try to answer without quoting.

About FSM -- It's real, i am not making it up, check the web site. Let me quote one tiny bit:

Q: You are making God angry.

A: I doubt it. If there’s a God, and he’s intelligent, then I would guess he has a sense of humor. And how do you know He is NOT a Flying Spaghetti Monster?

For somebody that is a faithful follower an believer of the Bible as the truth and nothing else . . . yes anything in the bible will be believable if you are that type of person.

But for many others be believers of a god or not, is nothing than myth.

One thing we most remember is that the God of the bible was intended to be as humanly possible as the people that wrote the bible that is why the Jesus story came handy.

Originally posted by detonator
OK, to stay on-topic -- As i said before, Jesus was here in flesh but he didn't touch enough people with enough power. He can be God but humans have free will and instead of following his words they used Bible as excuse to go to war and to kill innocent people in the name of Lord. One can then ask, if Jesus was God in flesh how come we got 2000 years of conflict? But try to answer without quoting.

About FSM -- It's real, i am not making it up, check the web site. Let me quote one tiny bit:

Q: You are making God angry.

A: I doubt it. If there’s a God, and he’s intelligent, then I would guess he has a sense of humor. And how do you know He is NOT a Flying Spaghetti Monster?

he touched enough
2000 years later and a whole lot of folks believe in him
conflict is mans fault and quite correct, many have wrongly been killed
by those who claim to be Christian but are not
scripture warns us of this
no where in the new testament are we commanded to violence

God says he is spirit not spaghetti

Originally posted by marg6043
For somebody that is a faithful follower an believer of the Bible as the truth and nothing else . . . yes anything in the bible will be believable if you are that type of person.

But for many others be believers of a god or not, is nothing than myth.

One thing we most remember is that the God of the bible was intended to be as humanly possible as the people that wrote the bible that is why the Jesus story came handy.

i fail to see why those who do not believe in God would enter this discussion

those who believe in God got that idea from God, but belief is not salvation
the devil believes in God

Originally posted by tom_roberts

i fail to see why those who do not believe in God would enter this discussion

Very simple this is been posted in ATS and not BTS, if you have a problem with that make a complain, mean while it will be taken with a conspiracy angle.

"Father why have you forsaken me ?"

I do not think the man was talking to himself, therefore I think that he must have been talking to some other entity.

I often challenge Mormons and Jehovas witnesses that knock on my door to show me where in the Bible Jesus says that he is the son of god or god in the flesh. They never can produce the goods. They can show me where others (including the authors of the gospels) say that he is the son of god or god incarnate but never where Jesus himself is quoted as saying it. Jesus always claimed to be the son of man, and in fact when questioned about the miracles that he performed he said "you too can do these things and more". It seems that he regarded himself as the same as other every other man with just a little more knowledge than most. The claim that we can all carry out miracles and heal people just like him proves this.
The son of man: a normal every day human being that was enlightened and passed his knowledge on to others. It was those people that did not (and still to this day do not) understand fully what he was saying that made up stories of his divinity.
Yes the man had a lot of knowledge. Yes he perhaps had a direct telephone line between himself and the great power that holds this universe together (name it what you choose) but No he was not god in the flesh.

I agree Jesus never claimed that he was God’s only son others made that claim and put it into words while writing the bible, this will bring the issue of God gender for once.

We have a Genesis that tells you that God created men and women in his own image so he most has been both in a spiritual way.

Bringing the identity of Jesus, as been a human male very questionable when claimed to be the only son of God.

The term of God begotten son can is found exclusive in the Gospels of John .

The term “begotten” was first used after been translated from the Greek word “monogenes” and is hardly a word that can be used as fact.

Many scholars believe that after the translation to English the word was used improperly .

See, Monogenes is a composed word in Greek, mono means singular and genors means kind , When the two words are united actually means one of a kind .

Hardly any divinity at all.

Now genos is also distantly related to the verb gennan that also means to beget . The mistranslations of the word ”monogenes” comes as bible uses ”only begotten’ , when it should be ”Unique son” .

This comes from the intention of the translators of the Gospels to suit their needs of an immortal Son of a God.

The Bible has been translated into many languages from the biblical languages of Hebrew and Greek. The very first translation of the Hebrew Bible was into Greek, the Septuagint (LXX), which later became the received text of the Old Testament in the church and the basis of its canon. The Latin Vulgate by Jerome was based upon the Hebrew for those books of the Bible preserved in the Jewish canon (as reflected in the masoretic text), and on the Greek text for the rest.
en.wikipedia.org...

Jerome, in the Latin Vulgate translated ”monogenes” as ”only begotten” , in answer to the Arian doctrine which was taught that Jesus was not begotten but made .

“Arian Catholicism,” which is the ecumenical ideology and theology of the early Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, upholding the doctrine and teaching of Jesus Christ and his apostles through the early Church and following the guidance of St Arius of Alexandria, teaching that Jesus was a man to be followed not worshipped

www.arian-catholic.org...

Lets remember that the bible as we know it today was translated from the Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek and into what we know today, during that long a painful journey many words, books and meanings has been misplaced, mistranslated and misused to suit the translators.





[edit on 7-5-2007 by marg6043]

Tom Roberts, I'm not refutting the bible text with the Aquarian Gospel, but the Aquarian resembles the texts of the Apocryphal Gospels, which I believe more, because the Carbon Dating of the texts can be dated to around the time Christ was walking.

Matthews, Mark, Luke and John were written 60 - 120 years after his death, meaning they shared the tales of the Gnostic texts and passed it down verbally. Its all the same story through different points of view. They did not walk with Jesus, so I can't take their story as genuine as the Gnostics.

The editing of King James the I from Martin Luther speaks for itself. Just Look at how they lived their lives, they werent saints and women had no rights then. Thats why they edited down, and today the KJV reads that women shouldnt preach. However, Jesus taught that when you know God the One, you need no preacher. And Mary of Magdala was his most faithful disciple.

Avriel: "Eli! Eli! Lama Sabachtani!" were the words spoken by David in the Book of Psalms. Jesus in a cry of Faith shouted the words of David on the cross. -Psalms 22: 1-2

I am a firm believer in the Christ. But the KJV shows favortism and racism (especially towards the Jews, which Christ himself was) so I have to believe that it was edited by closed minded men.

Gnostics, Gnostic Gospels, & Gnosticism
A one-sentence description of Gnosticism: a religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the god of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body, a religion that preaches a hidden wisdom or knowledge only to a select group as necessary for salvation or escape from this world.

The term "gnostic" derives from "gnosis," which means "knowledge" in Greek. The Gnostics believed that they were privy to a secret knowledge about the divine, hence the name. (Huxley coined "agnosticism" on the basis that all knowledge must be based on reason. We cannot rationally claim to have access to knowledge that is beyond the powers of the intellect.)

[Again this is not Christian doctrine so i can not comment on it other than to say it is not Christian]


''The editing of King James the I from Martin Luther speaks for itself. Just Look at how they lived their lives, they werent saints and women had no rights then. Thats why they edited down, and today the KJV reads that women shouldnt preach. However, Jesus taught that when you know God the One, you need no preacher. And Mary of Magdala was his most faithful disciple.

[this is your opinion of course?]

Avriel: "Eli! Eli! Lama Sabachtani!" were the words spoken by David in the Book of Psalms. Jesus in a cry of Faith shouted the words of David on the cross. -Psalms 22: 1-2

I am a firm believer in the Christ. But the KJV shows favortism and racism (especially towards the Jews, which Christ himself was) so I have to believe that it was edited by closed minded men.

[where?]


[edit on 7-5-2007 by tom_roberts]

[edit on 7-5-2007 by tom_roberts]

[edit on 7-5-2007 by tom_roberts]
(edit to add external text markup)

[edit on 14-5-2007 by Byrd]

Originally posted by followerofchristJesus says i and the father are one now what does that mean? i think it means what it says and says what it means

He also says, that we are in him and he and us.
And that he is the head and we are the body (no its not referring to the govermental structure of the church as some believe.)

There are answers to this...seek and you will find - when you seek with all your heart.
This implies seeking without fears and beyond boundries...with ones heart.

You have the permission, now go find the answer.

peace

dAlen

Originally posted by avriel
I often challenge Mormons and Jehovas witnesses that knock on my door to show me where in the Bible Jesus says that he is the son of god or god in the flesh.

Been there, done that...used to challenge to.
I was missionary of missionaries, lol
(seriously, I was a missionary)

But you know, when you challenge, make sure you challenge yourself first.
That will keep us and the whole world quiet - and we will live in harmony.

I wrote something along these lines in my ATS blog and my Word Press blog called the "Negation of Ego"

peace

dAlen

[edit on 7-5-2007 by dAlen]

Originally posted by tom_roberts
i fail to see why those who do not believe in God would enter this discussion

those who believe in God got that idea from God, but belief is not salvation
the devil believes in God

Actually - "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Now let the debate begin, what number you calling. ;-)

And predestination, whoa...
"Who can argue against God if he chose some for noble purposes and others for the fire of hell"

Peace

dAlen



[edit on 7-5-2007 by dAlen]

Originally posted by tom_robertsI do believe the creator of this thread asked a religious question
and solicited responses from those who hold to a religious
faith

It seemed open ended to me.

Not sure what good it is asking a question for those who will answer you the way you want to hear? This would build up ones own sense of security in their current beliefs - which is fine, but does it help to get a true perspective on the question at hand if you automatically limit yourself to a set response?

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 7-5-2007 by dAlen]

Originally posted by tom_roberts
yes he is and he proved it

he raised himself from the dead
and will return --soon i hope

The whole rapture thing is quite interesting if you read revelations for yourself.
What is interesting, and a conspiracy indeed, is that there are hard set 'facts' (so to speak) by the church on the subject of the rapture...interestingly enough there are 3 main views on it...but if you look more deeply you would be hard pressed to even find it.

Seemed to recall watching a national geographic program (in Hungarian) about this.
Some guy that was a criminal, supposedly was the one who started pushing the doctrine of the rapture bit.

Now I know the bit in Mathew, etc. - but theres is not enough time or space to get into all that now.

Suffice it to say, in regards to your other comment...is their proof for his death and resurrection? What of other text not cannonized (and we can dance around this story to)

What gets me is the saying on the Bible box that Im looking at now.
"Literal, word-for-word translation"

Hate to break it to my American friends who speak one language.
Aint possible. The longer I have been immersed in the Hungarian culture, the more I realize (what Bible translators know), and that is word for word translations do not work...period. I repeat, cannot be done.

In fact, even if you could do word for word, the whole context changes, and loses so much. Watch a movie from America, and see it in another language.
It is interesting how they translate it. When you see the translation it sometimes is not even close at all...and thats because some expressions dont carry over well in that culture base on the milieu there.

I know this will be hard to grasp, but trust me...I have lived in a city where my family and I are the only native English speakers - for 2 years now - This word for word translation is here to keep people saying that God wrote every version of the Bible and that its without error. When you start to realize what Im saying, more questions pop up.

This can be on the edge of many peoples comfort zone.

Peace

dAlen

yeah i know what he means when he says that Jesus is the head and we are the body the body is us we all have our gifts and when we come to gether we all represent Jesus because we all are a part of the body like a foot or toe or hand etc...especially in our homes we are to have God and Jesus before anyone elseand when that happens we love our wives or husbands more than we could have before. the translation may be different but the message will always stay the same Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. and if we follow that it becomes a respect and obediant issue you will follow everthing else out of obedience and respect as you would for your earthly father. mormons and jehovah witnesses have tried to tell me that Jesus was not God that we was a seperate entity all together. this coming from the same mormons who believe john smith was a prophet who seen God when in fact he seen the devil (lucifer) if you do go to church i think you should not be comfortable because if you are going to be set apart from the world and do what God has called you to do then i dont think he is going to call you to do something you are comfortable in he is going to call you to do something that glorifies his name

Originally posted by avriel
I often challenge Mormons and Jehovas witnesses that knock on my door to show me where in the Bible Jesus says that he is the son of god or god in the flesh. They never can produce the goods.

They don't care about the goods they are selling. If they did, for one, they wouldn't be selling what they are selling.

Revelation 2:18
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.