Tobacco and alcohol 'are more dangerous than LSD'

Originally posted by kronos11
True... many see this is a bad side effect but in native cultures this person would be gifted with "sight".

Well, they can have it. I'd very much like for the text on my computer screen to not wiggle on the bad days. Or to not see static on any solid colored surface. Or to not occasionally see my water glass start to sink into my desk.

At least the sounds are gone.

Originally posted by apc
Well, they can have it. I'd very much like for the text on my computer screen to not wiggle on the bad days. Or to not see static on any solid colored surface. Or to not occasionally see my water glass start to sink into my desk.

At least the sounds are gone.

True.. I do understand the problems here. This type of "sight" is not too compatible with modernity, ie. computer screens, desks, etc... Also, the "static" you are seeing on solid colored surfaces is what is called "prana" - its the primal material of all that is on earth and it is the substance that threads dimensions. If you were to be trained to use your "sight" then you could actually use these pranic fields to generate intense visions that have been given to many "seers" throughout the ages. These visions are the keys to understanding the meaning of life on earth.

Great about the sounds though... I have used '___' before but not alot and I haven't in a long, long time so I have never had the "flashback" thing but I do know many for whom it is severely bothersome.

[edit on 24-3-2007 by kronos11]

Originally posted by whitewave
I've seen psychotic people who smoked but they were psychotic before they started and having them quit didn't change that. Even pot (which has 10 times more tar than tobacco) tends to emotionally stunt the user to the chronological age that they began using it. I agree it does have medicinal benefits and should definitely be allowed for that but we don't need ANY more mind-altering substances out there. People are being permanently, irrevocably damaged in the prime of their life to the point where they are unable to function, hold down jobs, stay out of jail, form lasting relationships, etc.
I saw/took care of an 18 year old girl who died of a heart attack from snorting coc aine. It was heart-breaking to have to go out and tell her parents that their 18 year old daughter died of a disease the parents weren't even old enough to worry about for themselves yet.
By far, the worst disease with the most complications and the hardest to treat is.......drum roll please......obesity. We take care of more fat people who are hospitalized for obesity-related problems than for anything else we treat. Heart attacks, strokes, impaired mobility, falls, fractures, suicidal depression, pulmonary emboli, athrosclerosis, diabetes, etc. All improved or health risk eliminated by shedding extra weight.
Moral of the story? Legalize drugs and outlaw junk food. Druggies will kill themselves a lot quicker than obese people and will be less of a financial drain on the healthcare system than obese people. Before you get your panties in a knot...I'm being sarcastic, of course. Any chemical you put into your body, even legally prescribed, FDA approved ones should only be taken if no alternative to your problem exists. They're all dangerous. *steps off soapbox*

This is some of the best, most honest, and qualified talk I've heard in a long time, and coming from a health-care professional gives it a weight far beyond rant.

For that I'll give you might last WAT

I can only agree in your observations, whitewave. Thank you for your parenthesis on the tar amount of pot. Smoking it myself I've suspected for many years something like it. When people in a debate hails pot for its non-damaging effects on your lungs compared to tobacco, it's sheer nonsense, I understand.

As kronos are hinting at, psychedelics can only be judged in the context of the culture that uses it. What might be a divine experience in a culture of shamans or sadhus, might be a psychosis in ours. But then again some of the actions of our resource consuming lifestyle of consumption would be deemed deeply insane in theirs.

This study discussed only takes in account the toxic effects on a physical level, and I'm beginning to have my doubts in it too. Even alcohol can induce dormant psychosis, but only by far higher intakes than any psychedelics will do. It's a well-known fact for some people one toke can do it. And for '___' one drop one time can make it irreversible for life.

The real danger (for the establishment) about psychedelics is it makes you question the common values that makes our societies go around. Especial the material ones, so it has the power to make our economy go down. That would be very damaging for corporations and welfare alike. But highly beneficial for mother earth, because the philosophy of our economy is growth for growth sake, BTW the same as the cancer cell's. That's the real reason they won't legalize.

I say expand mind rather than economy.

Well I certainly cannot discount apc's experinice nor would I try... i can only speak of my own... from the mid 70's to the early 90's I smoked cigarettes with two breaks one for 5 years and one for 3 years. And I smoked either pot or hashish on a daily basis with a quarter ounce a week or better being my average consumption. I did '___', peyote and magic mushrooms on a regular basis as well. I have tripped well over 100 times...possibly closer to 200. I also consumed alcohol of varying amounts on a daily basis as well. I have never done XTC, heroin, speed or downers (except alcohol) and coc aine bored me.

Currently I drink every now and then sometimes good wine sometimes beer. I have not smoked cigarettes in 8+ years. Pot is a treat that happens a few times a year and the last time I dropped acid or anything like it was maybe 1990.

I have had none of the experinces apc has recounted. No psychotic episodes, no flashbacks, no depression no thoughts of suicide.

apc please don't take offense at what i am about to say as I don't mean any insult from it. I do not know you so I can only speak for myself but I have always been, even at my flightiest, very stable and centered within myself. I am a reader with many and varied interests that changes on a regular enough basis to keep things interesting. In short I have a very rich internal (mental/psychological/spiritual) life and I can only credit that with preventing me from suffering any serious damage from my drugging years.

I am overweight but little of that is from alcohol, rather good food (my own cooking ) and limited activity from a bad knee and I have COPD from smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes for years. I am a definite character however and proud of it...(if you reach a certain age and are not a character you're just a slacker who isn't trying )some of that is from the drugs but also from my life experinces.

I can honestly say that i enjoyed my drugging and do not seem to have suffered serious harm from it, though I know many who do. But at the same time I do not mourn its (my drug usage) passage. It is simply part of who I am and there is no point in either denying it or wringing my hands over it either.

I am sorry that your experinces were different.





[edit on 24-3-2007 by grover]

Hhhmmmmnn what's worse,
wet brain = alcohol
psychosis = '___', (given a predilection)
cancer = tobacco
depression = ecstasy ......

Looks like there ain't no free lunch.

I read that every brain has only a certain amount of seratonin and when ecstasy flushes the synapses with it, it uses it all up causing permanent damage. Doesn't seem right though, that our brains wouldn't be able to produce seratonin. How they make it in the first place.

Jogging is great for producing endorphins, but hard on the knees.

The drug classification systems are ridiculous. The only reason alcohol is the legal drug is because it made our country's rulers rich.

Originally posted by khunmoon
The real danger (for the establishment) about psychedelics is it makes you question the common values that makes our societies go around.

They also show you that reality is truly a construct of the mind, and to never trust your eyes.

grover
apc please don't take offense at what i am about to say as I don't mean any insult from it. I do not know you so I can only speak for myself but I have always been, even at my flightiest, very stable and centered within myself. I am a reader with many and varied interests that changes on a regular enough basis to keep things interesting. In short I have a very rich internal (mental/psychological/spiritual) life and I can only credit that with preventing me from suffering any serious damage from my drugging years.

None taken of course. One mans pleasure is another mans poison. When it comes to hallucinogens, there is rarely a catchall criteria. The damage done by amphetamines however, such as MDMA Ecstasy, is consistent.

clearwater
I read that every brain has only a certain amount of seratonin and when ecstasy flushes the synapses with it, it uses it all up causing permanent damage. Doesn't seem right though, that our brains wouldn't be able to produce seratonin. How they make it in the first place.

You're right to question that. Serotonin is largely produced from 5-Hydroxy L-Tryptophan (5-HTP). The precursor amino acid tryptophan can be found primarily in meat protein.

>
review the link I referenced in my second post in this thread for a detailed explanation of how MDMA affects serotonin levels.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by apc]

I feel the following drugs in their natural state, when used in moderation, are completely harmless to human beings and if regulated like alcohol would not be that bad to society as a whole:

Cannabis
Mushrooms
Coco leaves (the stuff they use to make coc aine)
Peyote
Opium
and others...

Originally posted by apc
The damage done by amphetamines however, such as MDMA Ecstasy, is consistent.

Personally I can confirm that.

When in 1966 I first went East, we encountered a drug sold over the counter in any pharmacy in Turkey and Iran called Preludin. We used it for about 4 weeks and I went from 90+kilos to less than 60. It did irreversible harm to my metabolism, haven't been able to gain the weight loss again no matter what and how much I eat. Now I'm stable on 70+ to 75 kilos but it took me more than 5 years to get there. As for the psychological effects, I suffered depressions for more than 2 years (actually acid helped me get over it).

This to tell it was the effects of one month of abuse ...that will last for a lifetime. The few times after I did try amphethamines it had all the opposite effects, withdrawal, inactivity and instant depression, so far from the joy and energizing treat it first had.

"Speed kills" was a common slogan in the 60s. Nothing is more true.

I feel the following drugs in their natural state, when used in moderation, are completely harmless to human beings and if regulated like alcohol would not be that bad to society as a whole:

Cannabis
Mushrooms
Coco leaves (the stuff they use to make coc aine)
Peyote
Opium
and others...

Research disagrees with most of that, but discussion along this particular line would violate the ToS of the board. We've been dancing pretty close to the edge in this thread. Lets try not to dive off it.

[edit on 24-3-2007 by apc]

I just stick with some alcohol and some cigars or cigarrettes now and then.

I think it's easier to moderate usage of tobacco or alcohol. A little bit too much of some drugs can put you in the hospital or kill you very quickly. You don't have as much room for error because the substances are so powerful in tiny doses.

I don't think that drinking a few cold ones with your buddies on the weekend is going to cause any significant damage.

You really need to have some sense when you drink, because you can kill yourself with alcohol poisoning. Know when to put that glass down, and say, "that's enough."

The enjoyment of alcohol comes with responsibilities. Alcohol is not the answer to all your problems. Use it responsibly.

Troy

Originally posted by apc

I feel the following drugs in their natural state, when used in moderation, are completely harmless to human beings and if regulated like alcohol would not be that bad to society as a whole:

Cannabis
Mushrooms
Coco leaves (the stuff they use to make coc aine)
Peyote
Opium
and others...

Research disagrees with most of that, but discussion along this particular line would violate the ToS of the board. We've been dancing pretty close to the edge in this thread. Lets try not to dive off it.

[edit on 24-3-2007 by apc]

Ooh, you mean the government's research? And you trust their studies? Sorry to say I dont. I dont trust the government as far as I can throw the capital building into the ocean (oh I wish, with the white house going in first) They wouldnt happen to have an agenda to keep these substances illegal would they?

I would trust mushrooms before I trust '___' ('___' is man made so it would not surprise me you experienced horrible side effects from using it). Does this sound familiar? Seems like all man made drugs, over the counter or otherwise causes some form of adverse reaction and/or side affects.



[edit on 25-3-2007 by Tyranny]

Gotta tell you Tyranny, '___' isn't excactly man-made. It's derived from a fungus, so it would be more correct to call it the worlds smallest magic mushroom.

From Wiki

Lysergic acid diethylamide, commonly called '___', '___'-25, or acid, is a semisynthetic psychedelic drug. It is synthesized from lysergic acid derived from ergot, a grain fungus that typically grows on rye.

Ooh, you mean the government's research? And you trust their studies? Sorry to say I dont. I dont trust the government as far as I can throw the capital building into the ocean (oh I wish, with the white house going in first) They wouldnt happen to have an agenda to keep these substances illegal would they?

I would trust mushrooms before I trust '___' ('___' is man made so it would not surprise me you experienced horrible side effects from using it). Does this sound familiar? Seems like all man made drugs, over the counter or otherwise causes some form of adverse reaction and/or side affects.

... mmmk. Lysergic Acid, the source ingredient for '___', is derived from ergot, a fungus that grows on wheat [or rye as referenced by khunmoon]. This fungus is in my opinion the most likely source for half of the Christian Old Testament, as well as countless witch trials.

Psilocybin (your "magic mushrooms") generates most of its hallucinations through increased intraocular pressure. Press on your eyelids... notice the similarity? This can eventually lead to ocular hypertension and then glaucoma (but you'd like that, wouldn't you?). Not to mention everything else in the shrooms is toxic. Throw in a clueless grower and you've got a mold infested harvest and a night long session of praying to the porcelain god.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by apc]

apc, when I was young we used to say "Better '___' than LBJ". '___' was the first - and smallest - magical mushroom around.

I agree with you the influences ergot might have had on spiritual thinking through out history.

'___' is dereviated from a fungus, ergot, which grows on grasses and on rye especially, let's establish that fact.

Before pesticides ergot could be a major healthproblem in Europe for animals and people alike. They had to eat the grain, infested or not. In quantities large enough it is known, among other alienments, to have caused mental disorders, like dance mania and is connected to powers of witchcraft and ghost spotting.

There's a little about that fungus, ergot, in this Wiki-link.

Among those who studied ergot and its derivatives was Albert Hofmann, whose experiments led to the discovery of '___', a powerfully hallucinogenic ergot derivative that affects the serotonin system. Contrary to some rumors, ergot contains no '___', but there are links between the two substances:

'___' was first synthesised during research on the active ingredients of ergot.
Lysergic acid, a raw material used in the synthesis of '___', was and is still prepared from ergot.

I disagree with what this study is trying to say and basically believe that it is skewed to present the facts the way the "scientists" wants. It has alcohol way ahead of '___' but the study is only looking at the most extreme cases and there are way more people who are drunks than people who take '___' but that does not make '___' less harmful than alcohol. I drink all kinds of alcohol from beers to wines and other liquors but I do not do it to get drunk. I haven't been drunk in over a decade because I use moderation. I drink because I like the taste and some alcohols do have health benefits. You can't take '___' in moderation. '___' will create a hallucinogenic effect in even the most tiny dosage and there is no other reason to take the drug other than to experience this hallucinogenic high. Alcohol does have an intoxicating effect in large doses but '___' was created for the specific reason of altering the chemistry of the human brain. To even suggest that it is less dangerous to consume a hit of '___' as opposed to drinking a beer or glass of wine is loony and dangerous. I have a feeling that anyone who hasn't been taking drugs all of their life could pick this study apart all day long.

Since '___' seems to be the topic at the current moment in the discussion, I'd like to bring something up. Back in july I was in New York and went to the CoSM (Chapel of Sacred Mirrors), which is an art exhibit (for the most part) of Alex Grey's work. Lucky me got to spend about 3 and a half hours with him, and during that time, he started talking about Albert Hoffman.
Apparently Alex was fortunate enough to get to attend Albert's 100th birthday party. The topic of how he discovered '___' came up. Albert said that he left his lab to go home for the day. On the way home an ANGEL appeared to him. This angel told him to go back to the lab and make the thing that would bring peace to the world. He went back to the lab, discovered the chemical, dosed himself, and the worlds first trip was born.
What strikes me so odd about this is that it is an angel that commanded him to go and find it. An angel for crying out loud!

I know all about drug abuse. I'm no saint myself. But when it comes down to mushrooms, '___'...I've always been careful with them. I do think they are sacred and that our government at least needs to set up a place where we can go to use said substances for religious purpose. If that's what it takes to gain trust, I'd be all for it. But the current stance on such things really really needs to change. It's frustrating that all these different churchs are allowed to go an worship whenever they want/need/have to, yet I get put in jail if I want to be with my higher deity.

sorry if I seem to be ranting. I've had this one building up for almost a year

Originally posted by apc
The problem with regulation, or legalization if you will, is that there is no doubt the number of children experimenting will increase. Adolescent brains are still developing and any damage done has long lasting effects, many of which don't present until years later.

which is why proper education is needed in schools, not just drug propaganda.

i sympathise with whats happened in your past. however, you cant pin the blaim on the drugs themselves, you have only yourself to blaim. Please dont take that as a personal jab at you, it just needs to be stated.

I will go as far as to say drugs have actually improved my wisdom and knowledge of the world.

you cant say you've lived until you have experienced altered states of consciousness, because ultimately consciousness is the very foundation of reality.

If you have never drank alcohol, DON'T START
If you have never smoked cigarettes, DON'T START
If you have never smoked pot, DON'T START
If you have never took drugs, DON'T START

The above statements serve as a warning, keep yourself clean, don't become tainted with poison.

Alcohol - The Worst of The Worst.

I started drinking / getting drunk on a regular basis when I was around 14, this continued for around 15 years. Alcohol for me was the catalyst for many of the biggest mistakes I have ever made in my life. I also witnessed this fact amongst the others I saw drinking alcohol. Whilst drunk I have fought with my fellow man, committed crimes and lain with prostitutes - things that I would never do whilst sober. Alcohol also gave me confidence to try some other things, namely drugs.

I have seen mild mannered Clark Kents transform into loud, violent and obnoxious supermen after a few cups. Good people turned into animals that fight, assult and even kill. Men posessed.

Acid - avoid like the plague.

Thank god I never had regular access to this garbage - someone said earlier that an angel instructed someone to create this, I say it was a demon from hell. I had Acid around 3 times during a one month period - at the end of this I had a mild nervous break down and had quit my job - I still wanted more, but I had no one to get it from...

Pot / Cannibis - Not much better.

From around 17 till now I have smoked pot on a regular basis. Today I have some control of this demon, but it still causes problems in my life.

From 17 to around 26 I liked to smoke everyday, and not do much else. I become lazy and lost any semblence of motivation. Nights were my day and my day was for sleeping. Pot is not addictive they say, I say BULL# - oh yes you can give it up without side effects, but if you still have the means to obtain Pot you are not going to give it up. Pot dropped me out of school and wasted 10 years of my life - it still haunts me today.

Now I have a wife and 2 children, whom I love dearly. For around the first 4 years of my marriage I was still a "social drinker" (aka alcoholic), so instead of the kids spending, wonderful quality time with thier daddy on the weekend, they were seeing a hungover zombie that just wanted to sleep in and lay around for the day.

If you have young children and you get drunk on the weekends you are selfish and only care for yourself. No matter what excuses you make, this fact is undeniable.

Now I fight a constant battle with the demons of my past. I haven't drank alcohol for around 6 months, and before that relapse I hadn't drank for around 8 months. I still feel like drinking now, in fact it takes all the will I posses to stop myself sneaking out in the middle of the night like a teenager.

I haven't smoked pot for 3 weeks, but I feel like smoking pot now, the only reason I am not smoking pot is becuase I can't get any, if I could get some I would be stoned right now.

I am a pack a day cigarette smoker, this will be the next fight and I feel it will be the hardest as I have lost many battles in the past.

Tobacco and alcohol 'are more dangerous than '___''

Each is as bad as the other, all drugs have the ability to ruin your life. No matter what people say, my life has proven this as fact to me. Oh yes people are different, but not so different that the same things that happened to me cannot happen to you.

I know this - if I had never tried these drugs in the past, I would not have the need now, I would be clean. Those of you who are still clean, heed my warning, for those of you who are not - good luck.

Originally posted by ludaChris
Reguardless of how dangerous certain substances are, its not the governments job to regulate our own personal morals. It is up to each and every individual to decide for themselves whether or not they want to use certain substances or not. The Government is not here to protect us from ourselves. Just my 2 cents.

I just wanted to quote this because it is almost exactly my sentiments.

I don't smoke, do drugs or drink more than a piss-up every month or so... But I still believe people should be able to choose what they put in their body.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by CaptainLazy]

These posts about "it messed my life up so nobody else should be able to use it, ever" are really starting to get under my skin.

Don't blame society for your own screwed-up physiology or inability to make a tough decision once and a while. Believe it or not, there is such a thing as responsible use of psychedelics.

Your life will get screwed up if you eat a double bacon cheeseburger every day, too. Saying '___' and Marijuana should be illegal because they can cause harm if abused is like saying we should lower all bridges to ten feet and slow all trains to 10mph to prevent suicides.