Stop Iran now

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
No one can prove right now where it was...

Actually I'm sure several sources using RADAR and GPS would be able to tell us exactly where it is but then again I doubt either side is going to allow civilians on board to go through radar and GPS positions.

And the British are part of the coalition... You dont become seperate entities just because you dont approve of the US tactics in interogation.
Im sure there are British personnel in AbuG anyways, again you cannot prove that the British are NOT performing torture, likewise neither can I.....

Yes we are part of a coalition but this is an incident between the RN and the iranian government, they took a soveriegn ship inside iraqi waters illegally.
Also you will see that the UK adheres to the EU human rights laws and therefore cannot torture someone, therefore we do not torture people. And I doubt there are UK people at the AbuG since the US does a good enough job itself I doubt the UK needs people there.

I dont think Iran will torture them... ( wow who woulda thought, Here we are arguing the fact that the US tortures people and wether Iran will or wont )

Well if Iran does torture them it will be a very bad move politically and militarily, the UN is looking for a reason to begin strikes in there and abducting and torturing several UK citiznes illegally would not paint a good picture of them to the UN security council.

Originally posted by kozmo
Just out of curiosity - why not go ahead and move to the Middle East? As far as I can see, your opinion would have you believe that the Middle East can do no wrong while the rest of the world can do no right. Put your money where your mouth is - pack it up and head to Iran.

Know what I cant understand, Kozmo,

Is everytime anyone at ALL doesn't agree with our WESTERN policies, people like you tend to say how sick they are getting of their anti-west rhetoric and automatically tell them to move to the chaotic territories?

Questioning authority, policy, civilian deprevation, and a propensity for WAR from an alleged PEACE loving democratic society is ABSOLUTELY the definition of US, Democratic, and WESTERN Patriotism...waging war unnecessarily under false pretense, proliferating pestilence, and gearing up for being the Worlds Police is not...instead I offer that you should move to those territories where it would be impossible for you SEE this inalienable right of Patriotism (aka, speaking your mind) so that they could not annoy you further AND you would be at hand to see the results and perhaps feel their pain.



Added to this and it's topic, to the OP as well as any others, like the Palestinian borders, or any others in the ME for that matter, it seems that the boundaries are ALWAYS in question, whether it be Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, etc...I doubt it's within the scope of posting here that we could legitimize those boundaries even if we tried...while one can claim they were legitimate OP's anti-smuggling team, it can also be argued that they had in fact breached sovereign border, pending the cartographer du jour I imagine..


Waging an all-out war, extraction teams, or any other catalyst that may ignite a fire we could possibly not be able to extinguish is counter-intuitive to a free people....we need to ride this out and be patient...Iran EXPECTS us to be inflamed....doing the right thing isnt hard, knowing what the right thing is and NOT doing it IS hard


AB1

May I add that this is a British topic not an american, find it rather annoying other members trying to hijack this thread an attacking the US.

If you want to do the above start another thread, an stop trying to stray off topic.....

If the Iranians have nothing to hide, then why are they refusing the Access to the detainees?

To show the world that they are being fair, would it not be in their best interests to let the Ambassador access to the detainees?

And btw, I will repeat again, the Ships commander has even said that those marines and saliors were in Iraqi waters and not Iranian......

[edit on 25-3-2007 by spencerjohnstone]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Hmm... i suppose testimony from captured soliders under duress from the captors isnt acceptable as admission........ or is it ?

Mod Edit: removed quote of previous post
Quoting Etiquette – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by sanctum]

If it is not painfully clear to you and others let me say it.

Most people will say whatever someone else wants them to say when they are holding a gun on them or knowing musliums, threatening to cut off their heads

Originally posted by devilwasp

Actually I'm sure several sources using RADAR and GPS would be able to tell us exactly where it is but then again I doubt either side is going to allow civilians on board to go through radar and GPS positions.

All we need is one piece of proof of this vessel being in Iraqi waters.
Sure, the navy wont let people on board.. but c'mon... we can put man on the moon, rovers on mars.. im sure they could find a way, to show evidence from radar history, from photos, from what ever... where this vessel was at the time.........

Also you will see that the UK adheres to the EU human rights laws and therefore cannot torture someone, therefore we do not torture people.

Off the top of my head I dont know what the torture laws, exactly are.. but i always thought it was like an umbrella type deal where every country must obey, or else your advocated on human rights.
Wether the British are doing it, or handing captives TO the US to do it, unfortunately... the brits and the americans are so interconnected, what one days, effectivley is done by both.. in my mind..

Well if Iran does torture them it will be a very bad move politically and militarily, the UN is looking for a reason to begin strikes in there and abducting and torturing several UK citiznes illegally would not paint a good picture of them to the UN security council.

Thats why I dont think Iran will torture them, although, whats the chances of the British accusing them of doing such regardless?....
Probably not high, but if the coalition really is looking for an EXCUSE..

I think they have it.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Originally posted by iori_komeiWell that is debatable, the territorial waters in the area have highly
disputable borders, so much so that one map shows one set of borders,
and another shows a different set.

I think this really was Iran deciding they were going to do this, just to
be prats.

Havent the British soliders admitted they were in the waters though?
And I cant see Iran kidnapping coalition soliders so publically FROM coalition zones.. thats a major kick in teh balls to the coalition from Iran... frankly.. I dont think Iran are that stupid.

The US have already admitted they make incursions into Iranian territory, so we know ITS NOT past them from entering iranian area's....

Wether the british did get lost, or purposly entered iranian waters..
IRan have every right to do what they are doing.

Whats the chances Iran put a merchant ship so close to the border, on their side..

knowing full well the british would inspect it...?



[edit on 25-3-2007 by Agit8dChop]

You couldn't make it up.

Loads of people laughed at the news story earlier that a Guatanamo detainee recently admitted masterminding the 9/11 attacks.

Now British troops have supposedly admitted entering Iranian waters after interrogation, and everyone believes the Iranians!

In 2004, the capture brits also admitted entering the waters, they were released, came back to Britain and then insisted they were in Iraqi waters.

The government HASN't conceeded this, Blair has just reiterated his stance. And the millitary also insists they have the technical evidence to prove it.

It's high time we invade.. no better yet we send some missles into iran destroy their nuclear power plants or any of their electrical plants and then invade their sorry excuse for a religious nut job country. Then get our troops back that they illegally are holding then I say we fire their entire government and build a new government in its place. I think its quite clear Iran wants to play tough so we just come out weapons blazing, I think they need to see just how bad things can truly get for them.

Originally posted by Peyres
Loads of people laughed at the news story earlier that a Guatanamo detainee recently admitted masterminding the 9/11 attacks.
Now British troops have supposedly admitted entering Iranian waters after interrogation, and everyone believes the Iranians!

I agree,
We forced to believe the admissions about all the attacks being one mands achievments....
yet... the british admitting is bunk.

it can be seen from BOTH ways at the moment.....

they have the technical evidence to prove it.

So release it? why go on camera, in such a strong stance (blair) saying u have evidence backing up your tough talk...

yet... you dont release it?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
All we need is one piece of proof of this vessel being in Iraqi waters.
Sure, the navy wont let people on board.. but c'mon... we can put man on the moon, rovers on mars.. im sure they could find a way, to show evidence from radar history, from photos, from what ever... where this vessel was at the time.........

Photos=not likely.
Radar history= Possible depending on the terrain and type of radar being used.
What would really be needed is the records of the GPS sat that are (supposed tobe ) attched to the RIBS con unit, there are bound to be records of the comunications between the sat unit and the satilites in question..

Off the top of my head I dont know what the torture laws, exactly are.. but i always thought it was like an umbrella type deal where every country must obey, or else your advocated on human rights.

EU human rights laws cover torture and the UK is signatory of that treaty and therefore must adhere to it.

Wether the British are doing it, or handing captives TO the US to do it, unfortunately... the brits and the americans are so interconnected, what one days, effectivley is done by both.. in my mind..

The UK and the US are two seperate entities but you need to understand where the very obvious differences are between the two coutrnies. British troops dont conduct torture and if they do then the red caps will be down on them like a ton of bricks (look at the latest trials.)

Thats why I dont think Iran will torture them, although, whats the chances of the British accusing them of doing such regardless?....

Because it would undermine the british position, accusations are bad enough but false ones bring your argument very much into question.

Probably not high, but if the coalition really is looking for an EXCUSE..

I think they have it.

The Coalition has neither the man power or ability to go into iran especially the UK military.

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by devilwasp

The Coalition has neither the man power or ability to go into iran especially the UK military.

I hope your right...
but we dont need to invade...
and all the sabre ratling from both sides for the last few yrs...
isnt happening to end in a diplomatic way....

Yes mrmonsoon "Most people will say whatever someone else wants them to say when they are holding a gun on them or knowing musliums, threatening to cut off their heads..."
_______________

I'm a wee-bit curious what Prime Minister Tony Blair will conclude when he get's to the mike?
I understand there's all kinds of shxt to consider and other Countries' brass to consult. But let's get on with it.

Iran, with all due respect Fred T, is dictated by old fashioned, sixth century book, sword swinging radicals. Their nuclear ambitions are the problem I feel. Rid the world of that threat and then deal with hellish response from radicals. Extreme?, you betcha. But how many choices are left?

Dallas

news.bbc.co.uk...

Read this. It shows what proper protocol is when a country demands something from you. If Iran wants admission that you did something you do it no questions asked no matter what the situation is.

This is general and wide spread knowledge for when one is captured.

So, what does this mean? It means Agit8dChop's arguments concerning their admission of being in Iranian waters holds no ground here whatsoever.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Bugman82]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Hmm... i suppose testimony from captured soliders under duress from the captors isnt acceptable as admission........ or is it ?

I wouldnt qoute me on this but I thought I heard the iranians pull out a map and asked the brits where they were located, which was in the disputed waters, now when the brits gave out their local the iranians said HAH those are our waters. That is their so called confessionh. And if thats the case it doesnt hold much water.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Originally posted by devilwasp

The Coalition has neither the man power or ability to go into iran especially the UK military.

I hope your right...
but we dont need to invade...
and all the sabre ratling from both sides for the last few yrs...
isnt happening to end in a diplomatic way....

the logistics are their for a naval and air campaign. Ground forces are a possible no no. The US has enough marines but a war with Iran would possibly stretch the US military way to thin.


And the weapons are certainly there. The US has developed a super bomb that can be carried on the B2A spirit. Its a 30,000lb bunker buster bomb that can dig down 200ft before exploding. This bomb is more effective then a nuke.

We have a thread on it here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...'
I wonder who that can be used on.

To my knowledge it is an act of war to abduct another countrys service men. The brits need to quite pussy footing around and get serious with the iranians.



[edit on 023131p://2403pm by semperfoo]

Here is a witness who says the boat the brits were searching was anchored in Iraqi territory. This should substantiate the captain of the British ship, and incriminate Irans actions. Could what Iran has done here be considered an act of war?


www.thepeninsulaqatar.com... 34322.xml

[edit on 25-3-2007 by u4itornot]

Originally posted by C21H30O2I
illegal to go into iraq? why because you didnt find the A-bomb? we know they had weapons of mass destruction because we the cia and others gave it to them meaning Iraq.

lol reminds me of Dave Chappelle:
-why is the american governement so sure that Iraq has WMD?
-because they have the receipt!

Serously though, what a bunch of bull. The fact that as american troops guarded the oil installations, while hospitals museums and the like were left completely defenceless against marauders tells me everything i need to know about this war.
And can we please stop musing over the incident with the boat? Bottom line is, noone knows what really happened out there. Forget what the Iranians, or the British, or even the sailors themselves are saying. WE DONT KNOW. This whole discussion is pure speculation. The only thing we know for sure is that some sort of political game is being played. Well just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

Originally posted by xpert11
Some way has to be found to halt Iran's Nuclear program and curtail Russia influence in the region.

So the US is the only country permitted to have influence in the middle east?

Personally, im not convinced that Irans Nuclear Program is the threat it is being made out to be. The media is trying to convince me that Iran is selling nuclear material to terrorists, but I am yet to see a nuclear device set off by terrorists.

Originally posted by xpert11
As for the British sailors that were captured if it is proven that they were taken in Iraq's waters the SAS should be used to extract them. This way Iran couldn't use for them for the purpose of political games.

What do you think should happen if its proven they were in Iranian waters? I noticed you left that information out of your post.

Here is what Tony Blair had to say today, denying that they violated Iranian territory and sternly warning Iran. Also a map at the bottom of the page shows the area of operations for the ship.
news.bbc.co.uk...


[edit on 25-3-2007 by u4itornot]

This is scary, this article says on March 18th an Iranian newspaper called Subhi Sadek threatened to kidnap western officers,
"we"ve got the ability to capture a nice bunch of blonde haired blue eyed officers and feed them to our fighting cocks"
link
mvdg.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by devilwasp
the UN is looking for a reason to begin strikes in there

I think this is a very good point.

The UN has been split since Iraq and needs something to unite them. Iran is the key to it. With all standing strongly against Iran, the UN only needs one more push to give the go ahead for a military strike.

IF any of our troops are tortured or even put on trial, we should use military force. Heck, if the guys and girl are not back by Friday then we need to punish Iran hard.