Israeli F-22's???

"Israel has approached the USA about acquiring Lockheed Martin F-22s as concern mounts about new threats to the country’s regional air superiority."

SOURCE:
Israel in talks with USA over F-22 orders - Flightglobal.com - DATE: 04/20/07


The article goes on to say that it was US Defense Sec. Gates who brought up the subject last week during his visit to Israel.

So far Japan and Australia have both made inquiries regarding the F-22 and got a firm "no". Now the US Def Sec brings up the subject to Israel.

How do you think the Aussies and Japanese are going to feel if Israel gets the Raptor when they were turned down flat?

Actually it just says the issue was raised, but it's not going to happen. They still haven't lifted the ban on sales for the F-22, and if anyone gets them it will be Japan.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Actually it just says the issue was raised, but it's not going to happen. They still haven't lifted the ban on sales for the F-22, and if anyone gets them it will be Japan.

While I tend to hopefully agree with you that it is not going to happen, this is the first time a high ranking US Gov't official has brought up the subject to another country. As you may recall both Japan and Australia approached the US - not the other way around.

On the outside chance this actually goes down it would please me greatly to see the Aussies and the Japanese get the F-22 as well. They are both as reliable of allies as the US can have.

This could be seen as a message to Iran also, something to the tune of "come to the bargaining table about your nuke program or we will arm your very paranoid arch foe with the ability to strike you with near impunity."

[edit on 4/23/2007 by bios]

Funny you should bring this up. There was a report in the last couple of days here in OZ that the Japanese are going to make a formal request that the export ban be lifted. It goes on to state that Congress voted to lift the ban (which is my understanding), but the Senate has yet to review the bill and vote.

And YES, Australian's would most definately see this as a slap in the face if Israel was offered the Raptor when we were supposedly turned down (this is actually a furphy put out by the local pro F-35 camp and LockMart F-35 sales people. We NEVER actually formally requested the F-22).

Given it's an election year here don't be surprised if a new OZ government makes a formal request for the F-22. The opposition party is looking solid and have made strong noises in the past about requesting the F-22. It might end up that Australia and Japan join forces and request a joint buy of 150-200 Raptors. Stayed tuned to this story in the next 6-12 months it could get real interesting.

LEE.

You're misreading your article. It didn't say that HE brought it up to Israel. In fact other articles I read about it said that THEY brought it up to HIM. As of Feb, this year, the F-22 was still not going to be sold to foreign governments.

Originally posted by thebozeian
It goes on to state that Congress voted to lift the ban (which is my understanding), but the Senate has yet to review the bill and vote.

Actually, the House recommended to lift the congressional ban last summer but during a joint session (House and Senate) in September both chambers voted to keep the ban of foreign sales in place. And the Defense Department made it clear just recently that it is not interested in selling the F-22 to foreign nations.

Even if Japan requests the f-22 it wont get it, besides all the congressional lingo the military is no interested in selling the F-22. Not to mention that Japan always requests to license build US systems. This is a major no-no with the F-22 given the technology that would have to be transfered (not to mention the billions and decades lost in R&D)... And one thing that I just don't like about Japan is their whole attitude, they always want to seem to prove themselves when it comes to the military instead of looking at the big picture...

Same goes for Israel (besides the whole China thing...) they always modify and "customize" US made systems. I'm not sure how comfortable the US military would be about another nation independently modifying F-22's and having access to all of it's date codes. It would make the F-35 source code issue seem trivial...

Australia is really the only country which IMO should get the F-22. They have proven very reliable as US allies and with US technology. They don't wish to "reverse engineer", modify or license build and they don't have subsidized industry/companies (EADS, Mitsubishi etc...) Nor do they have a checkered history of exporting sensitive technology to unfriendly nations.

Ironically Australia is the least likely to get the F-22, for one their government seems determined to buy the F-35 and or other systems (F/A-18E/F) and the US does not seem particularly interested in pushing the topic.

Israel may get it despite the wishes of the top brass due to the influence of their extremely powerful lobby (AIPEC and gang). They can generate a lot of political pressure this way... It's why they get a free pass from the US defense, treasury and state departments for virtually everything...

[edit on 23-4-2007 by WestPoint23]

As for Australia getting them, they have already said they can't afford them in enough numbers to make it worth their while.

As for modifying them, it's the same with how the US gets their planes. They find the airframe that suits them best, then puts the equipment for their situation into it. It doesn't make sense for someone like Israel to concentrate on long range strikes, when their biggest threat is the SAM, and their battlefield is close to them.

Bios:

n the face of Iran's race to obtain nuclear weapons, the Israel Air Force has expressed newfound interest in receiving the F-22 - a US-developed fifth generation stealth fighter jet - and has requested that the Defense Ministry present the request on its behalf to the Pentagon, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

While the sale or transfer of F-22s to Israel did not come up in talks Wednesday between Defense Minister Amir Peretz and US Defense Secretary Robert Gates, defense officials told the Post that Israel would ask to receive the aircraft in order to retain its "military edge" in the Middle East.

www.jpost.com...

[edit on 4/23/2007 by Zaphod58]

Australia is really the only country which IMO should get the F-22. They have proven very reliable as US allies and with US technology. They don't wish to "reverse engineer", modify or license build and they don't have subsidized industry/companies (EADS, Mitsubishi etc...) Nor do they have a checkered history of exporting sensitive technology to unfriendly nations.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Westpoint, nice to see our integrity aknowledged. This is probably one of the reasons why our navy was given unprecedented access by the USN to classified sensitive data for the latest upgrade to our Collins class subs. This included help in the past with the boats screw accoustic signature, the very design and production technology Japan famously DIDN'T protect in the late 80's.

Which makes you wonder why if we are so trustworthy with submarine stealth technology, we might be seen less safe with the F-22's secrets? Especially considering that both sub and stealth aircraft classified data are on a strategically sensitive par.

As for Australia getting them, they have already said they can't afford them in enough numbers to make it worth their while.

True Zaphod, that one gets put out regularly in the press by the OZ government pro F-35 lobby. However there is plenty of data to show this is a con job. In fact if you add up the cost of the Hornet upgrade program (1-2 billion A$) the Super Hornet purchase (6-7 billion A$) and the JSF program (14-16.5 billion A$, this assumes no cost blow outs) using the governments own budget estimates, a realistic costing (not the rubbery numbers that include R&D costs) of around 50-70 F-22's starts to look achievable and with a lot less unknown nasty fiscal surprises.

Of course this is all a moot argument until the US lifts the export ban, and the current Australian government gets kicked out of office, which may well happen at this years election. I must say there would be a certain irony in a leftist Labour government requesting the F-22 over a traditionally pro defence Liberal party.

LEE.

[edit on 24-4-2007 by thebozeian]

if the US gives these to israel they might aswell give over the plans to china and save israel the time of giving them to China.

reply to post by bodrul


AINT THAT A FACT!!

THE BUTCHERS OF BEIJING HAVE NO PRINCIPLES, THEY EXPECT AMERICA TO BE AS WEAK AS THE UK IS NOW, AND THAT THEY WILL THEN RIGHTFULLY LEAD & DOMINATE THE WORLD.

NO-ONE IS MORE RACIST THAN THE ASIANS

I think almost all allies at one stage has approached the US about the F-22's.
Then when they saw that they will never part with the source code for the systems.
Because its above top secret.
And they would have to buy 4/5 x F-22's in maintenance and upgrade costs over the life of the aircraft just to manage it.
They looked elsewhere for a cheaper price tag.
I think the Israeli's though can afford it and might possibly want to just waste the money.
When I say waste of money, I don't refer to the F-22 being an inferior aircraft.
Because its exceptional.
Its just not practical.
For Israel, maybe its practical.

too expensive
too much labour intensive
you might as well just upgrade gen 4.5 aircraft
f-22 just aint worth it