Wow, do real people actually believe this??

I was listening to a lecture about conservative evangelical christains being the biggest source of support Israel has. Apparantly the main view is that when their second messiah and some sort of Armegeddon will happen. And thats when 2/3 rds of al Jews will die and the rest will accept Jesus...

***can somone clarify this for me???***

Yes, I've seen that opinion on a number of evangelical Christian sites.

The exactitudes vary. Some believe that the 144,000 witnesses will be Jews.

Chuck Missler is the guy I heard speak on it.

Its really facinating, but I havn't had time to find out more, he has a website somewhere. He's a great speaker with a really sharp mind.. He had a book on aliens being demons as well...

Woaw ! The 2/3 rds ???? And what for the rest of the world peoples and others religions ?????

This also appears to be the belief system of our president.

About five weeks ago, Sixty Minutes did a piece on this very topic, interviewing Jerry Falwell (among others) who advises Bush on this concept. It's the infamous interview were Falwell caled Mohamud a terrorist. Falwell believes he is helping to hasten and/or ensure this version of rapture by guiding Bush down the correct sequence of events.

If you're not Christian... this is terrifying.

yea umm...wow thats creepy...

Originally posted by Zonah_Meshugah
I was listening to a lecture about conservative evangelical christains being the biggest source of support Israel has. Apparantly the main view is that when their second messiah and some sort of Armegeddon will happen. And thats when 2/3 rds of al Jews will die and the rest will accept Jesus...

***can somone clarify this for me???***

Christian�s sweet dream about ultimate victory (and final revenge). Good plan as well.

The 144,000 will be little Jewish Billy Grahams spreading the word, true enough, but that isn't to say that the other Jews are going to be killed. As a matter of fact, the way I read it is they will realize that Jesus was the first coming of the Christ they've been waiting for and they'll reject the Beast.
As far as Falwell trying to lead Shrub in a direction toward prophesy in some manner ignorant of the truth, and Shrub being so stupid as to think one has to be led toward prophesy, I find that heard to believe. That has to be some major assumptions by those who are afraid of a Christian president. Prophesy is the view of the future; it will happen not because it was written, but was written because it happened. We don't have to be led into it. If Shrub and Falwell are Christians, they know this.

TC, that's prophecy, not sy. And, why does anyone have to die? Christianity is already violent with all the wars and stuff they did, why they need a final slaughter of innocents?

Come on, if you kill all but the "holy" ones, then men, women, children, seniors, all die. And I thought he all forgiving, well, wouldn't he at least forgive the children who had no choice?

4 entries found for prophesy.
proph�e�sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prf-s)
v. proph�e�sied, (-sd) proph�e�sy�ing, (-sng) proph�e�sies (-sz)
v. tr.
To reveal by divine inspiration.
To predict with certainty as if by divine inspiration. See Synonyms at foretell.
To prefigure; foreshow.

v. intr.
To reveal the will or message of God.
To predict the future as if by divine inspiration.
To speak as a prophet.

(dictionary.com)


BTW, James, look back at your post and tell me if you might want to clean up before you check my spelling.

All the wars for which Christianity is responsible? I assume any war that wasn't clearly waged by other religions, you attribute to Christians.

Why they need a final slaughter of innocents? Some grammar. Anyway, you really missed a few points in your extensive and exhaustive search of the scripture. You know, the part where the prophet John relates that he saw that even after all the vials poured unto them, the wicked still hardened their hearts and refused to repent. Even though the Angels themselves flew around telling the inhabitants to repent, the inhabitants chose death over God. Where is the innocents to which you refer?

You refuse to see that the Bible was written on the inspiration of a divine God who has infinite knowledge, and you and I, with our extremely finite glimpse of knowledge, think we can second guess him and arrogantly demand of Him answers and on our time and terms.

[Edited on 26-11-2002 by Thomas Crowne]

i just cant seem to comprehend why anyone would even want to believe this...

It's a package deal. Standing alone, it makes little sense. I can understand your puzzlement.

So, gave them a choice by sending angels? Well, guys with wings tell me to repent, I wonder why they didn't? Come on, sounds like something from a Stephen King book. Or maybe something from Greek Mythology. Besides, why would your god kill anyone? If he believes in peace, love, joy, then he wouldn't kill just because people don't believe that a invisible never proven all powerful yet always broke guy exists.

And don't use you can't disprove him arguement, for I could, if I had the links to the answers brought to us by science. The real gods of reality one could see and touch. Like Einstien, Albert, Franklin, people proven to exist. I'm sorry Thomas, but I don't believe that some invisible being wants to a bunch of people after supposedly sending his son to die for them. Also, isn't that human sacrificing? He sent his son to die.

Also, Thomas, I don't say all wars not declared by other religons were by Christians. WWI, WWII, Korean, Veitnam, 1812, Revolutionary, Civil, Mexican, Gulf, Barbarianvs Roman, PersianvsGreek, not by Christians. I meant Crusades, Inqusition, and parcially war on the Hethans.(sp? also, hethans was what Indians were to them) Heck, they even gave them blankets with small pox. And don't say not all were. The spanish were catholic. They took out south america and mexico and south west Indians.

Then the east had Christian missonaries either convert or kill. Later on this stopped with people like Jackson just forcing them off their land. Also, Christians helped Civil War. Down south defending slavery saying it says servants to follow master or something. And while Civil War was fought to keep the US together, but one reason south broke away because they wanted slavery. Also, ever heard the term Christian states? They the states east of the Mississippi and south of Kentucky, then ones full of inbred hillbillies and were racism was strongest. Look it up, and you will find the truth.

Follow god, not religon. No one has died in the name of god, but in the name of your god. It's my god, not yours, you die for not thinking same. God gave every religon a ten commandments(something like them, no killing, cheating, so forth) and they were written by him. All those books were written by humans, then edited by humans millions of times. Don't believe me? Take a day off work, get three bibles with three different publishers, note down all the changes. Sure, it means I have no life, but still, got bored, and wanted to prove my point of different editor, different book. I got over five hundred differences. Heck, some even left stuff out. They'd have a 24, a 25, but no 26 of that part. Then next one would have 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, and 29.

As said, only wat to find the truth is to look. If you believe everything you are told, then welcome to America, land of the greatest government that never lies and is always right!

www.ldolphin.org...

Here is an overview of it ... partly posted below...

really facinating, if you are on the right side, tough if you are not, you have been warned enough


The 144,000 Called

Revelation Chapter Seven describes the calling out of 144,000 select Jewish evangelists from the nation Israel at the beginning of the Tribulation period, just after the Rapture of the Church. The 144,000 will vigorously evangelize Israel, completing the task begun by the disciples of Jesus, within Israel but also extending their field to all the nations. The result of their bold and fearless evangelism program will be hundreds of thousands of converts to Jesus Christ.

This great company of true believers are neither part of the church, nor members of believing Israel as such. They are usually called "the tribulation saints" by Bible scholars. Persecution by the forces of evil under the beast and false prophet will be so swift and severe most, if not all, of these new converts will be martyred.

After the Rapture the believing remnant of Jews in Israel who place their faith in Yeshua will be reduced temporarily to zero. However, the calling and conversion of the 144,000 will soon result in new converts to the God of Israel within the nation, (Revelation 6:9-11, 7:9-17) . Judging by recent history, the number of Jews living in Israel who find a personal relationship with Jesus on an annual basis is perhaps only a few dozen, but possibly might reach several hundreds ---as many converts to Yeshua remain secret believers and do not openly and publicly acknowledge their faith. Suffice it to say that during the first half of the tribulation period we might expect the size of the believing remnant of Jews in Israel to climb to at least several thousands, perhaps several tens of thousands.

The seven year period following the parousia (the rapture) and preceding the epiphaneia (the Second Coming in power and glory), is normally divided into two halves. The first three and a half years are characterized by some degree of apparent world peace as the false prophet (i.e. the false Messiah--Revelation 13:11-18, 2 Thessaloniians 2:1-10, Matthew 24:15) in Israel negotiates a favorable Middle Eastern peace treaty with the help of the political and religious leaders of Western Europe (Revelation 13:1-10).. That peace treaty, described by Isaiah as Israel's "covenant with death," will fail---and terrible war will break out in Israel. The second half of the tribulation period is usually called "the great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) or "the Day of the Lord." Jeremiah calls it "the time of Jacob's trouble," (Jeremiah 30-31, Daniel 12:1). See The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.



The Flight of the Remnant from Jerusalem at Mid-Tribulation

The mid-point of the tribulation is to be marked by a great sign in Jerusalem. The false Messiah (Paul's "man of sin," 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) will enter the Third Temple
in Jerusalem and declare himself to be God. That event Jesus had said in the Olivet Discourse, would bring great peril to the residents of Jerusalem. The peril for believers in Yeshua at that time period will include the immediate danger of military invasion of Jerusalem by foreign armies. The believing remnant of Jews in Jerusalem at the time the false messiah enters the Third Temple declaring himself to be God will also be in grave danger of their lives because of the antichrist's vigorous persecution of believers, that is, those few Jews who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Yeshua. As mentioned above, the size of this believing remnant at the mid-tribulation point is open to discussion, but for the sake of argument it would seem to be some thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of believing Jews. The warning to this group by Jesus in Matthew 24 is as follows,

"Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; and let him who is in the field
not turn back to take his mantle. And as for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days pray that your night may not be in winter or on a sabbath."

Luke's gospel (Chapter 21) gives a slightly different slant on this crisis,

"But when you [believing Jews] see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the
mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people; they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. "

"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Ray Stedman remarks on this event:

Who are they who must flee so urgently when the last days begin? Who dare not hesitate long enough even to go back into the house to pick up a wrap, but must immediately head for the hills? There is no need to wonder, for the Lord says plainly, "those who are in Judea" Now Judea is a geographical part of the land of Israel, ancient Palestine. It comprises the hill country surrounding the city of Jerusalem and includes the city as well. It is to the residents of Jerusalem and Judea that this warning is addressed.

Furthermore, the Lord's mention of the Sabbath establishes the fact that these residents of Judea are Jews. He urges them to pray that their flight will not be in the winter, with its distress of cold, or on the Sabbath, with its travel limitations, for Jews are allowed to travel only a short distance on a Sabbath day. Later in this passage these Jews are called "the elect" ("for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened"), and this makes clear they are believing Jews, that is, men and women of faith who know and love Jesus Christ as Lord and are prepared to live or die for him.

They are not Christians in the usual sense of that term, referring to those who are members of the church, for we are told that in the church there is neither Jew nor Gentile, bond nor free. Jews are not to be distinguished from Gentiles within the church These distinctions, we are precisely told by the apostle Paul, have been invalidated in the church The "middle wall of partition" has been eliminated; there are no distinctions of background, race or religious training that are recognized within the church of Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, Christians, we are told, are free from the law and no longer observe special days, special feasts, new moons and Sabbaths. In his letter to the Colossians the apostle Paul clearly speaks of the fact that the Sabbaths were included in those shadows which were done away in Christ. But here the Sabbath distinctly will be a restricting factor in the flight of these people. Here then will be a class of people who cannot be identified with the present day church They will be Jewish believers in Christ who will be converted after the removal of the church and before the time of the Great Tribulation.

As Ray Stedman has noted, Jesus does not tell the residents of Tel Aviv or Haifa to flee. The greatest danger is in Jerusalem and the peril is so great that the true believers must leave town immediately. The number fleeing will certainly number thousands, perhaps several tens of thousands. They are called to flee to the mountains, and since Jerusalem is already in the mountains of Judea, the flight will evidently be down to Jericho, then across into Jordan. Most Bible scholars believe this godly remnant will find refuge in the ancient rock-hewn cliff city of Petra, or at least in the land of Edom (Southern Jordan). They will survive, protected by God, for three and a half years.



The route of escape for the Jewish believing remnant from Antichrist's military pursuit as he seeks to annihilate them, has been made ready by the Lord:

"He (the last king of the North) shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and

Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. " (Daniel 11:41)

Evidently Jordan is given special protection during the last great invasion of Israel which will in fact devastate the Land. Isaiah the Prophet instructs the believing remnant of Israel to find a safe hiding place during the time of Jacob's trouble when God's judgment will fall on the whole earth,

"Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the wrath is past. For behold, the LORD is coming forth out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her, and will no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:20-21)

Christian states? Inbred racists? Sounds a bit like you're throwing rocks from your glass house, friend. Your history slip is showing all around you as well. But I don't have time to correct all your mistakes. As I said, in your mind, it is the Christian that leads all the wars. You also see it as the North was heathen and the South Christian. Gosh, Seth, you can sure dig a deep hole.

Furthermore, it is the version of the Bible, not the publisher that makes the difference. You aren't telling me something I don't already know. While you sit at home after school jotting down the differences in the texts, I let the computer sort them all out for me. You may have noticed me mention the documents upon which this nation (united states of America) was founded: The Articles of Confederation, the constitution for the united states of America, the Bill of Rights, and the KJV 1611, upon which our law was founded.

No offense, James, but your not very knowledgeable of the book - any version. Furthermore, I believe you've sat around reading the different books no more than I believe you to be a 25 year old married dude, Seth.
If you don't believe it, that's your own choice. Had you actually read the Bible and attempted to understand it, you might have gotten a clue about the simple questions you ask. As it is, one has to wonder why you spend so much time jumping into all the posts that mention Christianity.

By the way, Christianity doesn't deny science. Many of the leading scientists were Christian, as well as today's scientists. You really have some strange hangup about Christianity being false and anything uttered by a scientist as gospel (Punny, huh? ) How many times have you been wrong when you proclaimed for a fact something that was touted by a scientist, only later it to be disproved? You'll rack up quite a collection if you do that. Everything from the Peking Man to Lucy seems to be disproven (first a hog's tooth, the other an extinct ape). Science is merely a logical and orderly pursuit of knowledge by humans. We are often wrong, and as technology advances, our perspective of what once declared factual changes. I've alsways enjoyed science, but I've never had a personal relationship with the Almighty Microscope as there isn't one. I do have one with my Saviour, and He does exist. I know because it is more than just a book.
Anyway, you have the right to chose as you may. Chose and get on with it.