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Follower's of Ishmael

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posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 11:04 PM
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The first two books are a VERY good read. The third lost the luster of the other 2, and to me reeked of an author squeezing the most out of a philosophy and ponderance that began well thought out, but just fell flat.

I certainly don't recall any 'call to action' of any sort in the first two books. I only made it 'bout half way through the third.

It's probably on class lists of reading because it is a very insightful and thoughtful, and has a very strong, exciting, and addicting storyline.

I highly recommend reading at least the first one - but the second book really pulls it all together.

I can however, see how Cho could have related himself to a metaphorical character referenced in the first book by Ishmael - I think the characters name was Mark, maybe someone who remembers better can help me out. Anyways, if memory serves, Mark was an intelligent boy and young man who was good at everything he did. Everything he partook in his life he succeeded in, and prospered, but nothing was fullfilling. One day Mark walked peacefully into a lake and drowned himself. The moral being that the 'taker' civilization was lacking something (feeling as being 'of' the world rather than above it) Unfortunately, if Cho did read these books, and did indeed relate himself to Mark, then he contradicted the philosophy by 'eating the fruit of the tree of life' and feeling he could decide who lived and who died - which is a main point of the 'taker' philosophy outlined in the books. Which reminds me, the books use the story of genesis as a metaphor of the transformation of civilization from the 'leaver' style, to the 'taker' style. VERY interesting.

So if Cho was a follower, he left that following as soon as he pulled the trigger the first time.

I would make more sense I guess, If you read the book(s).



posted on Apr, 21 2007 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by nextguyinline

I can however, see how Cho could have related himself to a metaphorical character referenced in the first book by Ishmael - I think the characters name was Mark,


Didnt Cho refer to himself as 'Question Mark', any relevance you think.



posted on Apr, 21 2007 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
While I believe that certain books can cause a big impact on some minds that are not working properly to begin with, this young man seems to have problems since early childhood as told by his own great-aunt and family members.


I agree. I've encountered someone like Cho, who took a book that he read and believed that it spoke personally and intensely to him. He was later diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia (and a lot of his life story is similar to Cho's), and found meanings in this children's book that the author never intended. It was strange and disturbing, and for many years after I lost track of him, I wondered if he'd show up somewhere as a mass murderer. He loved guns and was isolated from much of society, and this book was a little manifesto for him.

And I'm sure there are many more out there like him.


Perhaps been in the US and having to go through a hard time of cultural adjustments also help him relate to certain ideologies found in the books he probably read like the ones Valhall mentions. This is going to be a good topic to research on.

I agree. However, it needs to begin with an understanding of the culture he was brought up in and how different their ideas of propriety, morality, and good manners can be.


Could have been avoided? I think so, if we as a society pay more attention to each other and learn to recognized trouble behavior.

I'm not sure that it could have, or at least not easily. Remember, he'd actually been hospitalized for mental illness more than once, and a number of acquaintances had believed he would do this very sort of thing.

I think that the "Ishmael" reference is something that ONLY existed in his mind -- like that man I knew who saw psyops instructions written in code in a Dr. Seuss book.



posted on Apr, 21 2007 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by nextguyinline
The first two books are a VERY good read. The third lost the luster of the other 2, and to me reeked of an author squeezing the most out of a philosophy and ponderance that began well thought out, but just fell flat.

I certainly don't recall any 'call to action' of any sort in the first two books. I only made it 'bout half way through the third.

It's probably on class lists of reading because it is a very insightful and thoughtful, and has a very strong, exciting, and addicting storyline.

I highly recommend reading at least the first one - but the second book really pulls it all together.

I can however, see how Cho could have related himself to a metaphorical character referenced in the first book by Ishmael - I think the characters name was Mark, maybe someone who remembers better can help me out. Anyways, if memory serves, Mark was an intelligent boy and young man who was good at everything he did. Everything he partook in his life he succeeded in, and prospered, but nothing was fullfilling. One day Mark walked peacefully into a lake and drowned himself. The moral being that the 'taker' civilization was lacking something (feeling as being 'of' the world rather than above it) Unfortunately, if Cho did read these books, and did indeed relate himself to Mark, then he contradicted the philosophy by 'eating the fruit of the tree of life' and feeling he could decide who lived and who died - which is a main point of the 'taker' philosophy outlined in the books. Which reminds me, the books use the story of genesis as a metaphor of the transformation of civilization from the 'leaver' style, to the 'taker' style. VERY interesting.

So if Cho was a follower, he left that following as soon as he pulled the trigger the first time.

I would make more sense I guess, If you read the book(s).



summed it up well man, it does help to read the book but your right about the two different concepts between the takers and the leavers and cho's actions



posted on Apr, 21 2007 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
While I believe that certain books can cause a big impact on some minds that are not working properly to begin with, this young man seems to have problems since early childhood as told by his own great-aunt and family members.

I can only imagine how many other young people find themselves in this same boat and wrongly relating information from misinterpreted ideologies to feed their growing resentment against society as a whole.

In other words the boy snap and the horrible tragedy in VA tech happen.


"Misinterpreted Ideologies?"

No! It appears that the ideologies being taught by these Quinn people are designed to feed and create growing resentment against society.

All young people have issues that they must adjust to as they grow older, but adolescence is a tricky stage. A child who has been shy or introverted until adolescence is a perfect choice for brainwashing...and so you blame the brainwashed?

There is no way to justify that Quinn garbage...take another look at it...it's Anarchy At It's Best! And it's being taught to American kids in middle schools, high school and college? Something is definitely wrong.

Want to bet that somebody/something big is behind this Quinn guy?

MKULTRA?

Cho's story reads just like that of people utilized to commit the "lone gunman" crimes; multiple personalities formed during childhood are perfect for cultivation. Certain of a lonely child's "imaginary personalities/friends" (the more aggressive ones), the one that was perfect for "indoctrination" is probably who wrote those plays, and committed the executions. That personality was not college educated, so the plays seemed juvenile, but angry...as angry as the Quinn people could make him.

I believe that the Jewish Professor, Librescu, was one of the targets, and most of the others were "cover".

Librescu was affiliated with Dr. Judy Wood (who attended VTech), and many other engineers who had written a letter asking the govnt to correct the "official explanation" of what happened to the towers on 911. By the way, Librescu was one of the top of his field. I believe Librescu was the "target", and that Cho did the "hit".

The poor Professor probably tried to protect his students because he knew (and maybe had been threatened) that this attack was about him! And...didn't a couple more engineers just get shot at Johnson Space Center?

Is the Quinn rubbish being taught to our students helping to enable the induction of more "Manchurian Candidates"?



posted on Apr, 21 2007 @ 10:29 PM
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Theres no need to justify the writings in the book. It's just one man's ponderance of modern civilization and the roots of it's problems, put together well, in a great story.

I highly doubt the philosophy is taught as gospel in schools, any more than the philosophy of the many books on required reading lists. I don't know for sure, I don't attend these schools, I just doubt it. It seems more reasonable to me that the book is on literature type course reading lists, or perhaps a philosophy course, where many philosophies are studied.

Your conspiracy with the professor sounds interesting, and may hold merit, but I doubt Quinn or his books have anything to do with it. For one, looking at the published date of 'The Story of B' - 1996 - was well before 9/11, and was also the third book in the series; so the first book was written and published even prior to that. I seem to have loaned out my others, and they are long gone, because I have no idea who I gave them too.


And to the OP, your take on the 'takers' and 'leavers' is way off. The leavers didn't make the takers, the takers left the leavers. The book specifically tells us who the leavers are; Australian Aboriginals, Native Americans, Amazonian tribes and the likes.



posted on Apr, 22 2007 @ 09:04 AM
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People with mental problems can interpret anything they read to benefit their own ideologies, or mental state they are in, or their own mental constructed world.

A book that for me is just a book and I may interpret with a different view may not be the same for somebody else depending on your own preexisting views.

CS!fan

Books do not brainwash people. People allow to become influenced by what they Read, listen and see because they are in need of some guidance, but we as human beings have choices to take the information we received everyday and either incorporate them into our lives or look at them and analyzed it as just information and stored it for future references or just discard it because we do not agree with it.

We all have our own perception of society and we may agree or disagree with certain aspect of it, but we are not using the negative input of what we see everyday and go into a killing rampage everyday because we are fed up.


The same there is no way to justify that Quinn garbage...take another look at it...its Anarchy at It's Best! In addition, it is being taught to American kids in middle schools, high school and college. Something is definitely wrong


What the boy did with the information from around him in school, books, plays and society he turned into his own . . . he misinterpreted information and manipulated to feed his own mental state.

If every problem that society have, we are to blame it on books and what is given as information for children and young adults to learn and make their own choices as what to incorporate in their daily lives as part of the learning experiences because we are afraid that they may go in a killing rampage, then . . . why we have schools and colleges for in this nation.? We as well keep our children and young people iglass cases so they do not deviate from our expectations of what perfect human being is out to be.

The deviant behavior off one individual is a poor excuse to use as an example for the rest of the population and blame on school and college’s teachings.

Byrd

I also do not think that it was just one book that makes him become a killer, but rather many factors that may have been growing since his childhood. The fact that he already had problems in two occasions because behavior problems toward girls it shows that a pattern was emerging but ignored.

Mental illnesses in our nation are until this day taboo and protected by privacy laws. Something that he new how to manipulate when he voluntarily when into treatment or counseling, he knew the law.



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