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Freemasonry: Related to Druidism?

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posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 04:06 PM
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First off, I am a Mason but a new member, so do not take what I say as a declaration of fact or anything even remotely close to that. This is purely speculative in nature and only wish to bring about a informative intelligent conversation from it.

I was wondering if someone else thinks Masonry in some ways resembles Druidism, or a type of druidism.

I am not saying that I think Druids when wiped out in the late 1800's to early 1900's in Ireland and northern Scotland (officially, Christian persecution began much sooner then that) that they went underground and founded Masonry. In fact, I see only a few similarities within Masonry and Druidism, the biggest relation I see is a large point of energy focused on oral tradition, to pass on the knowledge through oral presentations, to have to memorize (Grr that can be pain!) lectures to further the oral tradition. I know there are many many reasons as to why things are done the way they are, but the fact is I believe Masonry was founded in Scotland (Not England, though that is where it went public) and Scotland, especially northern Scotland had a much larger Gaelic Druid relationship.

So, am I alone in speculating that Masonry may have derived some of its traditions from druidism? Or are they on their own completely original in nature and did not take influence from surrounding beliefs?




posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 04:11 PM
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Freemasonry actually begins in ancient Egypt. At least that is what a Mason wrote in a book I read. That's wehre Hiram comes into play.

The Druids developed their own religion where it started, somewhere in the British Isles. I do not think the 2 are very much alike. About the only similarities I can think of are that both of them consider mathematics to be very important.
And yes they do both have oral traditions. But I don't think one came from the other.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 04:20 PM
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I would disagree that Masonry in its self came from Egypt.. I believe alot of the symbolism originates in that region, but as far as traditions I see European all over it, and as for the stories and such, most are either faintly or very much so based on the Old Testiment, which may be why some of the symbolism is Egyptian or Middle Eastern in nature.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 04:30 PM
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Here is what one of your fellow Masons, Manly P. Hall, has to say:

"According to Mason Manly P. Hall's book Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians:

It is now generally acknowledged that the Egyptians, of all the ancient peoples, were the most learned in the Occult sciences of Nature. The wisest of philosophers from other nations visited Egypt to be initiated in the sacred Mysteries by the priests of Thebes, Memphis, and Hermopolis.

There is indeed, as we have established, a very definite link between the Egyptian Mystery Religion and the Masonic Lodge. This link can be readily established from the words of Masonic authors and testimony can be provided to remove all reasonable doubt. In the book, The Meaning of Masonry, by Past Provincial Grand Registrar, W.L. Wilmshurst, we find the statement:

I am acquainted, for instance, with an Egyptian ceremonial system, some 5,000 years old, which taught precisely the same things as Masonry does,...

In the book, Freemasonry Its Hidden Meaning, by George H. Steinmetz, we find the statement:

www.the7thfire.com...

Regardless of the origin of the modern lodge, or of the name "Freemason," we can, after freeing the symbolism of modern adaptations, discern in Freemasonry the outline of the teachings of the ancient mysteries of Egypt.

In the same book Mr. Steinmetz makes the statement connecting Freemasonry and the Egyptian mysteries.

If the symbols can be consistently interpreted in this manner, throughout the three degrees we have confirmed Freemasonry to be the reincarnation of the Ancient Mysteries of Egypt".

33" Mason Manly P. Hall relates the efforts of early Masonic historians to link Hiram Abiff to the Egyptian Mystery Religion."

I don't claim to be an authority, just reporting what I've heard/read. I'm sure some of the elder Freemasons can share some information with you.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 04:57 PM
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While there are references that from Egypt we got alot of our symbols, stories and traditions, there are also writers who say Masons evolved other wise. One author who mentions druids

I found this to be an interesting article on culture transitions and misconceptions in general, and relating to Freemasonry

freemasonry.dept.shef.ac.uk...

Even Pike and other Masons have mentioned it in various passages, including in Morals and Dogma, and in this passage:


"our mode of teaching the principles of our profession [Masonry] is derived from the Druids ... and our chief emblems originally came from Egypt ..." William Hutchinson, The Spirit of Masonry



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 05:02 PM
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Thanks Rockpuck, I'll be reading it. I was just making a guess, adn I appreciate the information. Thanks for the link, I look forward to reading it.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
Here is what one of your fellow Masons, Manly P. Hall, has to say:


Much of Hall's work is not historically accurate. Far more realistic histories of the fraternity can be read in "The Builders" by Dr. Joseph Fort Newton, and "A Comprehensive View of Freemasonry" by Henry Wilson Coil.

As for the OP's question, Thomas Paine once wrote a pamphlet attempting to link Masonry with the Druids. It can be read on Deist.com.

As for actual history, we really don't much about the Druids. It is impossible to establish a Druidic-Masonic link, and such a one would be highly unlikely.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 05:33 PM
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There's also a short article to be foundhere



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 07:10 PM
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Thank you guys for responding. I just see the link with being from theoretically Scotland, which still had ties to "Gaelic" religions around the time that Masonry was announced publicly... and since we do not know exactly when Masonry started at all, that there may be a link with Druidism, along with many other philosophies.

But like you said, we know little about Druidism because the Druids did not write their beliefs and practices down regularly, but we do know from archaeology, finding buildings, clothing, ritualistic items that there was a druid social structure in the Celtic world, and some of that is similar to what is seen in Masonry.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Thank you guys for responding. I just see the link with being from theoretically Scotland, which still had ties to "Gaelic" religions around the time that Masonry was announced publicly... and since we do not know exactly when Masonry started at all, that there may be a link with Druidism, along with many other philosophies.


The earliest records of Masonry are dated from the 14th century, well after the beginning of the Christian era. Indeed, the old Masonic documents make multiple references to the "Holy Church" and "Holy Religion". It wasn't until the 17th century that we can see non-Christian elements emerging.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 10:56 PM
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Hmm.. could that technically make Masonry possibly a protostant break off of the Church?

While the date of Masonry is important to know, yet hard to find exactly, the more important question would be WHY it was created. Perhaps mixing local ideologies with that which the Church brought in. While the Church was very prominant in Britain during the 14th century, so was Paganism's of various kinds, along with the typical superstitions and such. The things I see in common with the Druid is oral tradition, the 3 degrees and the sense of on the third degree you officially pass into full acceptance to know the "secrets" of the craft, like in Druidry, druids (bards and priest, also scientist and various other tasks) also passed through degrees of sorts and had to go through an initiation process.



posted on Feb, 15 2007 @ 11:29 AM
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Freemasonry has alot of influence's, hence why you probarly can see the druadic connection. Because Scotland was never fully conquered by the Romans I suspect that certain rituals were being preformed while the rest of Europe was being clamped down upon.

When Christianity finally took a hold, the Covens went underground, and this is a historical fact. There's nothing in writing to prove it, just word of mouth spread down throughout the ages, between family's and trusted friends. Remember at this time, Scotland was a clan system, which were probarly more tight knit than modern day fraternitys could ever be.

I know of a few Covens in my area who meet on a weekly basis but they are so secrative they make Freemasonry look like gossip's. I've also heard rumours that in the far north of Scotland there are certain rituals still being performed to this day. If you've ever seen the movie The Wicker Man you may get the idea on what I'm trying to say.



posted on Feb, 15 2007 @ 01:31 PM
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Your absolutly right that the Covens went underground, even past liturary writers and statesmen from Ireland and Scotland have admitted partaking in "Druid" activity up till the early 1900's when it really just disapeard. The movie wicker man has a little bit of truth in it, in regards to sacrificing to the god for harvest and such, and that it was based on a Celtic religion, though not Druidism.. There has been more then one Celtic religion, that one was not based on Druidism (it was also a horrible movie imo) also I am unsure if women could even be bards or in other words Druids.



posted on Feb, 15 2007 @ 09:17 PM
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Freemasonry: Related to Druidism?




The answer: Yes


See the works of Godfrey Higgins.

He was a FreeMason and a Druid.

So he would be a legitimate authority on the subject.

Start with his Celtic Druids and then on to his Anacalypsis.


Excerpts: Anacalypsis

I've posted many very interesting quotes from this work here at ATS.



And Manly P. Hall(who cited Godfrey Higgins) would be good to study as well.

As well as the writings of Albert Churchward(who cited Godfrey Higgins), Hargrave Jennings(who cited Godfrey Higgins) John Yarker's(who cited Godfrey Higgins) "Arcane Schools", and H.P. Blavatsky's(who cited Godfrey Higgins) "Isis Inveiled" and "Secret Doctrine".

Gerald Massey's works might have some great info as well.

Albert Pike's writings may have some related info too.


Another interesting link: freemasonry.bcy.ca...



I wonder why it is that so many people overlook the works of Godfrey Higgins, and turn to profane "scholars" and witches for info on the subject?


Most modern "Druid" pagan-cults are just copy-cats, and have no real connection to the Ancient Tantric Nagas of the Brotherhood of the Serpent that the Druids were representatives of.




[edit on 16-2-2007 by Tamahu]



posted on Feb, 15 2007 @ 09:29 PM
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*Note: Again, I'm not saying that all "paganism" is degenerated. It is just that pure paganism that is not tainted by black magic, is now only found in small pockets around the world and is very hard to find*




Also, Rockpuck, the movie "The Wicker Man" is an example of a pagan cult that was a corrupt off-shoot of the Druids.

The original Druids were Buddhistic in their morality and Religious Rites, and would not have taken part in such evil things.

Unfortunately it's priests later became corrupt and degenerated.


The original wickerman ritual of the Druids was not Human sacrifice.



Here's a positive example of the wickerman ritual:




The Mysteries of Halloween


...The American tradition of Halloween is understood to be a direct descendant of the Celtic tradition in the United Kingdom. According to this tradition November 1 marked the beginning of the New Year and the coming of winter. The festival of Samhain (“summer’s end”) was celebrated the night before the New Year, presided over by the Lord of the Dead (Welsh = Arawn, Irish = Donn). The Celts traditionally recognized a twofold division of the year, summer running from Beltane (“fire of Bel” = Belenus, Celtic Christ), the Vernal Equinox to Samhain, (the Autumnal Equinox), and winter running from Samhain to Beltane. During this festival, Celts believed the souls of the dead returned to mingle with the living and food was left on the doors for them.


In order to scare away the evil spirits, people would wear masks and light bonfires. Large wickerwork figures were also constructed and burnt in mock sacrifice. It is said in the exoteric tradition that the wickerwork figures represented a vegetation spirit. The symbol of the figure with the appearance (empty shell = Klipoth) of a man can be readily recognized esoterically as the aspect of an initiate that must die (within the Alchemical Fires / Forge of Vulcan) in order for the real man to be born (explained below)...






But the recent Burning Man cult, is an example of a contemporary pagan group of black magicians, who profane the Ancient Mysteries with a bunch of nonsense.







[edit on 15-2-2007 by Tamahu]



posted on Feb, 16 2007 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
The earliest records of Masonry are dated from the 14th century, well after the beginning of the Christian era. Indeed, the old Masonic documents make multiple references to the "Holy Church" and "Holy Religion". It wasn't until the 17th century that we can see non-Christian elements emerging.




Do you recall reading anything by Albert Pike about the Druids?



posted on Feb, 16 2007 @ 04:17 PM
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He mentions them briefly in Morals and Dogma, but does not dwell on the topic much. Also there is no actual proof that Indians inhabited Ireland / England? .. The first inhabitants of the region over 6,000 years ago where most likely phonecians, Greeks or even persians that migrated north settling as they went. Also, Druidism has little in common with Hindu or Buddist, I cannot see at all what your talking about? Many cultures around the world relate the snake to being a god of some kind, or a influencial part in their religion in some way.

However, your other link cited

'Considering that the May (Maypole) was eminently the great sign of Druidism, as the Cross was to Christianity, is there anything forced or far-fetched in the conjecture that the adherents to Druidism should take the name of Men of May or May’s-sons?'"
Which I believe is the works of Higgins? In regards to Masonry, I see more in common with druidism then anyother group.. and usually groups tend to morph from other exisiting groups, which in turn morphed from some other group.. and rarely are ideas brought out of no where and preceived so openely like Masonry.



posted on Feb, 16 2007 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Which I believe is the works of Higgins?



No.

Godfrey Higgins' works are very thorough, and more interesting.


As I've said, he's both a Druid and FreeMason; and has been cited by the most learned of Occultists and FreeMasons, such as:


Hargrave Jennings, Gerald Massey, John Yarker, H.P. Blavatsky, Albert Churchward, Mackey, Manly P. Hall, and many others I'm sure.




This may be interesting:

en.wikipedia.org...



But I would start with Godfrey Higgins' Celtic Druids, and then on to his Anacalypsis.


He wrote Celtic Druids before he was Initiated in a Masonic Lodge.

And I believe he was Initiated in a Masonic Lodge while he was writing Anacalypsis(which took him about 30 years to write).


To first read his Celtic Druids makes the more-interesting Anacalypsis much more comprehensible.





[edit on 16-2-2007 by Tamahu]



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
*Note: Again, I'm not saying that all "paganism" is degenerated. It is just that pure paganism that is not tainted by black magic, is now only found in small pockets around the world and is very hard to find*




Also, Rockpuck, the movie "The Wicker Man" is an example of a pagan cult that was a corrupt off-shoot of the Druids.

The original Druids were Buddhistic in their morality and Religious Rites, and would not have taken part in such evil things.

Unfortunately it's priests later became corrupt and degenerated.







[edit on 15-2-2007 by Tamahu]


Speaking of Buddhism........I started reading a lot of Gandhi's works a few years ago. This is something I have learned about this particular religion and believe me................I am no religious scholar............quite the opposite. Buddhism seems to be one of the most peaceful religions around. Whenever you read about wars, dissent, evil, corruption.......you hardly ever hear about a Buddhist being part of it. That is what has interested me in Gandhi's teachings. I always read his quotes whenever I feel sad, depressed or overwhelmed.


Oh yeah................leave it to priests to corrupt and degenerate.
The higher up the ladder, the more corrupt it seems. You would think it would be the opposite.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
Here is what one of your fellow Masons, Manly P. Hall, has to say:

"According to Mason Manly P. Hall's book Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians:



Manly P. Hall? I don't know.............there is something about his name that makes me think.......Saturday Night Live.



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