Bush scolds China, Russia, others on press freedoms

Bush Bush Bush Bush Bush. Let's talk about the rest of the world, and see how the US stacks up against them, why don't we? Then we can truly see how terrible Bush really is.

Have it your own way, but know that those statements are only related to political games and not about freedom, if they were really caring the curent US administration would set an example at home in it's back yard before talking out to others.
Torture, intimidating jurnalists and reporters, kidnaping people off the street, phone taping like the secret comunist police would do,vetoing the will of the people because the house of representatives is the will of the people, and then he go's on a freedom tour talking about what other countrys should do because he comes from the land of the free home of the brave and he will show every one how things should be done, and they better do it too, because he is Bush.....that is George Bush You know I would not mind if a country like Canada would come and say it or a country like Holand where freedoms are truly there.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Have it your own way, but know that those statements are only related to political games and not about freedom, if they were really caring the curent US administration would set an example at home in it's back yard before talking out to others.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

Seriously, don't you get tired of constantly bashing Bush and the US?

It doesn't matter what the thread is about, some will immediately jump on Bush and/or the US. Even if the US is not involved in the thread.

For example, Chavez could make a comment about Blair, and Bush would immediately be dragged into the conversation.

Don't you get tired of sounding like a broken record?

In this example, you refuse to discuss the poor human rights records of the countries listed. Instead, you choose to bash Bush.

Why are you afraid to judge other countries? It seems that you will do anything to avoid offending another country, if you can deflect the blame off onto the US.

No other country can do any wrong. If they do, it's the fault of the US, right?

Riiight...

And no country is blameless, not even Canada or Holland.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

Seriously, don't you get tired of constantly bashing Bush and the US?

And the US? where did you see me bash the United States? or is bush and the curent administration United States? in fact I like a lots of things about United States, me bashing Bush has nothing to do with United States, in fact most people in the US do not like Bush, one image of one man is the whole country? it's people like you that take down your country's name.
For you of course the curent US administration is United States.

It doesn't matter what the thread is about, some will immediately jump on Bush and/or the US. Even if the US is not involved in the thread.

Here you are correct in your statement, bush"or"united states, why would I bash a country that I grew up in, even if I don't live there any more, and even if I was not boren there.

Don't you get tired of sounding like a broken record?

Is that all you have to bring forward

In this example, you refuse to discuss the poor human rights records of the countries listed. Instead, you choose to bash Bush.

No , I don't refuse to discuss on the issue, it's just that Bush made the statement and he is in no position to talk about it, if it were the congres or any one else from united states that is equal to his words it would of been okay.

Why are you afraid to judge other countries? It seems that you will do anything to avoid offending another country, if you can deflect the blame off onto the US.

Where did I do that, I just stated that the man who made the statement is in no position of making it in the first place.

No other country can do any wrong. If they do, it's the fault of the US, right?

Now you sound like a broken record.

Riiight...

Right...

This is the problem, when bashing one man or the us administration for some it is reflected as bashing United States, this is a big error, because people are not really bashing a whole country, usualy just one man, and of course we are bashing bush, because he is tiranical , corupt, and a freedom eater, he eats people's freedoms for breakfast, and unlike you most people from your country would like to see him gone, just like the rest of the world, because this is affecting us too ...you know.
The decisions he makes affectsthe rest of the world.


[edit on 7-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Just because you don't like a particular person doesn't mean that that person cannot possibly speak the truth. That's kind of silly, if you ask me. To discount everything a person says because you are so blinded by hatred for him is irrational.

And you say that if some other member of Congress said it you would agree with them. Somehow I doubt it; I think you'd revert back to the US bashing again.

What Bush pointed out about those countries is absolutely true. Your hatred for him cannot change that fact. It cannot change the fact that the US is head and shoulders above the rest of the world when it comes to human rights, either.

You don't have to like Bush to acknowldge that what he said is true. You don't have to like him to discuss the human rights violations of other countries.

Just because you don't like a particular person doesn't mean that that person cannot possibly speak the truth.

From my perspective he s not, and it's my opinion that the man is a profesional liar.

And you say that if some other member of Congress said it you would agree with them. Somehow I doubt it; I think you'd revert back to the US bashing again.

It's not the first time I agreed with something comming out of United States, and again you are concentrating on the fact that I some how am bashing the US, I don't know where you get that from, since I'm not.

What Bush pointed out about those countries is absolutely true. Your hatred for him cannot change that fact. It cannot change the fact

I'm not saying it is not true, I'm just saying:
1 He is not the one who should say it
2 He is doing it for a political agenda.

the US is head and shoulders above the rest of the world when it comes to human rights, either.

Well that is your opinion.
My opinion is that United States was the shining star of humman rights but that it has lost that position due to the curent US administration, I have the opinion that Canada your next dor neibhor is above United States when it comes to human rights, also most of europe too, im not trying to discredit united states but the truth is the truth so why not say it if it's the truth.
Who taps phones?
Who puts people on death row? and seeks revenge out of the plesure of killing people, there are only a few countrys that do that.
Who holds people with out any charges? some of them bad but some of them good people released after years of staying in prisson with out any charges later to be found inocent, years and years of detention.
Reporters and jurnalists intimidated, followed, and threaten.
People kidnaped off the streets and not only in united states all around the world by your goverment, like that german guy, kidnaped, tortured and then relised when found inocent.
I fail to see where human rights go there.
I can go all day long but what is the point.
I'm not even blaming united states for this, just a few people from there that run your country.
But you can't be honest about it, you have too much pride in you, pride is good only to a point, after that it's called stupidity.

You don't have to like Bush to acknowldge that what he said is true. You don't have to like him to discuss the human rights violations of other countries.

Yes , but I'm not going to say, "what a man, that man shines for hope and prosperity, bush is a beacon for freedom", while he did say what he said and it was true it's because they said about his administration stuff and he said stuff back, they are just accusing each other, they don't really care for the cause, they are just scraching each other like wild cats.

Back in history if you look at it when china was invading tibet and killing of monks the US goverment nominated china as country of prosperity and freedom, and that is not long ago when bush senior was in office, back then they had intrests.
Also if we look around 20 years back the US goverment also sold chemical weapons to iraq,to saddam, so you see where are human rights and morality here?
Where is the shining beacon?





[edit on 7-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
This is the problem, when bashing one man or the us administration for some it is reflected as bashing United States, this is a big error, because people are not really bashing a whole country, usualy just one man, and of course we are bashing bush, because he is tiranical

, corupt, and a freedom eater, he eats people's freedoms for breakfast, and unlike you most people from your country would like to see him gone, just like the rest of the world, because this is affecting us too ...you know.
The decisions he makes affectsthe rest of the world.

President Bush tyrannical?...

First of all, you are assuming most people in the U.S. think like you, key word "assuming".

I find it extremely strange and funny that some people around here always claim most people in the U.S. are against the present administration, and as proof they present a poll which was made asking 1,000 people.... or they point to the amount of people that appear in demonstrations, for example against the war in Iraq. But the truth is, the number of people who appear in these demonstrations is very small compared to the number of Americans and legal citizens.

If the "illegal immigrants", who number at no more than 10 - 12 million in total living in the U.S. can summon 400,000 to 700,000 people to protest for Illegal immigrants rights in one state, yet the left can only summon at the most 300,000-400,000, this is showing that the amount of dissent among Americans is not that high.

On the contrary, if you show to these same people who claim most of the U.S. is against the current administration, or the war, if you present to them the number of Venezuelans who first of all, most of whom do not have the same mode of transportation as people in the U.S., yet they can summon almost a million Venezuelans to demonstrate against Chavez, and even after having shown that Chavez gave the go ahead to the Avila plan, which is a plan which has been implemented in Venezuela in the past and it mobilizes the military and use force against civilians, and we can even see in videos that hundreds of Venezuelans who were protesting against Chavez were shot dead, and injured....the same people say there is nothing wrong going on in Venezuela, where the total population is 25 million people in the whole country...

But i ask...where are the protests around the world as to what has been happening in Venezuela?...

Where were the protests when 500,000 children under the age of 5 died in Iraq because of the sanctions?...the same sanctions which China, Russia, Germany, and France among other nations wanted to keep in Iraq?...and that's without counting the adults who have died because of Saddam's regime... Yet where were the protesters?...

BTW, my guess is that pepsi78 has no idea of the riots they have been having in Europe as immigrants have been resorting to violence in several European countries because they say the socialist systems of Europe are oppresing them...

[edit on 7-5-2007 by Muaddib]

I find it extremely strange and funny that some people around here always claim most people in the U.S. are against the present administration, and as proof they present a poll which was made asking 1,000 people.... or they point to the amount of people that appear in demonstrations, for example against the war in Iraq. But the truth is, the number of people who appear in these demonstrations is very small compared to the number of Americans and legal citizens.

There were numeros polls done, cnn, abc, even international polls, bush aproval rate is under 40% not even 40%
Not every one that is against the sistem will demonstrate, most people will post on the internet or talk with friends about it.
People don't like mister bush not just in united states, but all over the world, in some parts of the world they will link bush with united states, with the whole country and burn american flags, but who is smart wont bash a whole country for 1 single person, I support the bush bashing not bashing the United States.

But i ask...where are the protests around the world as to what has been happening in Venezuela?...

Venesuela does not have power to influence the world, it's a small state just like cuba, if they were affecting the world be sure that people would wonder, venesuela does not pretend do be the beacon of light because it's not.
Chaves is more of a dictator but not that opresive like sadam, meaning he does not go around starting wars and killing people, but one thing I see he does not go preaching about freedom and how great his country is in freedom and how every one should follow and take an example on how his country is, china does not do that either,not even russia does that any more, they just mind their own bussines, but I know some one who does
and he is the shining beacon of light you see what I mean? after making a mess in the back yard he puts on a nice white dress and go's preaching to others.

Where were the protests when 500,000 children under the age of 5 died in Iraq because of the sanctions?...the same sanctions which China, Russia, Germany, and France among other nations wanted to keep in Iraq?...and that's without counting the adults who have died because of Saddam's regime... Yet where were the protesters?...

Who came up with the idea in the first place of sanctions.
Sadam was an evil man, and evil people go hand in hand, who sold iraq chemical weapons?
People voted because united states wanted them to, every one does what the US administration wants at the United Nations or they get a big veto.
Most of the things that were passed were initiated by the US goverment on to the security council and what did not pass was tryed again and again and again until it did, just like iran, people didint vote from the first time for sanctions but the US goverment tryed again and again and again until it did pass.

BTW, my guess is that pepsi78 has no idea of the riots they have been having in Europe as immigrants have been resorting to violence in several European countries because they say the socialist systems of Europe are oppresing them...

It's not about oppresing, it's about how the economic situation is for emigrants in europe, not really related to human rights.
Don't tell me that you get this from fox news

Originally posted by pepsi78

There were numeros polls done, cnn, abc, even international polls, bush aproval rate is under 40% not even 40%

And those polls were done to a small group of people 1,000-3,000 and has been claimed those people are the voice of the world...

President Bush is not loved by a lot of people in the world, but neither have most American presidents in the past. This is not the first, nor probably the last time that the U.S. in general is bashed away by people in other countries. i has been happening even before you or I were born.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Venesuela does not have power to influence the world, it's a small state just like cuba, if they were affecting the world be sure that people would wonder, venesuela does not pretend do be the beacon of light because it's not.

I don't think you have followed or read closely what has been happening in Venezuela or what Chavez wants. He like so many other Communists
want a permanent revolution to spread around the world. This is something which has happened for a long time, and despite some people claiming "Communism is not bad and they are not out to take over the world" the fact shows the contrary, as Communism still exists in many nations around the world and was exported to those nations by opressing and murdering those people that didn't want to accept Communism, while enslaving those who preferred to live and decided to accept Communism.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Who came up with the idea in the first place

of sanctions.

A Democrat, but who agreed with the sanctions and who wanted to keep the sanctions in place even after knowing how many children and people had died because of them?...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Sadam was an evil man, and evil people go hand in hand, who sold iraq chemical weapons?

Mostly Germany who during the 70 and 80s sold Saddam and helped build Iraq's chemical weapons, and even in the 90s it was because of a German that Iraq acquired gas centrifuge technology.

In the early 1970s, Saddam Hussein ordered the creation of a clandestine nuclear weapons program.[4] Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs were assisted by a wide variety of firms and governments in the 1970s and 1980s.[5][6][7][8][9] As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manfacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.

en.wikipedia.org...

Iraq's Acquisition of Gas Centrifuge Technology

Part III: Treason and Wrap-up

In the early 1990s, Karl Heinz Schaab was investigated for violating export control laws. He was convicted of illegally exporting centrifuge rotors to Iraq in 1993, a minor conviction at the time. In late 1995, after receiving new information about Schaab's activities with Iraq, the German government re-opened its criminal investigation of him.

Following the defection of Hussein Kamel in August 1995, Iraq decided to reveal extensive information about its entire nuclear weapons program. A key new revelation was the extent of assistance by Schaab and his colleagues. When the senior Iraqi gas centrifuge expert, Adel, was asked why Iraq decided to reveal so much new information about Schaab, he explained that he thought Schaab was in jail and already exposed. Some Germans who knew Adel have questioned his reason, believing instead that Adel was ordered by top Iraqi leadership to expose Schaab. Adel and the other members of the Iraqi gas centrifuge program had been highly committed to protecting their German sources of assistance.

www.exportcontrols.org...

Originally posted by pepsi78

People voted because united states wanted them to, every one does what the US administration wants at the United Nations or they get a big veto.
Most of the things that were passed were initiated by the US goverment on to the security council and what did not pass was tryed again and again and again until it did, just like iran, people didint vote from the first time for sanctions but the US goverment tryed again and again and again until it did pass.

You really need to read up on some of the news from Europe... European countries have for a long time said Iran to be taken to the U.N. Security Council..

3 EU nations want Iran taken to UN
By Richard Bernstein The New York Times

FRIDAY, JANUARY 13, 2006


BERLIN Saying that negotiations had reached a dead end, France, Germany and Britain announced Thursday that they wanted Iran's nuclear development activities to be taken to the United Nations Security Council, adding new pressure on Iran to reverse its decision to do research that could develop the technology to create nuclear weapons.

"From our point of view, the time has come for the UN Security Council to become involved," Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier of Germany said at a press conference after meeting here with his French and British counterparts and the European foreign policy chief, Javier Solana. They were reacting to Iran's decision to resume experiments at a nuclear enrichment plant in Natanz

www.iht.com...

Originally posted by pepsi78
It's not about oppresing, it's about how the economic situation is for emigrants in europe, not really related to human rights.
Don't tell me that you get this from fox news

When immigrants are protesting that they are not being treated the same as the natives in those countries, they are talking about human rights. Although i do not agree with them, mostly because of the actions many of these immigrants use to express their supposed desillusions, it does show that there are more problems in Europe than in the United States when it comes to immigrants resorting to violence....

And those polls were done to a small group of people 1,000-3,000 and has been claimed those people are the voice of the world...

Yes all those polls, there are alot of polls done, in a period of time and not just in one region, it does not really matter, since the statistics show that all the polls come out very similar in result, if added you will se we are not talking about 1000 people, polls are done all over the country when compared to each other the result is almost identical, and that is how you come out with an aproval rate.

I don't think you have followed or read closely what has been happening in Venezuela or what Chavez wants. He like so many other Communists
want a permanent revolution to spread around the world. This is something which has happened for a long time, and despite some people claiming "Communism is not bad and they are not out to take over the world" the fact shows the contrary, as Communism still exists in many nations around the world and was exported to those nations by opressing and murdering those people that didn't want to accept Communism, while enslaving those who preferred to live and decided to accept Communism.

Who do you think will join them?
I don't know if I got it all but except china, cuba, vietnam and northcorea who are the others?
100 kilometer countrys? taking over the world? then we must bom them...
and kill a bunch of people just like in iraq, or just let them be and focus on other stuff like health, science and education.

You know this war on terror is bogus, what are the chances of a hijacked plane crashing in your living room VS geting hit by a car in a car accident while you are driving.
You should worry less about comunists and terrorists and worry more about what you eat, how you cross the street, how you drive, how you stay healthy because it's likely that the chances of comunists or terrorists
geting you are near to 0% VS other things.

Let's see how many people die of aids or of cancer in united states VS terrorism, healthcare and reasearch compared to the military budget is no where equal to this facts.
The fact that you got a goverment pomping fear in you, the Comunists are going to get you, the terrorists are going to get you, when in fact the freedoms by law that you as a citizen had once were taken away, are terrorists and comunists taking away your rights? or is it your goverment?

A Democrat, but who agreed with the sanctions and who wanted to keep the sanctions in place even after knowing how many children and people had died because of them?...

I did, I went in the middle of the night to the security council and I signed the papers, honestly, who cares, I was talking about united states loosing it's freedoms and that the fact that bush is a profesional liar, I'm not trying to cover other europian leaders, but at least I have the power to admit that leaders around europe may go wrong, but hey look on the bright side at least they don't give direct orders to tap phones and torture people, also they do not give orders to agencys to kidnap people off the streets.

Mostly Germany who during the 70 and 80s sold Saddam and helped build Iraq's chemical weapons, and even in the 90s it was because of a German that Iraq acquired gas centrifuge technology.

Maybe you better have a look at this.
www.commondreams.org...

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

When immigrants are protesting that they are not being treated the same as the natives in those countries, they are talking about human rights. Although i do not agree with them, mostly because of the actions many of these immigrants use to express their supposed desillusions, it does show that there are more problems in Europe than in the United States when it comes to immigrants resorting to violence....

Really compared to other things this is milk and honey.
One thing is working permits, job related problems, earning money.... and another is torture, abusive conduct, kiddnaping people, and not granting the right to the accused to stand trial before locking him up, and we know where that takes place.

Like jsobecky said, we are the bravest and the most free country in the world, or something like that, I would say, grow up kid there is no such thing, it's only on TV , it's not for real
Too bad for this conversation, I happen to like united states and it's culture, I'm a fan of many american caracters and as I said I also grew up there.


[edit on 7-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78

I did, I went in the middle of the night to the security council and I signed the papers, honestly, who cares, I was talking about united states loosing it's freedoms and that the fact that bush is a profesional liar, I'm not trying to cover other europian leaders, but at least I have the power to admit that leaders around europe may go wrong, but hey look on the bright side at least they don't give direct orders to tap phones and torture people, also they do not give orders to agencys to kidnap people off the streets.
:
Like jsobecky said, we are the bravest and the most free country in the world, or something like that, I would say, grow up kid there is no such thing, it's only on TV , it's not for real
Too bad for this conversation, I happen to like united states and it's culture, I'm a fan of many american caracters and as I said I also grew up there.

To that I would say, grow up kid, if you think that other countries do not kidnap, wiretap, torture and detain people for years. You just don't hear about it because they have no freedom of the press like we do.

Do some research into the prisons of Russia, China, Turkey, and other countries. It will open your eyes, if you let it.

The beauty of America is that we are allowed to speak of wrongs that our country has committed. You can't do that in many other countries. And that is what we should be discussing, not how much we like or dislike a particular president.

The fact that you refuse to discuss other countries, and would instead defend them and bash Bush shows me that you are anti-US.

I think another thing that needs to be brought up is that there is a motive behind the phone wire tappings. If the government wants to listen to my boring conversations in order to protect me and every other american citizen from a possible terrorist attack then so be it. Its not as if they are restricting my conversation anyways. As long as it goes no further then there isnt a problem with it.

And another thing. Pepsi says how the bush administration is so bad and he uses the phone taps to help justify it. The Clinton administration is the one responsible for the phone wire tappings....

Bush is right.
It happens you know.
Bush, can be right. Believe it or not.

Maybe the American press isn't as free as "advertised".
But thats the real impediment to Freedom of the press, Advertising dollars.
Tell a negative story, about an advertiser, and you stand the chance of losing their dollars.

I see people, all day long, mocking, criticizing, demonizing, the current administration. Try THAT in Cuba..pffft..

TO further illustrate Bush's correctness on this topic, take a look at this thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is a story, that took place in China, 12 years ago..And it's just now coming to light. 288 children died that day..Go read the story.

[edit on 8-5-2007 by spacedoubt]

Just a little something for both sides.

The following is the position of the U.S. and the countries listed when it comes to freedom of the press.

53. United States
98. Turkey
107. Lebanon
115. Venezuela
133. Egypt
140. Zimbabwe
147. Russia
148. Tunisia
151. Belarus
152. Libya
153. Syria
155. Vietnam
162. Iran
163. PRChina
164. Burma/Myanmar
165. Cuba
168. N. Korea (The single most unfree of all countries)

Wikipedia

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes all those polls, there are alot of polls done, in a period of time and not just in one region, it does not really matter, since the statistics show that all the polls come out very similar in result, if added you will se we are not talking about 1000 people, polls are done all over the country when compared to each other the result is almost identical, and that is how you come out with an aproval rate.

If those polls were taken in Republican cities and not in democratic/liberal cities you would see a different picture of what "Americans think".

Originally posted by pepsi78
Who do you think will join them?

The countless of countries which have waged "violent revolutionary" wars to oppress the people and spread "the workers revolution around the world...

Originally posted by pepsi78
..........
You should worry less about comunists and terrorists and worry more about what you eat, how you cross the street, how you drive, how you stay healthy because it's likely that the chances of comunists or terrorists
geting you are near to 0% VS other things.

Tell that to the over 110 million people who were murderer by Communist regimes...and you can also tell that to the people who died in 9/11, 3/11, 7/11 etc....

Originally posted by pepsi78
The fact that you got a goverment pomping fear in you, the Comunists are going to get you, the terrorists are going to get you, when in fact the freedoms by law that you as a citizen had once were taken away, are terrorists and comunists taking away your rights? or is it your goverment?

..... I was born, lived and experienced Communism, and I still have family living under a Communist regime so noone has to "pump any fear in me" because I know well what Communism is, and what it does to people and a whole country....

Originally posted by pepsi78
..............I have the power to admit that leaders around europe may go wrong, but hey look on the bright side at least they don't give direct orders to tap phones and torture people, also they do not give orders to agencys to kidnap people off the streets.

First of all the tapping was predominantly done to terrorist suspects, and most of the people who were phone tapped were not U.S. citizens, but had some connection with terrorism.

Second of all, people are not being "kidnapped off the street and tortured"... not even the people in Iraq, unless those people have fought against the coalition....and in case you didn't know those same people are doing worse to our soldiers and even to civilians...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs --

Most if not all of the nerve gas which were used in the 70s and 80s came from Germany...the United States did sell computers, and some biological samples, which supposedly Iraq claimed were for medical purposes, but all the nerve gas and other such WMD were sold by European countries in the 70s and 80s and in the 90s weapons were sold by Russia, China, NK etc.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Really compared to other things this is milk and honey.

Milk and honey?... These people rape women in Europe just for not wearing a jihab, they have killed people in their demonstrations by throwing stones at buses and hitting people, or even burning a man alive when he was trying to put off a fire that was too close to his apartment...

Those problems they are having in European countries are not "milk and honey"...

Originally posted by pepsi78
One thing is working permits, job related problems, earning money.... and another is torture, abusive conduct, kiddnaping people, and not granting the right to the accused to stand trial before locking him up, and we know where that takes place.

A lot of those charges were exagerated and even in these forums we found that some charges were trumped up by some of the insurgent/terrorists...the few cases where such things did happen the soldiers that were involved were put on trial and they are paying for what they did.

As for your claim that the U.S. is a dictatorship, you obviously don't know what that word means. In the U.S. reporters who bash and are critical of president Bush do not end up like the reporters who are critical of Putin in Russia....

In the U.S. people don't get the death penalty for being too democratic, being member of a religion, evading taxes, or having too much drugs on you, while in China people get killed for those penalties i mention and other lesser penalties, which is the reason why the Chinese prisons are not "overcrowding" like in the U.S.....

In the United States protesters are not shot dead in the head or in the chest just because they are protesting against president Bush...nor are people fired from their jobs en mass for signing a referendum against president Bush like what has been happening in Venezuela...

Originally posted by pepsi78
Like jsobecky said, we are the bravest and the most free country in the world, or something like that, I would say, grow up kid there is no such thing, it's only on TV , it's not for real

I think it has been pretty easy to see who is the inexperienced kid. No offense about your age, but when you make such statements you really have to know what you are claiming.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Too bad for this conversation, I happen to like united states and it's culture, I'm a fan of many american caracters and as I said I also grew up there.

I was born in a Communist country, and experienced what it is to live under such an opressive system for 8 years. I was raised in a socialist democracy and lived there for 10 years, and I have lived in the U.S. for over 17 years, and out of all of them the United States is the only place where i was able to become someone, get a college education and achieve my dreams.

The United States is not the "evil place" some people are trying to make it out to be, and it is in fact one of the best places to live at. I would not move to any European country even if I was offered $10 million and a mansion in the Mediterranean.

To that I would say, grow up kid, if you think that other countries do not kidnap, wiretap, torture and detain people for years. You just don't hear about it because they have no freedom of the press like we do.

Do some research into the prisons of Russia, China, Turkey, and other countries. It will open your eyes, if you let it.

I'm not trying to say that there are no other countrys that do that, I was trying to say that united states is among them.

You can't do that in many other countries. And that is what we should be discussing, not how much we like or dislike a particular president.

Dude, you must start traveling, there is a whole other continent and it's called australia, there is europe with most of the countrys that are now 100% democratic, even at the north pole you can bash who ever you want, there are alot of democratic countrys in south america, there are democratic countrys in asia and you can bash who ever you want in those countrys as much as you like.

The fact that you refuse to discuss other countries, and would instead defend them and bash Bush shows me that you are anti-US.

No I'm just sticking to the title of the thread "bush shools ........" that means he is lecturing others on things, and I think it's wrong, some one else should do it.

Tell that to the over 110 million people who were murderer by Communist regimes...and you can also tell that to the people who died in 9/11, 3/11, 7/11 etc....

Comunism in the world is not that spread out anymore, even china has taken a more lighter form compared to what was.
As for terrorism I do not worry about it too much, probaly I stand a better chance to get hit by a car than to die in a terror plot, what are the chance of an aiplane crashing in my house with 5 terrorists on board? under 0,1%? , and if that 0,1% will chose me then if it happens it happens, I rather live my life free ant take that risk of 0,1% than to live by laws that let's them tap phones, let's them violate the privacy of others, and let's them do other things like trashing the constitution and doing what ever the hell they want with any one.

..... I was born, lived and experienced Communism, and I still have family living under a Communist regime so noone has to "pump any fear in me" because I know well what Communism is, and what it does to people and a whole country....

You don't feel it because you are probaly used to it, but wait a few years.

First of all the tapping was predominantly done to terrorist suspects, and most of the people who were phone tapped were not U.S. citizens, but had some connection with terrorism.

No, that is not true,tapping cell phones of jurnalists and reporters, tapping people that called out of the country because bush wanted to find out what they are talking about, he's worst than my grandma she usualy likes to know what others talk about and puts a glass on the wall to hear what others say.

Second of all, people are not being "kidnapped off the street and tortured"... not even the people in Iraq, unless those people have fought against the coalition....

That is not true either.

www.youtube.com...


www.youtube.com...

American citizen held with no charges, no evidence.


www.youtube.com...

Guantanamo has all, chinise , russians, arabs.


www.youtube.com...
How is it that some of those people are held with out any charges and then relised? when found that they had nothing to do with it, how would you like it to spend some quality time in prisson for nothing, and after 5 years of dentention, moching, and interogation, then they come and tell you, we are trully sorry, you may go now, and it does not matter what nationality they are, do you have any idea of how many casses are out there?

As for your claim that the U.S. is a dictatorship, you obviously don't know what that word means. In the U.S. reporters who bash and are critical of president Bush do not end up like the reporters who are critical of Putin in Russia....

Not yet...but it is becoming.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Dude, you must start traveling, there is a whole other continent and it's called australia, there is europe with most of the countrys that are now 100% democratic, even at the north pole you can bash who ever you want, there are alot of democratic countrys in south america, there are democratic countrys in asia and you can bash who ever you want in those countrys as much as you like.

I know that. I didn't say that the US was the only country that allows freedom of speech.

But let's talk about China, Cuba, Egypt, North Korea, Russia, Syria,and Venezuela, why don't we? That's what the thread is about, after all. And how about Thailand, where you are not allowed to say anything bad about their monarchs?

But let's talk about China, Cuba, Egypt, North Korea, Russia, Syria,and Venezuela, why don't we? That's what the thread is about, after all. And how about Thailand, where you are not allowed to say anything bad about their monarchs?

I would place them in a list.
From acceptable to worse.

1 Russia , a country that has a comunist past but things have changed there, if you have state clasified documents and leak them you may get assasinated there, but that could hapen in any other country, one thing that russia has problems with is coruption, as for the democratic sistem there it's not that bad as you think, people have rights there too, maybe not as much as some other parts of the world have but they do have basic human rights, and I think it's safe to say that you can speak against putin there as long as you don't go against russia as the whole country, you could bash putin and say for example, "you are not doing a very good job as leader of russia", or" the war in transnistria and it's failiure is your fault " what it is not acceptable is when you go against other things like messing with state documents that are clasified, or going against the country's sistem it's self as a russian jurnalist.

2 Venesuela
Venesuelans are pour, but love their leader, they re-elected chaves?
The man is not a positive figure and I have no simpaty for him, I would say he has in him some dictator feauters but no where compared to piong yang or china's ruler, most of the people voted for him, he does want to impose a socialist style rulling, but remember socialism is not coumunism, there are alot of social democratic countrys, and one of them is france, democracy is related to human rights , the right to vote etc, capitalism and socialism are other things, you could be a social democratic country, or a democractic country based more on capitalistic values, socialism can turn the tide towards comunism only if the country does not have a strong backgorund on democracy, same go's for capitalism, it can turn in to imperialism, there are bad thingson bolth sides, imperialism and comunism are forms of dictatorship.
I don't really think chaves has alot of power outside venesuela to do anything, his country is just too small, to conquer you need an army,except a few soldiers with some semi-automatic rifles venesuela has no real armed force, as for what he does in his country regarding people there I don't think they care much, most of them are pesants working the land, very pour people, they care more about what they earn than politics, but most of them did vote for him there, as for those who opose him in his country I don't know what the outcome would be, havent seen him abuse people there yet, but I could be wrong and not herd about it.




3 China , it is a comunist sistem but with some democratic and capitalistic feauters.
You can do there what ever you want except bash the leader and the goverment.
You can do there anything except becoming political, you have human rights until you start talking about the goverment bad.
Another thing that is practiced there is censorship , like banning, blocking some internet sites that would be a threat to the chinese goverment, again related to politics.
Other than that to my opininon the chinise have access to what others have, except the choice to chose when it comes to political issues.
Talking bad about the goverment would probaly get you in trouble.

4
North Corea is I think the worst of all, with no human rights at all,starvation all over the country, most people live in fear, north coreans run across the border with the risk of geting shoot by north corean soldier patrols and beg chinese authorities for political asilium and to the surpirse of every one they are granted asilium in china, you see china is very far from north corea compared to everything, humman rights, tehnology, everything even if it's a comunist country.
You don't have to talk bad about the north corean goverment to get in trouble, you just have to dress a little bit different, or seen while you are doing something out of their concept of life.

I'm going to leave out siria and egipt , it's their religion and they like how they live, most of the people there love their way of life even if for us it seems unfited, probaly most of them like it the way it is and if they like it the way it is it is their choise not ours, islam is more radical as a religion and most of the countrys that has a majority of people that have islam as a religion will have an islamic goverment, it's just the way things spin for them, and I think we do not have the right to go there and force them to change the way we want to, if they don't want democracy then it's their choice, for them it's what is writen in the coran that matters and nothing else, I think most of the people in siria and egipt like how things are, to go there and try to change things will simply create conflict, as long as they don't spread their ideas with force I don't think I mind, as for terrorism I can't lable siria or egypt as a terrorist state, there is no evidence to back that up, if there was evidence I would.


My advice to you is to stop beiliving what a single man tells you and look beiond the words of one source.




[edit on 8-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78

3 China , it is a comunist sistem but with some democratic and capitalistic feauters.
You can do there what ever you want except bash the leader and the goverment.
You can do there anything except becoming political, you have human rights until you start talking about the goverment bad.
Another thing that is practiced there is censorship , like banning, blocking some internet sites that would be a threat to the chinese goverment, again related to politics.

But why? Why not let the people decide on what to believe for themselves? This is what creates "Free thinkers". Something that is the driving force in innovation.

PS the Chinese government is far more oppressive then you make it out to be.

Other than that to my opininon the chinise have access to what others have, except the choice to chose when it comes to political issues.
Talking bad about the goverment would probaly get you in trouble.

My advice to you is to stop beiliving what a single man tells you and look beiond the words of one source.

This one.. Boy are you wrong...

Have you ever heard of Chinas execution vans? They are specifically designed to kill human beings right there on the spot. No court warning.. You can be outside playing with your kids and they just pull right on up and take you away and kill you. Then they take out your organs and sell them half a world away.. If you think that the US judicial system is bad, just wait till you hear about chinas...

there is no such thing as freedom in china. The chinese constantly have to walk on egg shells just to appease there government which is ruled by an elite few... It shouldnt be that way. Thats all bush is saying. And hes right.

Chinas execution buses.


Safe to say china is a lot worse then you make it out to be. You want to see a dictatorship? You just defended one..

[edit on 083131p://2805pm by semperfoo]

I can't believe that you trust this movie. It is not from a reliable source. You know, there are a lot of china haters. Btw, if you give me 100 thousand dollars, I also can direct a movie to show you some american execution buses. If you bring the movie to Iran and tell them those people ....

Well, I do know Hospitals in china steal organs from dead people without permission, from a very reliable source, btw.

In addition, the us government is also ruled by an elite few, IMHO. Agree?

Originally posted by semperfoo
Have you ever heard of Chinas execution vans? They are specifically designed to kill human beings right there on the spot. No court warning.. You can be outside playing with your kids and they just pull right on up and take you away and kill you. Then they take out your organs and sell them half a world away.. If you think that the US judicial system is bad, just wait till you hear about chinas...

there is no such thing as freedom in china. The chinese constantly have to walk on egg shells just to appease there government which is ruled by an elite few... It shouldnt be that way. Thats all bush is saying. And hes right.

Chinas execution buses.

Safe to say china is a lot worse then you make it out to be. You want to see a dictatorship? You just defended one..

[edit on 083131p://2805pm by semperfoo]