Why Is Pizza Shop Owner That Shot Armed Robber Having to Defend Himself?

We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."

Cops say shop owner should've been a victim

So the cops WANT us to be victims?

This should be a great story. A happy story. A story that inspires all of us to take our destinys in our own hands and be proud citizens of a proud country that doesnt tolerate crap like armed robbery by drug-dealing rapper wannabes.

But no, we should all cower in perpetual fear and if we shuld survive the crime to live on as victims we should drop to our knees and praise the police for doing whatever it is they do on our dollar.

mod edit: changed to external quote tags

Quote Reference (review link)

[edit on 24-4-2007 by UK Wizard]

Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."

This sertinly doesnt suprise me. Infact let me put it to you this way.. Most cops are the criminals! Wolves in sheep clothing...
If I was a real bad guy, why would I be a thug/street dealer, when the real money and real crime is all from within? Now dont get me wrong, there are some good cops out there. But honestly when I think about this subject I always come back to this.. If Im a smart criminal, how would I go about my biz without being caught? Many bad cops are caught, but Im sorry to say that they are the fall men.. The real king pins are your leaders and they know what they are doing..

This is rediculous.
Some ignorant thug sticks a gun in someone's face, and when that someone fights back and blows the bad guy away, the thug is the tragic hero?
What a crock..just shows you another example of how this country is going down the toilet.

This indeed is a global thing. As I described in this thread here:

www.belowtopsecret.com...'

You either be the victim, or the criminal trying to defend yourself.
Where's justice? That's one of the reason's I'm not carrying a pneumatic gun for self-defence, yet...

Taking a shot to defend yourself only to wound the criminal and have him later sue you or kill the criminal and be demonized in your community?

I guess defending yourself in court could make more widly known the criminals nature but if you live in certain areas your jury could be made up entirely of sympathizers for the criminal and you'd loose everything for wanted to stay alive.

Its like one day I woke up in this bizarro world and the exact opposite of everything that should happens happens.

This guy should have been made an example of why every American should defend himself.

Would the cops rather arrive on the scene to find no criminal and a dead shop owner? Is that whats expected of all of us? To just die and not fight?

On a side note I think 20/20 is working on a future episode about self defense.

www.abcnews.go.com...

Its like one day I woke up in this bizarro world and the exact opposite of everything that should happens happens.

You know, I feel the same way! Its such a screwball world.. We have the mindset here that if not for cops there would be total anarchy. Yet with the cops, they control the crime.. They dont want you shooting one of their own would they.. So be a good lil boy/girl and just tell us what you saw, we will take it from here, move along.. nothing to see here!

I would almost be willing to bet, this street rapper punk was somehow tied to these cops.. I mean this could of been his street boi.. Many cops like to take to the streets and find those who will serve their dark means..
Its like whos side are they on.. and whos side am I on?
Im a good hearted guy I would like to think.. Never been arrested, never shot anyone.. But then why am I so fearful of cops.. I mean I could be going down the road, get pulled over and if they are in a pissy mood they could ruin my life!! Doesnt make sense man... really doesnt.. IM haggard now..

Originally posted by zysin5

Im a good hearted guy I would like to think.. Never been arrested, never shot anyone.. But then why am I so fearful of cops.. I mean I could be going down the road, get pulled over and if they are in a pissy mood they could ruin my life!! Doesnt make sense man... really doesnt.. IM haggard now..

I get that feeling too. Im about as vanilla and harmless as a citizen can get. I drive the speed limit as others whiz by at 90, I hand back the difference if given more change, my taxes are done the day after I get my W-2 yet when I see a cop I feel like my future is in the balance. Will I get rounded up for no reason? Will I get put on some list? If Im pulled over and they see my concealed carry permit, how will they react?

I know how theyre supposed to react but statements like: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects." really make me uneasy and suspicious.

Im so glad the pizzashop owner shot that dumb "yo gimee all yo money" rapper wannabe toughguy. Its bout time the communities stood up against this rap demoralization. Rap is what is tearing black communities appart, and you know what they are doing it to themselves. Black people blame yourself for this, its no longer about outsiders, it is about your own community. There needs to be more people like this pizza shop owner who can say that this kind of behavior is not tolerated in our communities. That rap guy need not be buried, but thrown in a landfill like garbage for the pigeons and seagulls to pick his eyes out. Nothing but garbage.

sadly this is just another example of how messed up modern day north america is. as someone else basicaly put it it feels like everything is exactly the opposit than it should be.

what should happen in a case like this is that unless the "criminal" can PROVE that he was lawfully somewhere and NOT breaking any laws, or trying to commit a crime, or was not armed or pretending he is armed, then this shop owner should have been praised for his actions, not dammed for them. i

crime is a part of life. we will probably never get rid of it compleately. but how much LESS VIOLENT crime might there be if anytime a criminal tried to practice his deadly craft he stood a decent chnce of being killed? it seems to me that quite a few people who use violance in crime are actualy chickens at heart it's just the power they feel from being more powerfull then you that lets them actualy commit these crimes. how would they react if there was no comback on those who protect themselves? no lawsuits or anything.

i know where i live the cops are so over organized that unless they see something overtly dangerouse they can and will not take any action against crimes that they arn't actualy suppost to deal with. for example how many times have you seen a dagerouse driveing situation right in front of a cop without the cop dealing with it? obviousely that cop is not a "trafic" cop. we have thousands of "parking controll officers, they only thing they can deal with is ticketing impropperly parked cars, while an average cop can't give that guy illigaly parking in a handicap spot a ticket.

how many crimes have you seen where the cops don't even care. the first time my truck was broken into it was at 7 in the morning as i went to drive to work. so i went back home and called the police wanting to try to get my stuff back. i got a recording that i had to waite untill after 10 to report it. i called back after 10 and was told to just call my insurance company. NO investigation. so how do they catch car break in artists? they obviously can't unless a cop just happens to see it going on. therefore breaking into cars is a farely "safe ocupation". since the cops don't care i should be allowed to booby trap my vehicle say with electricution. the ownis should be on the criminal. oh i'm so sorry your son was killed but thats what he gets for commiting crime, oh and here is my repaire bill for you to pay.

so since cops are by and large useless, then we should be able to protect our homes and propperties. i know at home several years ago we had a case of a house party where a guest got drunk and dove off the roof into the pool breaking his neck, he sucessfully sued the homeowner for failing to stop him. meanwhile when the full story got out it turns out that said homeowner had done evrything except phisicaly stopping him which would have given the poor homeowner a assult charge. so why was this homeowner held responsible for the independant actions of this guest? if someone breaks into your home and hurt themselves even say something as stupid as slipping on a carpet or tripping over an extension cord, they have the right to sue? seriousely they can be because even thjo this was someone wanting to relieve you of your valubles, it is their right to work in a safe enviroment.

i think the root problem for the wrong people getting nailed ie: sued for death or injury to a criminal is that our societies are saying well "it can't be your fault, it must be someone elses". it's not YOUR fault you eat way too much especialy junk food, it's the stores and restraunts fault for feeding you. so feel free to sue for your own stupidity. there was even a case i heard about where a lady successfuly sued a store because the iles were a bit crowded and she tripped over a toddler hurting herself. the interesting part was it was HER KID she tripped over. untill we finaly put an end to this type of thinking and being able to win cases like these we can't possibly fix the crime problem.

now i don't have a lot of respect for cops as from what i have been through and seen. but i still have to get anoyed evertime a cop gets nailed because "Joe was a GOOD kid never committing any crimes, so why did you kill him", then turn arround and sue the police. we even had a case where a kid was shot while activly trying to run down officers while stoppeng him for driveing a STOLEN CAR. yep you guessed it the cops were sued because they shouldn't have killed the kid they should i guess have just let the kid run them over. and when one is driveing a stollen car how can the kid not be a criminal? but yet again he was a good kid not a criminal so the cops i beleive were successfuly sued for this.

Couldnt have said it better drogo

This is ridiculous. When someone points a gun at you,
you have a right to defend yourself.

The pizza owner might have had a parade down Market Street in San Francisco. Instead, he's scared. He won't even say he's glad he defended his family, and the cops are saying things like this from Officer Roland Holmgren, who said, "Who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did."

So they don't know that the suspect might not have killed
him, yet they say the owner was not justified in shooting
suspect!?

You can see where the police force are coming from but,
I mean the general idea with a robbery, is do whats said, lose the money but ensure everyone is safe.... If everyone started using arms in minor situations, more innocent people will be killed... and the money would still be gone anyway.


At the same time, he probaly saw an opportunity and knew he couldnt lose... so why not take the chance?

I live in Oakland. You call the cops here and they take FOREVER to come help you sometimes. And if you call 911 from certain neighborhoods they don't respond as quickly as they would if you called from, say, Piedmont. By the time the police responded to this guy's call, he could have been dead, and his whole family with him.

The place I lived before this one was crawling with a Hispanic gang. They were animals. They'd go around shooting each other as part of the Friday Night Sporting events. They have no respect for anyone else's life because they have no respect for life, period.

This is just ridiculous. Oh, that "poor poor rapper." He got what he deserved. It's one less punk on the streets and maybe his posse will think twice before messing around with another shop owner.

Preparation for the impending police state! "Oh, don't protect yourself Mr. or Ms. Citizen... we'll do it for you!" Ever hear the phrase, 'We're with the government and we're here to help"? Yeah, right!

The would-be dictators know that in order for their little plan to work they need a complacent and obedient society. One that fears for it's safety and looks directly to big brother government ot provide what each and every one of us is capable of ourselves - security. The last thing they want are a populace with awareness, vigilance or a sense of self-governance!

Gun ownership in the UK and Australia was never as prolific as in the US, nor was gun-ownership, or right-to-bear-arms, a right enjoyed by the people of UK and Australia. It was therefore much easier for governments to prohibit gun-ownership in those countries.

They did so in stages, basically, at least in Australia. Seemingly out of the blue, the media began featuring stories similar to that in the OP. I remember one involving an elderly couple who, like many elderly folk, were being subjected to acute fear by invading gangs of youths who were breaking into old peoples houses (or trying to) at night. The police claimed they didn't have the resources, etc. etc. and it reached the stage where old folk were sleeping during the day, in order to remain awake to guard their homes during the night.

The elderly couple's home had been robbed on a few occasions and their health was being affected by the strain. Other old people reported the same thing. Police kept saying there wasn't much they could do until AFTER crimes had been committed.

Then, one night, the elderly husband shot one of the intruders with his old WW2 vintage rifle. Immediately, the media began barking about "unnecessary force" and the Law gave the old man a hard time. He was sentenced to several months jail, even though well into his 70's. I think his wife died during the period he was incarcerated. After which he was released on account of his 'advanced age'. He went back to an empty house, to live out his remaining years in terror once again, minus the company of his wife of 50 years. He must have wondered why he'd bothered to serve in two World Wars to defend a nation that stripped him of everything in the end.

Ordinary citizens were scratching their heads. What had the old man done wrong? HE had been in his OWN home. The criminals had INVADED his home, under cover of darkness. The criminals had carried weapons. It was obviously a premeditated crime. Further, the same criminals had successfully broken into the old man's home previously, as well as making several unsuccessful attempts to do so, which had terrified the old man's wife to the extent she was a nervous wreck and could have had a heart attack at any time.

The old man had defended his property against armed intruders. Why was that a crime ? The intruders were armed. Were they carrying weapons for fun, or would they have used them if confronted? The old man had been quicker on the draw --- and now HE was the bad-guy ?

The media continued to report similar back-to-front stories, in which the victims were portrayed as villains.

Then the staged Port Arthur massacre was enacted.

Then people were given x-amount of time to hand in their guns.

After that, the only people able to possess guns were the criminals and the police.

Even Mace is illegal in Australia.

The situation in Britain ran along similar lines. A farmer shot one or two criminals who'd broken into his home and who'd apparently done so previously. Suddenly he was portrayed as the 'wrong party' and I think he was jailed. Then the staged Dunblane (?) massacre was enacted. Afterwards, Brits had to hand in their guns.

In Australia, it was revealed that a gun which had been 'handed in' after the gun-ban, had been used in a murder some years later ! Yet the government assured the Australian public that those guns surrendered to the authorities were to be 'melted down'. Obviously that was a lie, considering one of those guns 'fell out of' the authorities' hands and 'fell into' the hands of criminals. And we can strongly suspect that wasn't an isolated case.

In any case, the story in the OP is very similar to media reports in Australia, prior to the banning of guns and it's to be suspected it's all part of the well-rehearsed plan.

It may not be possible for the US government to ban guns (as they did in UK and Australia) so they're probably going for the next best thing --- which is to 'programme' Americans to fear USING their guns in self-defence. Similar to the 'political correctness' programming which has resulted in people being terrified of being branded 'racist' for example. It didn't take the government long to effectively shut peoples mouths and it probably won't take long before people are afraid to defend themselves and their families.

For example, in a post above, someone wrote that despite being a 'model' citizen, they are terrified that if they're pulled over by the police for any reason at all, they will be in deep trouble because they possess a gun licence.

You'll just have to keep your eye on your media to see if they from now on regularly run stories portraying the victim as a villain for defending him/herself.

If that happens, it won't take long before honest citizens will begin burying their guns in their backyards. They won't know why, exactly, they're doing it. They'll tell themselves it's prudent. If asked why, they'll get a haunted look in their eyes and say it's become dangerous to be a gun owner. If you ask how they'll defend themselves and their family, now that their guns are buried under the cabbage patch, they'll shrug and say they'll just have to pray the situation never arises.

Then they might buy a baseball bat. Although I'm not sure what the statistics reveal about the effectiveness of baseball bats against armed invaders, rapists, car-jackers, kidnappers, etc.

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Dock6]

Well first of all, lets leave rap out of this. And don't call everyone who robs a rapper. I guess some people are forgetting the difference betwean a rapper and a gangster. The gangster does the shooting, the rapper does the talking.

Hell, not all rap is negative, and almost every music genre had violent lyrics. Blame it on the person, not on a music. Goddamn, what bs ignorance!


Secondly, all I have to say about the law, is it is total bs, and I read more sad stories in this posts and see the bs. My advice is screw this law, just because its a law doesn't mean its correct. I don't care what the law says, if anybody points a weapon at me or tries to rob me with a weapon, I WILL kill the person instantly.

This law seems like the government trying to control people. Lol, they want us to be the victims? Wtf? This is insane. Anyway, I'm not gonna be obeying this law, try as they might, so I'm not even that angry about it, though I do feel sorry that some other people may suffer from this