Separation of creation and creator? Does Creator Exist?!

This is a challenge to anyone: If it can be demonstrated that there is a separation of creator and creation, and it is logically explained over the defining aspects of Existence and consciousness, then we will have a conclusion.

Existence can prove to all of the religious "faithfull" that there is no separation of any thing. Separation is an optical illusion of the "naked" eye, yet even if you look closely, you can see connectedness every where, if not for the fact that you are standing on the ground that connects the entire Earth and every other Human Being on it to you, then the fact that light Exists every where (no beginning and no ending) eternally, and is connecting everyone and every thing for ever.

Romans 1: 20-25

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

See above, they are no longer invisible. "God" is not only a "He". "God" is a she, a he, and an it. Most importantly: there is no single creator named "God" in "Heaven".

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

The content of this thread and the determined outcome will reveal this answer. Who became fools and profess themselv(f)es as wise, are not thank full and do not truly glorify "God"?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

What Humans have done to Existence is called it imperfect, corrupt, not at a state of equillibrium, and a trial place for so called "souls". "God", or the eternal consciousness, that which is the Existence, the Existence that we are, is perfect and unblemished, the eternity of Existence lacks judgement and expecation and nor can the eternity of Existence be subject to Human judgements and expectations, if otherwise it cannot and will not be known.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Porno, clothing, body deodorant because we have become insecure with our natural smells, lipstick, make up, all intents have become exterior obsessions and possessions. No longer is the body honored and accepted for its beautyfull naturality, Humans diss courage their own self and alienate themselves from the stars, the galaxies, Existence, and their own bodies.

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Does it not say here that "who" ever changes the so called "truth" of God in to a lie and "who"ever worships the creature more than the "creator", is blessed for ever?

How is this not seen? How many will be that "who"? Is this a mess up? Is it intended to mean what it says?

I hope to attract many responses for both myself and repliers, and have a civil, well mannered and calm conversation.

[edit on 9-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Ok, I seen you on another post and you misquoted the Bible there as well. You seem to take the verses out of the content in which they were written. Why do you do this, I don’t know. I do know just about everyone who wants to argue about the Bible does this. I will not argue about my Lord or the Bible. I will though answer ONLY these questions on this first post.

Paul is doing the talking here. He is speaking through a letter to some newly born again Romans. He has been beaten and put into prison several times for his belief in Jesus. He starts off pretty much letting them know he’s not ashamed of The gospel of Christ.

KJV Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

He tells them they will have to live by faith.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

He tells them that God will punish the ungodly and unrighteous.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Why?

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Therefore people should know better not to sin. All has been written and told us beforehand. We know how not to sin. We just choose to sin.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

God made everything visible to mankind. Nothing is hidden. Therefore we have no excuses for our sins.


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Now when Jesus came to them. They knew Him not. They understood not. They were wanting a KING to sit over them and rule them and bring them out of their oppressions from the Romans. They denied Jesus as their King. They denied Jesus as their God. They denied Jesus as the Son of God. Therefore God gave them over to their vain imaginations. In doing that they became fools. As in not knowing the truth.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

Being fools, the people then made idols to worship. Images like man, and birds and beasts.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Because of the images to false Gods. God gave them up at this point cause they was not serving Him. Therefore all lust of men was upon them. They cared not for God but the idols they made and things of the world. They wanted what only pleased them and not what was right. A lot like what is going on in today’s world. So men was with men and women with women.

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

These people changed all of what they were told by Jesus and made it into a lie. And started worshipping and serving the creature more than the Creator whom is God. People do that today. Worshipping anything that is not God including putting themselves above Him.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Because they changed and made God a lie and worshipped the creation rather than the Creator whom is God. They then went into deeper sin. Like I said before men with men and women with women. And much more to come.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Again, because they no longer worship God and instead are worshipping idols and nature, They now have a reprobate mind. Which is someone who is immoral. Someone who just has no moral values of themselves or anyone else. Therefore this is what becomes of that person. They become:

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers.

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So now you have the consequences of what you have become from worshipping the creation rather than the creator whom is God. The consequences is a spiritual Death. Separation from God.




[edit on 9-4-2007 by Shar]

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

He tells them that God will punish the ungodly and unrighteous.

What can be unGodly if we are all in God's image? If God gives us free will then we can only live according to what God has endowed us with, thus we are all living by God's laws.

Thank you. Though it still does say this...

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The consistency here is the "who". Who is blessed for ever and who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped the creature more than the creator. Insert name where "who" is. Example...

"John changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, John is blessed for ever. Amen."

Thank you for your post.

The nature of faith that comes with religion is understood, here the purpose is in breaking down the speech and actual meanings derived there of.

Where Christ said he cometh to bring the sword and divide the people, what does Christ mean by this? Why are those Christ's intentions? If this is the truth of Christ, then why do some Christians want every one to be Christian and scorn those who are not? Would Christ not want us to be divided?

If we are to always be divided, then how can we ever have peace? We must learn free will and not indoctrinate each other in to religion. If this is what "God" wants (some proclaim that Jesus is God incarnated in to flesh) and we are in God's image, then God must have some dilemna's of God's own. This is not an attack, it is merely applying logic and reasoning to the gospels of the Bible.

There was no miss quote. What was quoted was quoted of intention and of focus.

My "God" is the eternal consciousness, the eternal Existence, the Eternal energy: there can never be a separation from this, because we are it

[edit on 9-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Your still twisting this quote. Read everything about it. This is a common here not a semicolon. Who is blessed for ever is talking about God the Creator not creature. The rest of the verses back this up with what happens to the persons mind and soul when they do this. Which I already gave you. God is the one who is Blessed for ever. Amen. The other person is turned into a reprobate mind. Which I already told you.

Where Christ said he cometh to bring the sword and divide the people, what does Christ mean by this? Why are those Christ's intentions? If this is the truth of Christ, then why do some Christians want every one to be Christian and scorn those who are not? Would Christ not want us to be divided?

OK this is Jesus speaking to his disciples. There is a lot in this chapter. You seem to be going to the end of it though and quoting this:

KJV Matthew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


How sad He was to know that by Him proclaiming the truth that He is indeed The Son of God many upon many will turn against one another. He already knew this. Why because He is the Son of God who knows all. So He foresaw what was to come. He’s telling his disciples that people will be against each other even in their own families. Listen up He tells them. Mother will be against the Son and the Son against mother and brother and sister and so on. Like he is giving his disciples the warning of the fights and arguments that will come about. Cause some will choose to believe in Him and some won’t. There fore arguments will happen. It’s worse than a republic and democrat in the same household. Those two people will never agree on anything. The same here. If you believe in Jesus and your mother don’t there will be division among you. Like verse 36 says. A man’s foes will be those of his own household.

If he is the son of God, then why does God say that we are all children of God?

Could you explain the term soul, please?

So if God is the creator and is Not in the creature, then where is God?

I can relate with the arguing. My family turned against me, though I never damned them.

As far as chapter 25 is concerned, I still see it the way I see it and that is the only way that I can see it, because it is reaonable, logical, and consistent with the reputation of who

[edit on 9-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

"Who" goes with other verses. Your leaving them out. Your taking one verse and trying to leave out the ones before it. And the ones after it. You should never, ever do that to any of the verses. You need to read it altogether.

In my first response to you I told you I will only answer your first post. You keep coming back with more and more questions. I cannot and will not type my fingers off here.

I'm sorry if you don't believe in God maybe one day you will. Maybe you won't its your decision. If you believe and just don't understand what you are reading prey about it first before you read and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in your understanding.

For most of your questions you don't put the book or chapter your even talking about. You should always put your book, chapter, and verse.

[edit on 9-4-2007 by Shar]

There is no God and I do not believe in God. There is no creator and was no beginning, there will be no end and that is our Existence. It is eternally here and eternally there, thus making it eternally no where and eternally nothing (no-thing), while being eternally every thing and this making things eternal (divided things), specifically energy.

Praying is good, but it doesn't have to be to God.

Praying is merely focusing thoughts and looking intently for answers.

Romans Chapter 1:20-25 was mentioned. The rest were in response (quotes).

In my first response to you I told you I will only answer your first post. You keep coming back with more and more questions. I cannot and will not type my fingers off here.

You don't have to, thank you for your input!

I am in search of conversing about how there can be separation of creator and creation, and how a creator could Exist.

Worshipping an image in the mind is no different than having an actual image in front of the self: the mind is the source of all "creation" as so "creation" is the source of all minds, but never was there a void of emptiness Existing

[edit on 9-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
There is no God and I do not believe in God.

And I don't believe there is such a thing as the Queen of England, but my belief in her existence is not necessary for her to exist. Somehow I doubt that God's existence is reliant your belief in him. Aside from that simply making a statement is not a good argument or proof of ideas.

There is no creator and was no beginning, there will be no end and that is our Existence.

No beginning? How can that be? Why hasn't the universe reached the point of thermal death where all sources of heat and energy are dissipated equally? I realize that this would take a long time, but if we've had an eternity of time before this moment, then there's no reason to believe that this wouldn't have happened by now.

Don't even start with the eternal expansion and collapse of the Universe or I'll have to show you how you've just proven that you could have never started this thread since we were waiting for an eternity of expansions and collapses before you were around to start this thread.


(expand...collapse)(expand...collapse).....infinity cycles in the past...(expand..LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal joins ATS)

How did we breech the infinity of universal cycles to arrive at the point in time where you joined ATS ergo you never had the opportunity to join and start this thread. The reality is that when you started this thread you disproved your main theory that everything has always existed.

Originally posted by dbates

Dearest friend dbates, ( I mean that seriously, I'm a nice guy )

And I don't believe there is such a thing as the Queen of England, but my belief in her existence is not necessary for her to exist.

Reality is in the mind. For those who have become disconnected from Existence, then God truly does Exist in their illusional reality, although that is not the truthfull nature of Existence. The above statement is very true. Yet all things Exist, because Existence is the imagination and imagination is Existential experience. The only problem is this: nothingness is a non Existing factor, therefore it's not really a factor at all, yet it is because we can use it although we can not ever physically have it (nothingness is the void of every thing, completely every thing, no atoms, no molecules, no air, no darkness, no space: no Existence, NO WORDS, no thought). When explaining God, many religious peoples say that God is outside of the "universe". Now how is this possible if there is no "outside" of the "universe"(Existence, energy, physicality)? And where is God? God is most oftenly referred to as a man. Now I'm wondering why the almighty creator needs a penis if He doesn't have sex, and if he does, who is "His" wife? If he doesn't have a wife, then is God breaking God's own rules of marriage?

Somehow I doubt that God's existence is reliant on your belief in him. Aside from that simply making a statement is not a good argument or proof of ideas.

Well, then most Christians (since I take it, that is the majority of the religious peoples on BTS/ATS) need to take a look at God. God is simply a statement made with no proof or ideas that hold up to intelligent scrutiny.

No beginning? How can that be?

God has no beginning, doesn't "He"?

Why hasn't the universe reached the point of thermal death where all sources of heat and energy are dissipated equally? I realize that this would take a long time, but if we've had an eternity of time before this moment, then there's no reason to believe that this wouldn't have happened by now.

Can you explain the reason, please. And why hasn't God reached a point of thermal death where all sources of heat and energy are disspated? God is "eternal with no beginning and end, correct?

There is no dissipation of energy because energy is eternal, it can neither be lost nor gained. Heat can never be lost, there is no absolute zero. Light creates warmth and light is eternal; Shadows are not absolute darkness, they only Exist because of the light. Shadows are a lesser degree of light and light is a lesser degree of "shadow", just as "cold" is really only a lesser degree of heat/warmth, and heat and warmth are only a lesser degree of cold: these are measurements of temperature, there is always measurable temperature. Existence is ambidextrous, it is a mirror, an endless reflection (image) of its eternal self, and selflessness.

The "universe" is not a bubble, it is an eternal expanse that is not expanding, it already Exists everywhere, there is no limitation except for the limits that eternally make it up.

Don't even start with the eternal expansion and collapse of the Universe or I'll have to show you how you've just proven that you could have never started this thread since we were waiting for an eternity of expansions and collapses before you were around to start this thread.

No, there is no collapse, nor is there an expansion occuring. Eternity is not only a measurement of "time", it is a measurement of "space".

How did we breech the infinity of universal cycles to arrive at the point in time where you joined ATS ergo you never had the opportunity to join and start this thread. The reality is that when you started this thread you disproved your main theory that everything has always existed.

Memories are merely experiences that have already happened, as experiences are only memories that have seemingly not happened, or perhaps they have... uV aJ eD

[edit on 11-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Why keep posting if you dont want to hear the truth. You do perfert the bible saying to make sense in your own head to keep you from believeing. Maybe if you stop believeing in what you want to believe that the hand of all things might help you. Other wise I think you just want to argue.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
why hasn't God reached a point of thermal death where all sources of heat and energy are disspated? God is "eternal with no beginning and end, correct?

My belief is that God exists separate from and outside of this Universe. He (if you please) does not depend on the Universe for His existence. Aside from that He has an infinite amount of energy so there's no time limit involved.

You might be interested to read the insightful passage in 1 Timothy 6:16 as it references God

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.

NASB

God is in part infinite energy and his physical appearance in this Universe would probably cause quite a stir. But there is a catch or a back door way for Him to gain access so we can contact him. It is my belief that Jesus is God's way of physically entering the Universe. Reading John chapter 1 we see that Jesus in fact is the one that created this Universe so it would be no stretch of the imagination from Him to enter it in a form that we can understand.

I do agree with your previous post (in this or another thread) that God is not male, female, or anything that we understand. He is just referenced in that manner so it's easier for us to grasp the idea of his existence which in full reality is beyond our imagination or understanding. Hopefully I'm not adding too much theology to this thread.

There is no dissipation of energy because energy is eternal, it can neither be lost nor gained. Heat can never be lost

Heat is not lost, but once it is evenly disbursed and there is no energy exchange possible all life and action in the Universe would cease. It would be static as a photograph.

[edit on 11-4-2007 by dbates]

The problem with this whole dilemna is there is no "outside" of Existence, and what most on Earth call the "universe" is really an eternal expanse of space and "time". There can be no outside, and is no outside.

An entity that ever believes in "God" can never comprehend this

[edit on 12-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

You cannot prove there is no outside existence, where the proof. Heaven if you ask me is in a world not of our own. we could see if god wanted, and yet its not in our power to open it to us.

Originally posted by slymattb
You cannot prove there is no outside existence, where the proof.

Just as you cannot prove that there isn't through the "creator God" logic that you are using to assess Existence with.

You cannot prove there is an inside Existence, because there isn't, neither is there an outside Existence. Existence is Existence, eternity is eternity, outside and inside are only relative judgements made by conscious and conscience sentients while experiencing the observational judgements of themselves.

Brief Explanation:

Energy = oxygen, ball = Human perception of Existence, pin = brave "Godless" Human

If I am holding a ball, I can make a judgement that there is oxygen "inside the ball" because I have blown the ball up with oxygen, but there is also oxygen "outside the ball", the parameter of the ball acting as a shield to the outside air is only an illusion. The rubber of the ball is in contact with the oxygen on the inside of the ball and the outside of the ball, thus ultimately connecting them. The air of the outside is exactly the same as the air of the inside, it only takes the poke of a brave pin to actually experience it.

Now, see the ball as Earth, look outwards and feel your connection to eternity, because you are it

And know you might see why I believe like the ball with air. so like God events and expernces in life and opening my eyes. I hope he does the same with you.

The Barber Paradox - Suppose there is a barber who only shaves men who do not shave themselves. Does the barber shave himself?

Suppose there is a creator who only creates that which is not already created. If something is already created, you cannot create it. Can the creator create himself?

Originally posted by slymattb
I hope he does the same with you.

It was a metaphor for Earth and the majority of Earth consciousness. We're not in a little bubble, nor is there a beginning or end to this Existence (that most call the "universe")

This is a honest and respectfull question. Why does God need a penis? I'm not sure if the other religious folks I have asked think that I am joking or not, but all attempts at having this question answered have been dodged.

I'd really like to know, thanks

But I know its a serious question. I am one to believe God has a body of his own. Some dont believe it. But its written in scripure that he does. A good question is why does he. Well the fact is I bet he could have acually sex. But he is too holy for that. Why does God have a body. Bodies seem more real than a spirit, at least that what I would think, haveing never seen a spirit out side of a body. God made us in his image, we eat drink and piss, whats to say he does'nt. I know how stupid it sound cuz I dont believe that part. But its possiable.

Now you must explain what spirit is, then soul, and the rest of the "non-physical" realm.

Non-physicalities do not Exist, that is the mental eye opening awareness that the blessing of "no-thing", Nothing, No thing brings.

Now we could go ontalking about the non-physical, but the point is it doesn't Exist.

We might as well talk about experiencing "1 and 2 dimensional" realities (that by the way don't Exist)

How do you know the spirit or non phishical realm dont exist. Can you prove it. Or you just trying to say that is the truth. Cuz most athesis would of told me prove it.