Faith or science?

I think we rely on science as being fact too much sometimes. Take the earths core for example. If lava is from the earths core, why doesn't the earths core run dry?
Having to have a scientific explanation or proof in order to believe in something may be holding us back from a greater truth. God works in mysterious ways.

Lava is from the mantel, not the core. It doesn't run dry because even as lava is expelled to the surface there are rocks that are melted into lava by subduction.

Faith is a word with different meanings both secular and religious.

Science is not a religious faith, but those who do not understand science often believe scientific and pseudoscientific claims with a higher degree of faith than warranted even by the original scientists.

The important thing to know about science is that it is based on an incomplete indirect picture and can take wrong turns until more detail is resolved.

Faith is a measure of personal confidence that an individual has in a particular claim. Scientifically, this can be understood better if you understand statistical analysis. There is no such thing as certainty beyond the mathematical numbers which are themselves an approximation of reality.

Parallel and corroborating research increases the scientific confidence level, but this is still not faith. Faith is a personal confidence, not something that numbers give you and may often contradict the numbers. Numbers can also be wrong if formulae are incomplete or measuring equipment fails.

Originally posted by stompk
I think we rely on science as being fact too much sometimes. Take the earths core for example. If lava is from the earths core, why doesn't the earths core run dry?

darkside already explained this one

Having to have a scientific explanation or proof in order to believe in something may be holding us back from a greater truth. God works in mysterious ways.

well, now you're arguing from the false assumption that god exists or that god actually works in any way.

anyway, people don't gain truth from god, they gain truth through SCIENCE. people don't even gain religious beliefs from god, those come from man.

Originally posted by Columbus
Faith is a word with different meanings both secular and religious.

Science is not a religious faith, but those who do not understand science often believe scientific and pseudoscientific claims with a higher degree of faith than warranted even by the original scientists.

The important thing to know about science is that it is based on an incomplete indirect picture and can take wrong turns until more detail is resolved.

So you are saying scientific faith is based on a still incomplete picture of let's say a uniform theory, which is a faith of confidence in the methods of science. Why should people believe that science will find an answer to everything when it has not done so as of yet and is reaching the point of diminishing returns?

Contrarily, spiritual faith is a lot simpler and answers all the important questions that science exerts endless amounts of energy doing.

Your philosophy is like a man trying to find a refinery and source of oil to feed his lawnmower, when all one really needs is a good goat to keep his grass trimmed.

Originally posted by ben91069
Your philosophy is like a man trying to find a refinery and source of oil to feed his lawnmower, when all one really needs is a good goat to keep his grass trimmed.

I don't know about you, but I use a lawnmower which is hand driven, just push it around the lawn and the blades cut the grass with each turn of the wheel. No need for oil or goats for that task. :w:

Faith or Science?

Fundamentalism and Ignorance have caused great suffering whether the belief is secular or religious.

We need to come to some agreement to develop better ethical morals standards or risk becoming more degenerative by our differences and become more cruel, ignorant, hateful, manipulative, corrupt, greedy and deceptful than what we have already become.

We would bring great suffering to everyone and everything wherever we went.

It could all come down to ethical morals, not science or technology, nor religion or worshipping.

[edit on 16-4-2007 by ixiy]

I believe our ethical morals were given to us by God. Everyone knows the difference between wrong and right. Instinct? Science seems to work against faith alot. Don't get me wrong, I've always had an interest in science, but if science tries to overrule God, I'll pick God anytime. Science didn't write the bible, people did. People inspired by God. How can one deny the existance of God and feel comfortable with their potential outcome. Faith at least gives hope. Consider me and optimist.

Originally posted by stompk
I believe our ethical morals were given to us by God.

you believe, but you can't support that belief

Everyone knows the difference between wrong and right.

actually, that is incorrect. sociopaths cannot distinguish right and wrong. the mentally disabled cannot. the incredibly young cannot either

Instinct? Science seems to work against faith alot. Don't get me wrong, I've always had an interest in science, but if science tries to overrule God, I'll pick God anytime.

so you'll take an unsupportable hypothesis over reason?

Science didn't write the bible, people did.

well, a tool cannot write a book...
but yes, people wrote the bible

People inspired by God.

that's a belief, not a fact. it could just be that they were a bunch of superstitious backwoods people.

How can one deny the existance of God and feel comfortable with their potential outcome. Faith at least gives hope. Consider me and optimist.

the argument for comfort.
opium seems to make people feel good too, it gives them hope that they can escape the pain of the world for a few moments, why should it be illegal?

Opium should not be illegal. People don't have the right to tell other people how to live their lives. There is enough land on this planet for everybody, yet some hoard the land so they can make money by selling it to the people who come later. Some day, their will be no land left to enjoy unless you own it. Science, money and material things have become more important than God and therefore we live in a miserable place, where people are made miserable by other people. Could you imagine a place where everybody is forgiven of debt and given a piece of land to call their own with no rule on how to use it? These are God given rights.
Proof? Science needs proof. Faith doesn't. I've seen a glimpse of the afterlife. It IS important how you live on earth. It IS important how you treat fellow humans and animals. It IS important to believe in God. Don't think it's about feeling good. It's about knowing the peace that your future is written in the BIG book. Yes, you are in there too (unless your so bad you've been remove, and then there's no hope), because even though you don't believe, you are loved. But God loves us so much, He has given us the ability to make decisions on our own, and ask for his guidance when we don't feel confident. However, the time has come when your decisions have become permanent. God has become frustrated with us. So think long and hard about how you conduct your life, because second chances are quickly coming to an end. I give you this info through visions and info that I have from God and His manifestations. Time is short. Think about it. Please!
Wanna see?
Type > Bill, God's Messenger < in the BTS search box. That is one of my threads. May it open your heart a bit. Good Luck my friends.
I'm not here for ATS/BTS points, I'm here for souls.

Faith or Science? How about a bit of both, rather than dealing in such absolutes?

Thats like saying that whoever believes in god says that Newtonian Gravity or General Relativity is wrong. In my mind you can sort of prove there is a afterlife, or at least more than is apparent now, so that is what i believe.

Originally posted by stompk
Science, money and material things have become more important than God and therefore we live in a miserable place, where people are made miserable by other people.

yes, because the god centric times (see the dark ages) were SOOO much better...

Could you imagine a place where everybody is forgiven of debt and given a piece of land to call their own with no rule on how to use it?

i can imagine it, but i can't see it stemming from religion

These are God given rights.

fictional beings don't bestow rights

Proof? Science needs proof. Faith doesn't.

well, that is why faith is IRRATIONAL

I've seen a glimpse of the afterlife.

or so you think

It IS important how you live on earth. It IS important how you treat fellow humans and animals.

i live a good life, i don't need a deity to make me do so.

It IS important to believe in God.

is god really that egotistical that it prizes blind belief over logic and reason?

Don't think it's about feeling good. It's about knowing the peace that your future is written in the BIG book.

the argument from comfort

Yes, you are in there too (unless your so bad you've been remove, and then there's no hope),

i thought christianity was about absolute forgiveness...

because even though you don't believe, you are loved.

i have enough love from my friends and family.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well, now you're arguing from the false assumption that god exists or that god actually works in any way.

anyway, people don't gain truth from god, they gain truth through SCIENCE. people don't even gain religious beliefs from god, those come from man.

don't believe because madnessinmysoul doesn't, and doesn't want you too. infact, the notion of a god existing compels him/her to post and cite your claim of such existence, saying it's false. that could be evident of some other problems. could not be, also.

well im not anyone special, just a former psuedo-atheist agnostic unsure type, though much more leaning on atheism, i called it "humanism" at the time, lol .. its funny to look back at yourself.

i'd say that there was no God, and that the ultimate potential of anything that exists was theoretically attainable by you and me, or rather, human beings. anything doable we could do, somehow, someday.

and i dont know why my eyes were opened, as i put it, to this 'extra' existence, i really dont know why. i certainly didn't deserve it, based on actions and merit of character alone, my past is bleak. yet somehow i was still not overlooked, i was still lifted up, with knowledge.

knowledge people like madnessinmysoul, or atheists, claim doesn't exist.

see, to them, i'm crazy. i have delusions of grandeur, and i believe in things that couldn't possibly be. we're all whackos with a totally flawed perception on reality, from the creation to the present to the future, and many would argue we should all be killed. (you know the typical "the world would be a better place without believers" and such, not that ive seen that talk here but we have to admit it exists and people say it, and think it. not the poster unless he claims it.)

yes, we really have existence figured out, from creation to our own ending which we hold so dear as a possibility for the future (nuclear war). oh yea, the free will to erase mankind from the Earth without a trace is touted among some of the same people who will tell you that there is no God, yet, somehow, we have free will to destroy our present selves, and also erase all history of our collective existence, without a trace.


Now I'll admit, even I think there are charlatans.. people who claim to have the spirit but really dont. people who claim money off of it. some people with really deranged ideals.

But if you ask me, God must be angry *IF* those Islamic Jihadists are divinely inspired. Now I wouldn't put forth such an idea as truth but its possible I guess. And if it were, certainly people flinging themselves at us and our collective society from halfway across the world strapped with explosives, in the off-chance that they kill some of us, would be a grave sign.

But if you ask me, all those guys are F#cking crazy, they have a flawed perception of reality. It's their religion. But me, I have it all figured out.

Originally posted by ben91069
So you are saying scientific faith is based on a still incomplete picture of let's say a uniform theory, which is a faith of confidence in the methods of science.

The method of science requires no faith, but the exercise of the method does, just as it requires no faith to believe that 2+2=4, but you may doubt how an individual applied 2+2 in the real world.

Why should people believe that science will find an answer to everything when it has not done so as of yet and is reaching the point of diminishing returns?

Actually, science and knowledge in general are actually increasing exponentially. You can tell this by the increasing numbers of specialized advanced degrees.

Contrarily, spiritual faith is a lot simpler and answers all the important questions that science exerts endless amounts of energy doing.

Depending on what exactly you mean by spiritual or whether you know what you mean if anything at all, the simple answers are probably wrong or meaningless. Although they may have strong personal emotional meaning, they offer no repeatably testable hypotheses.

Your philosophy is like a man trying to find a refinery and source of oil to feed his lawnmower, when all one really needs is a good goat to keep his grass trimmed.

I've been practicing philosophy for almost 30 years. I doubt you have the slightest insight into my philosophy. A goat simply hasn't the physical means to cross the galaxy.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
sociopaths cannot distinguish right and wrong. the mentally disabled cannot. the incredibly young cannot either

Technically true but irrelevant. Sociopaths and the mentally disabled are equally unmoved by religious brainwashing.

Science tells alot of truths, and alot of great truths at that. But science can nither disprove God nor prove his existients. So even with science you can without a dout say God is not here. I tell you God is watching, watch your steps.

Originally posted by slymattb
But science can nither disprove God nor prove his existients. So even with science you can without a dout say God is not here.

First, the search for god is philosophy not science. Second, philosophy long ago defeated the concept of god. The only reason people still argue about god today is because god-believers have withdrawn from philosophy out of cowardice and offer no explanations to the cleaver anymore.

The single greatest weakness of the concept of god is that it is left undefined. Every attempt to define it ends the same. Defeat.

Theist: God exists. Look at the Bible! Look around you! (Yeah, so what?)

Atheist: There is no God, and here's why:

Without a definition, god is in itself a non-falsifiable hypothesis.

Infinity is not a real number, so god can't have any infinite properties and be real.

Using god as an answer discourages looking for a scientific explanation, probably because...

The god of the gaps has been refuted and Christians know it because then run crying when you bring it up. Less and less scientific unknowns remain in the universe for a god to hide under.

The Ontological Argument has been refuted. God is necessary for what in whose imagination? Circular reasoning.

The Teleological Argument has been refuted. If everything in the universe has been designed, it would be impossible to distinguish between designed and non-designed, yet we are clearly able to distinguish random and accidental behavior.

The Cosmological Argument has been refuted. The Barber Paradox proves God can't create himself, it's the old "turtles all the way down" argument. Circular reasoning.

The Anthropic Principle has been refuted. It lacks imagination that other possibilities might be possible.

Pascal's Wager has been refuted. An intelligent god wouldn't let people into heaven because they took the safest bet and didn't really believe.

The Moral Argument has been refuted. People who don't believe in god are moral too. Besides, the teaching method of the Bible isn't real morality. It's a pretense to be good so you can get into heaven, a variant of Pascal's Wager.

And we can go on.

I'm glad to see some serious discussion in this thread.
I thinks science and faith are interconnected. Science started out by people of faith who wanted to prove God exists. What we have found is that God is much more organized than we ever thought. It seems that nearly everything we have discovered can be broken down to mathmatical equations, with maybe the exeption of quantum physics, which are still mathmatical in nature.
Now, maybe we should say that God gave us mathmatics, since faith requires us believers to believe that we are produced in the image of God, Where did this science and math come from? What if 2+3=4. Everytime we added something to something, there would be an unexplainable loss. NO, God has given us the tools to explain everything. If you believe 2 plus 2 is 4, then you should believe in God, because 2+3 doesn't equal 4. Everything has to obey God's law. If we didn't obey God's law, anyone could say 2+3=5. He gave us this concept of math early in the bible. Why? To show us the law. When does a finite number become so large it's considered infinite?
Now for some philosophy.
God=1
2,3,4..... is LESS than 1
0 is greater than 1 and therefore equals nothing.
250,000,000 people in the US.
If 250,000,000=1, there would be nothing greater.

If you take 1 away from 1 do you get 0? NO, your still left with one. See what I mean? We will never equal 0, even in death.
1-1>0 To take away 1 from 1, you would have to start out with 2.

Originally posted by stompk
I'm glad to see some serious discussion in this thread.
I thinks science and faith are interconnected. Science started out by people of faith who wanted to prove God exists. What we have found is that God is much more organized than we ever thought.

who ever said that? Its more like science started because someone wanted to know how re-create fire after the first made it, or how to make an easyer means of transportation of heavy goods.

Originally posted by stompkIf you believe 2 plus 2 is 4, then you should believe in God, because 2+3 doesn't equal 4.

2 + 3 does = 4, why? because I made 4 == 5. there Just numbers assigned to explain a specific value, made up by man just as the alphabet is made up by man. I could say "buni tua frau bob" and it can mean "hello there bob" because i gave those letters and words there own meaning, thats where languages come from.

If you have 3 apples and add 2 more you have 5 apples, not 4, not 6 unless you assign those numbers to the total value of the apples in front of you, in which case your simple makeing up your own numbering system.

Thats simple science, god doesn't come into it.

Originally posted by stompk
Now for some philosophy.
God=1
2,3,4..... is LESS than 1
0 is greater than 1 and therefore equals nothing.
250,000,000 people in the US.
If 250,000,000=1, there would be nothing greater.

If you take 1 away from 1 do you get 0? NO, your still left with one. See what I mean? We will never equal 0, even in death.
1-1>0 To take away 1 from 1, you would have to start out with 2.

thats not even maths. 1 - 1 is zero, want to test that 'theory' get a knife, hold up one finger, now chop it off. How many fingers are you holding up? Answer none, 0.

that whole set of maths there is complete nonsense sorry. you just said 0 is greater than one then you say theres nothing greater than one, make your mind up.

edit: sorry if that comes off as slightly aggressive, i didn't have long to post it or proof read it.

[edit on 20-4-2007 by Edn]

[edit on 20-4-2007 by Lysergic]