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Follower's of Ishmael

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posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 07:39 AM
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Was Cho's reference to Ishmael a reference to the "religion" that is building around Daniel Quinn's series of books that discuss the philosophy of the required revolutionary "correction" to the human species in order to save the world?

Read about Quinn's Book Ishmael here and ponder on the statements of the followers who have posted in his guestbook:

www.ishmael.org...

Check out the blog writings another Follower of Ishmael

Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast!!!!!

Berserker's Myspace
(Describes himself as "Civilization's Downfall. Servant of Secret Fire.")

Quinn's Ishmael discusses the problems of the "civilized" world we live in now as a system of Leavers and Takers. New words for the "haves" and the "have nots". The Leavers create the Takers by making them consumers - dependent on the crumbs left by the Leavers - and therefore slaves to the civilized society.

Quinn's Ishmael is taught in middle schools, high schools and colleges across the nation. As you can see in this list

www.ishmael.com...

it is taught at Virginia Tech.

It would be interesting to know if it was also taught at Columbine.

Food for thought.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 08:14 AM
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Wow, good research, it will take awhile to read the material and absorb this angle but just from looking at the list of schools using this man' texts, I saw this scrolled down the lefthand side of the page:

As you discuss the ideas found in this book with your friends, you'll be able to spot the old minds easily. They're the ones who are always "playing the devil's advocate," always proposing and concentrating on difficulties, always nailing the progress of your dialogue down to problems. Focus instead on what you want to happen and how to make it happen, rather than on all the things that might keep it from happening.
Beyond Civilization


Anyone else see this as conditioning?



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 08:20 AM
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Very alarming too, if this is an undercurrent, then it is imperative to ascertain what impact this is having upon the psyche of adolescents.

I certainly feel the content is extreme and it would be impressionable.


we don't have 2 or 3 generations or 50 to 100 years


This excerpt is very negative and profound. After reading the comments such as the one above and then revolution in the next para; I think this could be an unpredictable trigger.

The Blogs are a concern also. One could say, blogs are typically thrashing boards but these blogs, I feel entice the reader. I also feel much of what Quinn is offering up is aggressive and borderlines anarchy But, that is my opinion.


Is your school using Daniel Quinn's books?

ref aboven

I sincerely hope not.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 08:48 AM
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Do not forget also that in the statement that Cho "ishmael ax" sent to MSNBC..

He said "Let the revolution begin" as one of his final statements.
Related?



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 08:59 AM
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I actually thought of this immediately as I have read that book last year and own a copy. I even emailed NBC the following during a Countdown segment when they were thinking about Islam or Moby Dick:

In regards to your question about the Ishmael during the segment with Pete Williams at the beginning of your show on Wednesday, April 18, 2007: I would suggest looking into the book Ishmael by author Daniel Quinn. The book is a type of indictment of culture and society. While not as furious and vulgar as Cho, the ideas may be similar and may be a possible explanation for the name, rather than a Middle-Eastern, or Moby Dick connection.

He was an English student, and this is a good piece of literature.


Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

www.ishmael.com...

The above is a website about the book. A community has formed around the book and author.

Just wanted to add that as something for you to look into.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
He said "Let the revolution begin" as one of his final statements.
Related?


Well, what else could he be referring to?
It is too similar. Revolution is all over the Blogs and underlies the theory.

Who else is advocating revolution?



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 09:08 AM
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While I believe that certain books can cause a big impact on some minds that are not working properly to begin with, this young man seems to have problems since early childhood as told by his own great-aunt and family members.

Perhaps been in the US and having to go through a hard time of cultural adjustments also help him relate to certain ideologies found in the books he probably read like the ones Valhall mentions. This is going to be a good topic to research on.

The problem may have been there for a long time and just waiting for the right moment for the darker side of emotional behavior to emerge.

I can only imagine how many other young people find themselves in this same boat and wrongly relating information from misinterpreted ideologies to feed their growing resentment against society as a whole.

In other words the boy snap and the horrible tragedy in VA tech happen.

Could have been avoided? I think so, if we as a society pay more attention to each other and learn to recognized trouble behavior.

But we are not all doctors in how the mind works, we are only human beings all with our own share of personal problems, but the majority learn to deal with their ghost as best as they can without damage to themselves and others.


Great resarch Valhall I was just listening to this link between Ishmael yesterday, while it was reported by the media.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Check out the blog writings another Follower of Ishmael

Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast!!!!!

Berserker's Myspace
(Describes himself as "Civilization's Downfall. Servant of Secret Fire.")


This person needs to, and probably is, being watched, Ted Kaczinski as a role model
, while I understand many people's displeasure with the status quo, (myself included), I choose not to HATE, it is a strong and powerful emotion isn't the easiest to control, and very easy to succomb to, it doesn't take thought, only emotion, I just wonder if our children are getting the education to be able to handle situations when this emotion hits hard.

I am afraid that Quinn's writings are telling the children not to trust....



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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I also thought of this book as I happen to have found it interesting when a student recommended it to me a few years back. However, nothing in the book seems to relate to this in my recollection



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
While I believe that certain books can cause a big impact on some minds that are not working properly to begin with, ...


the site tells me the book deals with;

... a desperate young man is searching for a 'teacher'...
...his 'teacher' turns out to be a mountain gorilla...


Cho, was reported to be disturbed and probably desperate,
but nothing has come out he was looking for a 'life coach'
or a mentor/teacher or zenmaster....

his kinship was with the two murderers of Colombine infamy,
but like marg6043 stated, a person can construct a mental worldview
that can result in a big impact in their life,

Cho seemed to be too seperated from normal reality & life to
join or follow the My Ishmael mindset ... the schools & colleges
that use the authors books including 'Ishmael' are in the 100s,
including Virginia Tech, (and my U of S.C.).

what i'm going to do, is continue reading other posts...but await the
analysis of Cho's computer at his dorm room, to see what material
he read. or papers/stories he wrote, his e-mails, IMs, etc
Cho, constructed a bizzare internal world, after all he was in creative writing and screenplays among other things.

until any release of what he might have read or was focused on & concerned with, and kept safely stashed away on his PC/laptop?
i'll stay with the idea that 'Moby-Dick' was his 'Catcher in the Rye'

thanks,



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 02:20 PM
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Also St Udio we need to keep in mind that he was not a typical average person he was a very intelligent young man, like you say its very interesting to see how he perhaps since childhood constructed a world of his own to live and plan for. . .

Like you said he also was involve with other classical plays writings I feel
that also may have help him in his creation of a fantasy world. . .

Many see this man as just a horrible killer and even a terrorist . . . but his whole troublesome mind will be the topic and speculation even references of future medical circles.

And I disagree that his tape or video should not have shown on the media . . . as distaful as it may seem . . . this is news and it has the right to be in the news. . .

Controlling what we can and not see on the media is the topic of other issues right now.


[edit on 20-4-2007 by marg6043]



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 03:09 PM
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I am going to be completely honest and say that I have read the Ishmael series

In no way, shape or form does it promote violence

it is more of a new age, sociological commentary about why people live the way they do

split up into 2 different types of people on the planet, the "TAKERS" and the "LEAVERS"

the difference is that the "TAKERS" of the planet are only concerned with their own personal benefit, reaping the profits and resources of the planet without giving back for revitalization

the "LEAVERS" are quite the opposite, living in tribes, caring for the environment, caring for one another

the only connection I believe this event has with "Ishmael," "My Ishmael" or "The Story of B" is a name coincidence.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 03:47 PM
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Thanks for posting about these books and Daniel Quinn. I've never read them, when did they start circulating in schools?

[edit on 20-4-2007 by Spoodily]



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Was Cho's reference to Ishmael a reference to the "religion" that is building around Daniel Quinn's series of books that discuss the philosophy of the required revolutionary "correction" to the human species in order to save the world?

Read about Quinn's Book Ishmael here and ponder on the statements of the followers who have posted in his guestbook:

www.ishmael.org...

Check out the blog writings another Follower of Ishmael

Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast!!!!!

Berserker's Myspace
(Describes himself as "Civilization's Downfall. Servant of Secret Fire.")

Quinn's Ishmael discusses the problems of the "civilized" world we live in now as a system of Leavers and Takers. New words for the "haves" and the "have nots". The Leavers create the Takers by making them consumers - dependent on the crumbs left by the Leavers - and therefore slaves to the civilized society.

Quinn's Ishmael is taught in middle schools, high schools and colleges across the nation. As you can see in this list

www.ishmael.com...

it is taught at Virginia Tech.

It would be interesting to know if it was also taught at Columbine.

Food for thought.


I brought this up in another thread, but didnt think that there was any coincidence. I read this book 3 years back, very deep, and thought provoking.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 08:07 PM
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This doesn't have alot to do with the thread, but incase for others like me out there, I recently read that everyone had his name wrong. It's not (firstname) Cho (lastname) Seung-Hui, its actually reversed (or Americanized.) His name is actually Seung-Hui Cho.

Not that it matters a whole lot, but it might aid researches looking for information on the guy. Apologizes if this was already understood, but I've seen alot of people using it the wrong way, so I just wanted to clarify.

There is also an article on the Union Tribune (San Diego) about the Family.
Heres the link



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 09:16 PM
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everyone should read ishmael.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 09:21 PM
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What is that book about? Why is it required reading?



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 10:26 PM
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I figured this is what the topic meant. I don't see how it's possible for Ishmael to have been where this guy got his ideas to do such an act. I base this conclusion on the main "teachings" in the books: Old minds vs. new minds.

old minds try the same thing over and over. If the war on drugs isn't working, let's spend more money on it. The more money we put into it the better job we can do.
New minds say: Ok, we've been fighting the war on drugs for 20 years now, and it's just not working. Let's try something different.

Cho shooting a bunch of people is a way of the old minds. We've been killing people ever since the gun was invented. If he was trying to do something different...i dunno....maybe he would have locked everyone out of the school....? Sometimes it's hard to think like a "new mind"...

Either way, if you all haven't read Ishmael, My Ishmael, The story of B, Providence, or Beyond Civilization, I would recommend you do so.

And just in case it helps any of you...the based a movie off of ishmael. I can't recall the name exactly. It had dennis hopper in it, playing an inmate who was put in prison for defending the gorillas against the rebels in rawanda (or something to that extent). I think it was called "instinct"?

If you check out these books, I'd also recommend checking out derrik jensen's books too...the culture of make believe, and a language older than words. Those are the only two I've read so far


Just please, don't go thinking that Mr. Quinn had this kind of tragedy in mind when writing his books. His writings don't seem to condone any violence at all....it's quite the opposite.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by Spoodily
Thanks for posting about these books and Daniel Quinn. I've never read them, when did they start circulating in schools?

[edit on 20-4-2007 by Spoodily]



I know they were using this book in classrooms at OSU as early as '98, just so you know



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by NJE777
Who else is advocating revolution?


I advocate revolution, as are probably scores of other ATS'ers. Revolution is many things; i.e. Industrial Revolution, Internet Revolution etc. These people here are advocating rebellion, but obviously not even rebellion against the system itself, but instead/also against society itself. This sounds an awful lot like the Egyptian Jihad's logic to attack the citizen's who didn't conform to their own beliefs. This Virginia Tech incident is sounding more and more like terrorism to me (PSYOP / act of violence to achieve political goals).

Hey, I'm not on BERZERKER's friends list. I see he has the infwars crew and many of myspace other 'truther' types in there.

[edit on 20-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]




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