You might as well say humans are not sentient too then.

Let's see we have language, make tools, and oh we have religion! yes that's it! man tends to believe in old fairytales with no evidence.

Originally posted by DarkSide
You might as well say humans are not sentient too then.

Let's see we have language, make tools, and oh we have religion! yes that's it! man tends to believe in old fairytales with no evidence.

Sometimes I honestly wonder if we are. According to some researchers all of the things the other species do dont prove their sentient. I'm just repeating their assertions.

A number of species show the ability to make tools and use language. Yet they dont fantasize as far as I know. Religion, fantasy, myth, and legends are very unique to humanity. Its that same abstract thought that I think will separate us from intelligent machines that eventually will emerge one day.

Maybe I should of said Imagination instead of Religion.

[edit on 6/5/07 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by DarkSide
You might as well say humans are not sentient too then.

Let's see we have language, make tools, and oh we have religion! yes that's it! man tends to believe in old fairytales with no evidence.

Sometimes I honestly wonder if we are. According to some researchers all of the things the other species do dont prove their sentient. I'm just repeating their assertions.

A number of species show the ability to make tools and use language. Yet they dont fantasize as far as I know. Religion, fantasy, myth, and legends are very unique to humanity. Its that same abstract thought that I think will separate us from intelligent machines that eventually will emerge one day.

Maybe I should of said Imagination instead of Religion.

[edit on 6/5/07 by MikeboydUS]

However, many domesticated animals such as dogs have been known to dream. There is a large amount of evidence to back this up, and any long term dog owner will be able to attest to this. Dreaming requires an amount of imagination.

Originally posted by Vilkata
However, many domesticated animals such as dogs have been known to dream. There is a large amount of evidence to back this up, and any long term dog owner will be able to attest to this. Dreaming requires an amount of imagination.

i was always under the impression that dreaming requires the ability to interpret sensory information. how does it require imagination?

In my opinion human consciousness is different from animal consciousness. The capacity for language is also different. Looking at the link for the aquatic ape hypothesis, religions might not be the only people accused of following fairy tales.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by Vilkata
However, many domesticated animals such as dogs have been known to dream. There is a large amount of evidence to back this up, and any long term dog owner will be able to attest to this. Dreaming requires an amount of imagination.

i was always under the impression that dreaming requires the ability to interpret sensory information. how does it require imagination?

I think it would depend on what they are dreaming about. If they are dreaming about the everyday world, as opposed to a dream like the one I had another night involving me in the Colonial Marines from the film Aliens, it may not take any imagination.

If you're going to use the aquatic ape theory to classify evolutionary biology, then you are way off, and obviously don't understand the nature of evolutionary biology. The aquatic ape theory is just one possibility, and maybe an improbability but the nature of evolutionary biology is sound. More sound than just throwing your hand in the air, giving up and saying "I don't know, musta been God or something."

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I think it would depend on what they are dreaming about. If they are dreaming about the everyday world, as opposed to a dream like the one I had another night involving me in the Colonial Marines from the film Aliens, it may not take any imagination.

That also could be interpreted as just processing sensory input. You've obviously seen the film. Had the dream been about something you've never seen before, then I'd give you that.

To me, sentience is self-awareness. End of. Anything else is bells and whistles.

I think, rather than trying to quantify something as broad as sentience, one should look at degrees of sentience and also the ability of the animal to act upon it. Some birds show intelligence, problem solving skills, planning and tool use, but they are restricted in what they can do because of their physiology.

Same with Dolphins and Whales. If you took a dolphin and gave it hands and arms, I guarantee you it will be able to do so much more than what it can do with flippers and living under ocean.

One of the key pre-requisites for civilisation is fire. Kind of hard to start a fire if you live in the sea, but thats not to say a Dolphin lacks the intelligence to do so if given the chance.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I think it would depend on what they are dreaming about. If they are dreaming about the everyday world, as opposed to a dream like the one I had another night involving me in the Colonial Marines from the film Aliens, it may not take any imagination.

That also could be interpreted as just processing sensory input. You've obviously seen the film. Had the dream been about something you've never seen before, then I'd give you that.

To me, sentience is self-awareness. End of. Anything else is bells and whistles.

I think, rather than trying to quantify something as broad as sentience, one should look at degrees of sentience and also the ability of the animal to act upon it. Some birds show intelligence, problem solving skills, planning and tool use, but they are restricted in what they can do because of their physiology.

Same with Dolphins and Whales. If you took a dolphin and gave it hands and arms, I guarantee you it will be able to do so much more than what it can do with flippers and living under ocean.

One of the key pre-requisites for civilisation is fire. Kind of hard to start a fire if you live in the sea, but thats not to say a Dolphin lacks the intelligence to do so if given the chance.

If you see above Kanzi the Bonobo used matches to light a fire and roasted marshamallows. To me that is a huge leap. I agree with the physiology problem, as Kanzi can understand 5000 spoken words, but cant speak himself. I believe he would most likely talk if he was physically able.

I have had plenty of dreams about things I have never seen before. I was just using a recent one as an analogy.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
If you see above Kanzi the Bonobo used matches to light a fire and roasted marshamallows. To me that is a huge leap. I agree with the physiology problem, as Kanzi can understand 5000 spoken words, but cant speak himself. I believe he would most likely talk if he was physically able.

I have had plenty of dreams about things I have never seen before. I was just using a recent one as an analogy.

Indeed, I am pretty sure you have an imagination! At least, I hope you do

I was just trying to illustrate that dreams are not quite so clear cut. Imagination must play a part, but it is also the result of sensory input you've had also.

There are many Apes around the world who can use sign language, or those talking board things that kids use, to communicate.

There was one Gorilla who could actually teach other Gorilla's how to communicate too. I believe that after a while, the scientists noticed slight changes in the way the words were used, so it is like they had their own accent/dialect developing.

Point being, that just because an animal appears to be unable to do something, does not mean it is not intelligent/sentient (I know you agree with this, I was saying it for the benefit of other posters).

They could be held back because of physiological or environmental issues, like the Dolphins. As intelligent or even more so than Apes, but lumbered with a body and environment that seriously hampers any development into any sort of civilisation.

They have well developed social groups, which is a good precursor to a more advanced society, but without fire, they are restricted. However, it could be argued that dolphins practice a simple form of agriculture with their methods of collecting food. For example, they work together to herd smaller fish and kill them on mass. There is also something sticking in my mind about them and seaweed, but I'll have too look that up......

Same with Apes. Chimps in the wild have been observed using tools and not just sticks. They have been seen using specific tools for specific jobs, indicating a high degree of forward planning and intelligence.





[edit on 6/5/07 by stumason]

I own a quite old Maltese Terrier.
It's interesting watching him, trying to figure out what the little guy is thinking.
The poor guy is 14 years old, getting near the end of his time, and sadly he has occasional fainting attacks. A stab of pain, he faints, and then after a minute or two slowly recovers. (Yes, he's been to Vets. Not much that can be done)

Anyway, after he's recovered, he's back to normal, jumping around, begging for a walk. It's as if nothing happened. He's completely forgotten this life threatening event that occurred moments ago.

He lives completely in the Moment. This is how I feel NOW, this is what I want NOW. If there is pain, if my legs are weak, then that's just how it is.
It's an almost enviable point of view.

But there are thoughts going on in his head. Simple, straightforward, immediate ones, but they are there.

Originally posted by melatonin

"Creationist in Quote-mine Shocker!"

That's a nice dream, keep deceiving yourself.


[edit on 6-5-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
That's a nice dream, keep deceiving yourself.

Did you bother reading what Darwin wrote following your out-of-context quote?

What you did is present a blatent quote-mine. An common act of creationist intellectual dishonesty.

Originally posted by melatonin
Did you bother reading what Darwin wrote following your out-of-context quote?

What you did is present a blatent quote-mine. An common act of creationist intellectual dishonesty.

It doesn't matter, but what really matters is that you know your purpose before you pass into the next life, and I pray earnestly that you will find it.

[edit on 6-5-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
It doesn't matter, but what really matters is that you know your purpose before you pass into the next life, and I pray earnestly that you will find it.

Errrrm, yeah, OK.

heh.

I'm dead serious, I know a lot of atheists out there are looking for a true purpose to life, and I pray they find it.

Let me ask you this Mel, what does the theory of evolution or the big bang do for my life?

How does it help enrich my day to day life?

Really, I could care less if the earth revolves around the sun or vice-versa.

Knowing that does not help me in my everyday life.

Most people out there are just struggling to survive, they could care less if the earth revolves around the sun.

Case in point, your "scientific theories" of life's origins are pointless and are not needed.



[edit on 6-5-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
I'm dead serious, I know a lot of atheists out there are looking for a true purpose to life, and I pray they find it.

Let me ask you this Mel, what does the theory of evolution or the big bang do for my life?

How does it help enrich my day to day life?

Really, I could care less if the earth revolves around the sun or vice-versa.

Knowing that does not help me in my everyday life.

Most people out there are just struggling to survive, they could care less if the earth revolves around the sun.

Case in point, your "scientific theories" of life's origins are pointless and are not needed.



[edit on 6-5-2007 by thehumbleone]

Wow, I suppose God must have directed me to this thread. I just posted a reply in another thread that fits nicely as a response to your diatribe too! Wow!

Quote:

Truth is a strange thing.

Whether the truth itself is unpalatable, strange, confusing or seemingly pointless is inconsequential. The truth is the truth. That one person, or even everyone can't understand it at one given point in time doesn't mean it is pointless, futile, or worth ignoring. Truth is timeless. What is baffling today is understood tomorrow. Ignorance is eternal.

Whatever the truth is in relation to anything, it will still be the truth whether it affirms or destroys pre conceived concepts. The truth doesn't care about beliefs or feelings.

It laughs its behind off at ego though, that much is assured.

[edit on 6-5-2007 by kegs]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
I'm dead serious, I know a lot of atheists out there are looking for a true purpose to life, and I pray they find it.

Let me ask you this Mel, what does the theory of evolution or the big bang do for my life?

How does it help enrich my day to day life?

Really, I could care less if the earth revolves around the sun or vice-versa.

Knowing that does not help me in my everyday life.

Most people out there are just struggling to survive, they could care less if the earth revolves around the sun.

Case in point, your "scientific theories" of life's origins are pointless and are not needed

So, would I be correct in assuming from that "post" that you have no time for science?

You are also happy to go through blissfully ignorant of ANYTHING around you, just because you believe in some millenia old Goat Herders story book?

That is depressing, to say the least...

Evolution or not, it is a huge coincidence that chimps and humans have similar features, such as eyes, ears, nose, vocal chords, fingers, toes, hair, sweat, etc. No one can knwo the truth, it is in the past and has vanished becoming dust that the earth has inherited. Face the fact when everday another human is born the same way another chimp is born.