The War In Iraq Was Worth This!!!

Kurdistan:

Those who know me on the board know that I am a diehard fan of the Kurdish cause, and I do not hide it what so ever.. because they are amazing people. Few though however even know about the Kurds.. about the brand new opportunities granted to them as a direct effect of the Iraq war.

3,000 Americans have lost their lives thus far in this war.. 3,000 men and women who went to war knowing they where going their to liberate a people, though I would bet even the now departed would be surprised by the far reaching effect of their sacrifice.

Let me give you some background on Kurdistan going back to when Saddam took control over Iraq. While they have always been persecuted in the Middle East by their neighbors, they are an ancient people that have been in the same area even before the Persian Empire. They are a race as well as a religious sect, who distinguish them form their neighbors. Under Saddam however was just another new run of genocide and mass killings. After the Gulf War I the United States went ahead with their plans to liberate the people of Iraq by taking down the government. After we inspired the people to rebel we decided not to go in.. it turns out in Gulf I we over killed, and that death toll actually looked bad on our part regardless if we where protecting Kuwait.. The world remembers the pictures from the High Way of Death.

So they rebelled against Saddam who had always persecuted them, dragging them to under ground prisons, keeping them in endless poverty and treating them as 3rd class citizens. At the same time they had to deal with Iranians attacking them, they had to also deal with the racial tensions in Turkey, who of course as you may know has had its fair share of massacres when it comes to the Kurdish people. In the Cold War the Soviet Union supported a slave trade through Syria of Kurdish people, and armed Iraqi's and Turkey to fight against the Kurdish tribes. As America pulled out Saddam came down hard, he used a nerve agent on towns that killed thousands; women and children fell dead in the streets as they suffered one of the most painful ways to die.




We put a no-fly zone over most of their major cities to prevent an all out ethnic cleansing that Saddam no doubt would have carried on, but could not help them from the poverty, starvation and disease. Few services were granted to what Saddam considered traitors.

This is Kurdistan now.. in just 3 years it has had the most unheard of, unpredicted, unnoticed economic explosions in the world.

(CBS) - Try to imagine a peaceful and stable Iraq where business is booming and Americans are beloved. Now open your eyes because 60 Minutes is going to take you to a part of Iraq which fits that description: it's called Kurdistan.

SOURCE



This is a picture of the Kurdish Parliament. That’s right, the Kurdish Territory really did adapt democracy, and they did it in style. This is their new parliament building, where real democracy has flowered seemingly over night. They have their own Prime Minister, their own government, their own laws (like banning the old Iraqi flag) a 175,000 man army fully trained, they provide 100% of their own border control in the North West East and South.

When visiting Kurdistan, one can see nation-building wherever one looks—Kurds are building their country day by day. There are more cranes here than minarets and there’s a run on cement. A new mall with 8,000 shops and stalls is going up. So is an apartment complex known as "Dream City," in which some of the units are selling for $1 million. A giant bowling alley is almost finished, and an opera house is not far behind. What’s behind the boom? Security.

While smoke clouds the sky line of Baghdad, cranes crowd the skylines of Kurdistan. America has given them absolutely nothing except release them of Saddams grasp, and in 3 years have taken a hold of their own destiny and have paved the way for their own people with little assistance from the outside world.

Asked how many American soldiers have been killed in the Kurdish-controlled area since the beginning of the war, Nechervan Barzani, the 40-year-old prime minister of what is officially called the Kurdistan Regional Government, tells Simon, "No one."

SOURCE

IMAGE SOURCE

First Austrian Flight Lands in Kurdistan
Article on Booming Economy

It should be interesting to know.. one of the largest companies in Kurdistan produces bomb blocks. Huge concrete barriers .. but they don't use many of them, they sell them to Iraq because they have no use for them.
The Once Unheard of Womens Rights in Iraq? There is in Kurdistan

So, I am interested... how many think this beautiful thing was not worth the sacrifices of this nation, of the world, of the 3,000 men who died? I for one would support it again and again.. this is spreading peace and prosperity to those who desperately wanted it. Let the rest of Iraq squabble over dirt and blasted strewn streets. If you think the disaster in Iraq is America's fault, you are dead wrong. It is the thugs in the South, that is who made the mess.. if they wanted peace and prosperity they would look up to the Kurds.

We lost 3,000 good men and women, but we liberated 5 million once suppressed Kurds.. and gave 25 million more a hope that in the future they to will have a homeland to be proud of.

Excellent thread.
You have voted Rockpuck for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

In terms of the causalities in the US has suffered in Iraq no price can be put on freedom. The sad thing is that all the progress the Kurds have made will be undone when an Islamic regime comes to power in Iraq. You have to realistic the Iraqi security forces wont cope with the insurgency after the coalition leaves and it will only be a matter of time before an Islamic regime comes to power.

Well done Rockpuck.


"You have voted Rockpuck for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month."


I saw the 60 minutes segment about Kurdistan.
It was an eye opener.

Originally posted by xpert11
Excellent thread.
You have voted Rockpuck for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

In terms of the causalities in the US has suffered in Iraq no price can be put on freedom. The sad thing is that all the progress the Kurds have made will be undone when an Islamic regime comes to power in Iraq. You have to realistic the Iraqi security forces wont cope with the insurgency after the coalition leaves and it will only be a matter of time before an Islamic regime comes to power.

Thanks for the votes guys.

Heres the thing though. There are more Kurds who full heartidly support the New "Southern Kurdistan" about 25 to 30 million over Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Armenia. Currently Kurdistan has a very well diciplined military of 175,000 with the supplies and ability to train thousands more on short notice.. in a military conflict the Northern Iraq Kurdistan could crush the new Iraqi army. The only reason Kurdistan has not been fully declared a seperate nation is three main reasons.

1. They love America and America wants to keep Iraq unified so they will stay. And yes they really do love America that is not blown out of proportion, a few groups from Kurdistan a few years ago lobbied to become a state

2. Turkey would most likely declare war, or worse yet, slaughter once again the Kurds within their own boundries. While America is an ally to the Kurds, we do not appear to be buddy buddy enough to risk open war with anyone for the Kurds.. they don't have much to give back to our government, we don't hand out charity for free.

3. They have no allies. The closest ally they can claim in the Middle East might be Israel.. only because the KDP has attacked Turkey on many occasions, fights with Iran often enough and has no problem with the Jewish state. But other then that all of their neighbors have tried to kill them off, or in Syria's case attempt to enslave them.

When America opens up air traffic to the Kurdish region like other countries are starting to do, I hope to make a trip there to see the country in person.

Assuming that Iraq was partitioned the US would still be responsible for providing air support and reinforcements when needed sure the US would be risking a war with Turkey but that's what you get for starting a dumb war. If Iraq isn't partitioned the Kurds should still get assistance so that the Islamic regime only controls southern and central Iraq.

i just want to know

why are we creating another fabricated country in the midst of a country fabricated prior to world war 1?

it just seems like this ethnic seperation is merely a quick fix
something that will eventually blow up in our faces, just like the whole saddam thing

what's the justification for creating a segregated 3 state iraq?
it's obvious that we'd primarily fund kurdistand
the saudis would fund the sunni part
and iran would fund the shiites
i don't see how this is going to help anyone in the long run

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it just seems like this ethnic seperation is merely a quick fix
something that will eventually blow up in our faces, just like the whole saddam thing

Now that Saddam is gone a way has to be found to ensure the region known as Iraq dosnt become a greater threat then it was one Saddam was in charge. The Kurds deserve to live under the umbrella of democracy and to continue the progress they have made.
Why should the Kurds live under Islamic rule just because other ethnic groups haven't made the same progress ?

WEll then Madness that would be a lack of understanding, and no offense because Kurdish history is masked with conquest. Kurdistan is currently situated on the "traditional" homeland of the Kurds.. its where they have been for a melinia .. before they where Islamic, through out the Ottoman Empire, forgotten during the partition by the West, they where never granted a homeland.



This is Kurdistan in it's whole. The current state of Kurdistan the exist in Iraq do not call them self "Kurdistan" but instead "Southern Kurdistan" .. because they still consider much of Turkey and bits of Iran to be part of Kurdistan.

Looking at that map, 5 million people live within the Iraqi borders inside S Kurdistan .. another 25-30 million more live OUTSIDE of that border.. and Kirkuk is not even included in the Kurdish territory. Yet. They will vote whether of not to be included in a few months, and the Kurdish military is ready to restor peace if the Sunnis and Shia that live there don't like it.

So.. back to your point Madness.. why partition another state?

It is actually the opposite.. it is allowing a country to form naturally as they should but is being blocked by OTHER partitioned artificially made states. Most of the 25-30 million Kurds live in Turkey, yet Turkey holds onto the land by force even though no Turk nationals live in the territory, and that Kurds are the majority, because there are two resources that Turkey MUST HAVE and is willing to fight to the death for it.

The first being water. Kurdistan would control the largest source of water in the Middle East, that Turkey currently does. Turkey is so greedy over the water they are building dams to hold it back, then will charge other nations to drink.

The next would be oil.. but more so water then anything else.. but the oil is very important.. currently Kurds steal a bit of Turkeys oil, then smuggle it out of Turkey, through Kurdistan to Iraq and Iran.. they will also control one of the largest oil fields in Iraq if they take control of Kirkuk.

And by the way, the boundry was created by Kurds, for Kurds, and the US had absolutly nothing to do with it.. we have asked them nicely to not have a border at all but that is a stupid thing to ask and we dont expect them to do otherwise.. besides we love not having to put all of those troops there.

Originally posted by xpert11

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it just seems like this ethnic seperation is merely a quick fix
something that will eventually blow up in our faces, just like the whole saddam thing

Now that Saddam is gone a way has to be found to ensure the region known as Iraq dosnt become a greater threat then it was one Saddam was in charge. The Kurds deserve to live under the umbrella of democracy and to continue the progress they have made.
Why should the Kurds live under Islamic rule just because other ethnic groups haven't made the same progress ?

Exactly.. and I am sure that if Sunnis and Shia could bring themselves to seperate from one another they could progress.. most likely not democraticly.. but at least stop the mass bloodshed.. but they want the same land and the same oil and the same power. Sunnis want what was taken from them, Shia want what was kept away from them, and Kurds hate them both and want to be left alone. They would rather build universities and teach their children English (which is their new second language) then go on suicide bombing runs.

The model form of government that the Coalition seeked after removing Saddam is coming from the Kurds rather then the region known as Iraq. Its time for governments around the world to recognize Kurdistan as you put it as an independent state. The next step would be to offer Kurdistan FTA I'm sure there would be a market for NZ diary products and the Kurds oil wouldn't do us any harm.

[edit on 21-2-2007 by xpert11]

No, it was not worth it.

The price payed, and still being payed, is extremely larger than 3000+ dead American soldiers.

A single, shiny, silver lined rivet—amongst an entirely rusty barrell, is not worthy of losing 4 fingers on the hand doing the polishing.

We can try and mitigate our guilt and shame with the fuzzy, feel good, peoples liberation rhetoric, but it really does not erase the fact, that noone is in Iraq for the Iraqi people, let alone the Kurds.

Kurd? is that made with Curry?

excuse me if this sounds insane
but if the kurds want to live in a stable and democratic nation, why don't they try to work for a stable and democratic iraq?

will only kurds be allowed in the new kurdistan?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
excuse me if this sounds insane
but if the kurds want to live in a stable and democratic nation, why don't they try to work for a stable and democratic iraq?

Thats an ease question to answer Iraq only exists on a map . It was only Saddam and his regime that held the differnt ethnic groups under one banner.
Why should the Kurds have anything do with people who are crazy enough to blow themselves up in market places ?

will only kurds be allowed in the new kurdistan?

That is up to the Kurdistan government to decide in the short - medium term I cant see the Kurds taking any refuges in.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
excuse me if this sounds insane
but if the kurds want to live in a stable and democratic nation, why don't they try to work for a stable and democratic iraq?

will only kurds be allowed in the new kurdistan?

Why should they? .. Just because Mexico is to our South should we take over their government and turn it into a state? Kurdistan is just that Land of the Kurds.

Kurdistan is a secular society, any religion can be a citizen, however Kurd is the majority. One of the largest markets in Kurdistan is tourism, Sunnis and Shia go to Kurdistan for the weekend or get aways from the violence.. they search your car very well, check all kinds of ID, make sure your of good intentions and let you through. They have stopped many people who wished to bring the troubles of the South to the North.

nextguyinline:

Kurd? is that made with Curry?

Take your ignorant bigoted comments else where, if you do not have the slightest bit of inteligent input what so ever. The way I see it you finally saw something right about the war and are standing by your flawed liberal logic. Are the "Dems" and the left not supposed to proffess they stand for human rights? or is that only around election time?

Calm down, it wasn't bigoted nor ignorant. You misunderstood.

Who said I was liberal, left, or dem? smiley's are fun to use

:edit: Well at least you agreed with me when you said this:

We don't actually care about giving them democracy as long as we get what we need

From this thread.

What made you change your mind?

[edit on 21-2-2007 by nextguyinline]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
noone is in Iraq for the Iraqi people, let alone the Kurds.

Who are you talking about?

----

The Kurds will not have their own country without a war with Syria, Turkey and Iran.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Calm down, it wasn't bigoted nor ignorant. You misunderstood.

Who said I was liberal, left, or dem?

smiley's are fun to use

:edit: Well at least you agreed with me when you said this:

We don't actually care about giving them democracy as long as we get what we need

From this thread.

What made you change your mind?

[edit on 21-2-2007 by nextguyinline]

Nothing changed my mind, if you have read any of my other post in other threads you would know I think rather lowly of our government.

What I said in that thread is that Iraq is better now then under Saddam, and that troops being used for liberation is an honorably thing, though it is not the intentions of the government. We don't care a damn about the Kurds either, I am just noting it was a great bi-product of the war, and that given the choice I would say the war would be 100% worth it to liberate people like that. Smilies are fun.

Sorry Rockpuck,

Here is the second paragraph of your OP in this thread:

.. 3,000 men and women who went to war knowing they where going their to liberate a people, though I would bet even the now departed would be surprised by the far reaching effect of their sacrifice.

That is a change of what I quoted you saying earlier.

We could argue, that you were talking about our leaders before, and are now talking about the soldiers themselves, believing they were/are there for liberation. But it's hard to determine, because pronouns are so general, and not very specific. You will have to clear that up.

If all you can do is nit pick at various 2 line sentances then I truly believe I made my point quite well actually. The troops went there thinking they where getting WMDS and liberating the people.

The government went there on their own terms, clouded in mystery though I think we can manage to imagine a few.

Any thing else Nextguyinline?

I'm not nitpicking. Just tired of the liberation rhetoric. Your point was not made with me though.

Thanks for clearing that up. I wanted to know if your comments related to seperate entities, and since you say they did, I'll accept that.

I'll end with this.

If we could have back all the lives lost in Iraq, and all the money and resources spent; I would return the Kurds to their pre-invasion conditions. Sounds harsh to you maybe, I can only hope you understand.