No F-22 for you! US confirms no FMS of Raptor

After a lot of chest thumping from certain interest groups here in Australia, the US Deputy Defence Secretary has confirmed that the US will not export the F-22 to Australia.

Although the US has never exported the F-22, Labor and some defence experts believed the US might relax its restrictions with a close ally such as Australia.

Dr Nelson discussed the range of warplane options with senior Bush administration officials during the annual Ausmin defence talks in Washington in December.

But in a letter to Dr Nelson last month, Mr England clarified US policy once and for all.

"Regarding the F-22, our current position is that the airplane will not be made available to foreign military sales," Mr England wrote.

The statement means Australia will have little choice but to hope that the F-35 is delivered on time and on budget with all of its promised capabilities.

US rules out deal on F-22

So, now that it is confirmed that the F-22 is off the shopping list (not that it really was on it for Australia), discussion will now shift to the puchase of Super Hornets, and their suitability in plugging the perceived capability gap that Australia is facing.

The way I see it is that Australia isn't too likely to be invaded by the USSR any day, so I don't see an immediate need for new aircraft. Although not from Australia myself I would assume that the Australian Air Force could wait long enough for the F-35's. It wouldn't quite be an F-22 as far as air to air combat goes, but it'd be a lot better than the F-18. Not to mention it'd be a better multirole aircraft than the F-22 is.

I agree I always thought the F-22 would be overkill (pun intended, not to mention I never though it would be exported this soon after IOC anyway).

In my other thread titled Australian Air Combat Musings, I and others go into a lot more detail of the current fighter situation in Australia, including the purchase of the Super Hornets. Love to have some more thoughts over in that thread for those who want to contribute!

Shameless link for Australian Air Combat Musings thread...

It was worth the try.

Back engineering is the worst concern.

Shameless link indeed!!

I wonder what the Japanese will do now..
Are they more 'needy' than Autralia?
Esp with all those F-22s at Kadena now.

Have they actually made it to Kadena? Last I heard the 22s still had a software problem in their nav computer. Australia is lucky they didn't get offered such a lemon of an aircraft

Originally posted by Willard856
Have they actually made it to Kadena? Last I heard the 22s still had a software problem in their nav computer. Australia is lucky they didn't get offered such a lemon of an aircraft

If it was such a lemon, I doubt the aussies would be wanting to get theior hands on one.

MOD NOTE: One liner rule observed. thanks.

Ummm, firstly I was joking. Hence the winky eye thingy. Secondly, Australia has never wanted to get their hands on the F-22. We've been JSF pretty much from the start.

Originally posted by Willard856
Ummm, firstly I was joking. Hence the winky eye thingy. Secondly, Australia has never wanted to get their hands on the F-22. We've been JSF pretty much from the start.

Chill! Chill! Dont worry about it.

Originally posted by Willard856
Have they actually made it to Kadena? Last I heard the 22s still had a software problem in their nav computer. Australia is lucky they didn't get offered such a lemon of an aircraft

Out for a bit of fishing I see..
And I see you've made a catch as well!


Now let me give it a go:
Maybe the Nav computers were messed up so they might end up in Australia anyways.
Have your lemon and eat it too!


Anyways, a question:

WHY no carrier for the Aussie Navy?i think a couple would be great
(one for each ocean )
Wikipedia gave some vague indications that the reasons for not getting a successor to the HMAS Melbourne were the Falklands War and the '1983 election'..
??!! ??!!

LOL, caught behind, deceived by a googlie...

Yeah, our last carrier was HMAS Melbourne. We were in negotiations with the brits to get one of their carriers that they were planning on paying off (didn't need it anymore) when the Falklands kicked off. Suddenly they decided they did need it, and we were left without a carrier (sold to the Chinese if I remember rightly, and turned into razor blades).

The Liberal government then lost an election, replaced by a Labor government that focused on defending the approaches to Australia. The RAAF said "Give us some Hornets to replace our Mirages, and we can do that." We sold our A-4s to the Kiwis, our Mirages to your friends to the west, and got our Hornets. Which, with a limited range, couldn't do what the RAAF said they could (mainly a fleet support issue). And so we leased our old Skyhawks back from the Kiwis, who couldn't believe their luck. The rest is, as they say, history.

We haven't got a replacement carrier because really, there isn't an operational need. Defence of Australia is our number one priority, and an aircraft carrier adds little to the way we plan to do that. And the threat simply doesn't exist that would justify such a purchase. Well, from my perspective anyways. But then I also don't think we need Super Hornets...

Originally posted by Willard856
Have they actually made it to Kadena? Last I heard the 22s still had a software problem in their nav computer. Australia is lucky they didn't get offered such a lemon of an aircraft

No not yet, but they will be there shortly. Apparently the "Geek Squad" over at Lockheed for all of their hype forgot to update the NAV software so that it could compensate for essentially going forward in time by a day (time zones). It's being updated now and it is scheduled to arrive in Kadena sometime next week.sate essentially going forward in time by a day (time zones).

I know that Australia needs a longe range strike aircraft to replace the F-111's, but apparently the F-35 doesnt have as much range. Also, hasn't the stealth capability been downgraded for the F-35? I'm starting to think that the JSF is a bad idea. I can understand why the US doesn't want to sell any F-22's, the last thing they want is one ending up in China like the F-16 did.

No the LO features of Aussie F-35's will not be "downgraded", as of now you're getting the same capability we are. Secondly the F-35 was never designed to replace something like the F-111, it was meant to replace the F-16, and it does that just fine. I don't know what Australia was thinking when they though the F-35 could replace the Aardvark, unless they think they don't need a long range/heavy hitter. If they did they would have gone for the F-15E instead of the Rhino II. Their primary focus seems to be local and theater air defense as well as limited A2G, not long range strategic attacks. So it all depends on what Australia wants versus what the F-35 brings, it unfair to compare the F-35 to the F-111 they are two totally different aircraft, no matter what bureaucrats say.

Spot on Westy. The need to threaten places like Jakarta with a long range strike has pretty much gone the way of most of our cold war thinking. We simply don't need a capability like the Pig anymore. There are more than five ways to skin a cat...

On one hand you want to defend Australia and not project any outward force.
On the other hand you want to threaten Djakarta..


The F-111 is not a defensive platform by an angle. If you want a fitting replacement, then get a Flanker Derivative or get a carrier or two with the F-35s!!



Or Get Some B-1Bs..


Or come join us in the PAK-FA program



[edit on 15-2-2007 by Daedalus3]

I never said I didn't want force projection. I said we don't need a long range strike aircraft in the Pig. There's a difference

The Indonesian Air Force would last about three days at most against the RAAF (no BVR weapons, no NCW, no US support, poor training, inadequate infrastructure, etc). The Indons have no SAMs other than MANPADs and crappy old Rapiers, their Navy is a rust bucket, their subs suck. The RAAF could set-up a tanker track over the top of Jakarta and plink whatever they want, when they want, once the F-16 and 27s disappear in a ball of flame. Hence, my assertion that maintaining the F-111 serves no useful purpose henceforth. And there simply isn't another regional country that could possible threaten Australia with an invasion, other than China (and even then their force projection ain't so good, but getting better). And if China is invading Australia, then we've all got a pretty big problem...

Evening all,

some of you have no doubt read my own post on this, "Australia denied the F-22??" (Sorry about starting a second thread like that I suffered an 'occular failure' that night, I am new to ATS afterall). Rather than confuse things I'll continue my comments here, but I suggest you have a read if you haven't already. And once you have I recommend you have a look at this link by Dr Carlo Kopp in "The Australian". www .theage.com.au/news/opinion/nelson-tries-stealth-to-win-jet-fighter-debate/2007/02/19/1171733680380.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1.

This whole saga just gets more and more "interesting" doesn't it?

Originally posted by Daedalus3
The F-111 is not a defensive platform by an angle. If you want a fitting replacement, then get a Flanker Derivative or get a carrier or two with the F-35s!!

In terms of Fighter/Bomber the best replacement option for the F-111 is the F-15E, preferably one of the upgraded version being offered. Other than price I think it’s superior to any Flanker variant for this role.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Willard856
Have they actually made it to Kadena? Last I heard the 22s still had a software problem in their nav computer. Australia is lucky they didn't get offered such a lemon of an aircraft

No not yet, but they will be there shortly. It's being updated now and it is scheduled to arrive in Kadena sometime next week.sate essentially going forward in time by a day (time zones).

Hold It Westpoint23,

F-22's at Kadenea? Since when?

I've never heard anything about plans to send Raptors to Oknawa, Japan. Right now the Raptors are in 2 locations: Edwards AFB. and Langly AFB, VA.

Sight your source! Where are you getting this from?

Tim